Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year?

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Does a ring put CP3 in your top 20?

yes
8
20%
no
19
46%
has to be fmvp
3
7%
already have him in my top 20
11
27%
 
Total votes: 41

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Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#1 » by Cavsfansince84 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:27 pm

?
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#2 » by ice9 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:48 pm

I'm using the top 100 player project as a jumping off point, Paul was ranked 23rd. 16-22 (not in order) includes Admiral, Dr J, Malone, Malone, Barkley, Durant, and Mikan. He would need to pass 3 of these people to jump into top 20. But wait! Curry was at 24, and I have Curry ahead of Paul, which means he needs to jump ahead of 4 players. I just don't see a ring this far out of his prime counting for enough to jump that much, if at all. Players ahead of him just too good. Top 25 with a clear impact on winning nothing to be ashamed of, though.

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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#3 » by jdzimme3 » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:51 pm

No, but a finals mvp probably gets him top 30
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#4 » by falcolombardi » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:55 pm

i would have him top 20 or close to it regardless, 1 ring won paat his prime wont change my evaluation of his career any more that 2011 would for kidd or 2013 for ray allen

winning rings in smaller roles as a older star post prime doesnt move the needle much, valuable longevity does. ring or not
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#5 » by Colbinii » Wed Jun 9, 2021 11:59 pm

Yeah, I think it does for me but Durant may bump him out.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#6 » by Whopper_Sr » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:38 am

Already in my top 20. This year is shaping up to be another All NBA level season at minimum. If he’s the clear best player on the Suns for the championship run, I’ll have to start thinking about his placement alongside the likes of Dirk and Kobe.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#7 » by Matt15 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 12:59 am

No I have Barkley ahead of Paul
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#8 » by No-more-rings » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:20 am

No, why would a season when he’s well past his prime make a significant difference? If someone has him top 20, that’s fine I’d disagree but it shouldn’t be because of this season.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#9 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:37 am

No-more-rings wrote:No, why would a season when he’s well past his prime make a significant difference? If someone has him top 20, that’s fine I’d disagree but it shouldn’t be because of this season.


I don't see him being past prime as a reason to negate any sort of bump for winning a ring. Given that Phx missed the playoffs last year and then a year after adding Paul are champs that's a huge jump regardless of whether this is prime CP3 or not imo. I'm not arguing he should be top 20 if he gets a ring this year either, just that I think it's a big feather on his resume's cap.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#10 » by Colbinii » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:43 am

No-more-rings wrote:No, why would a season when he’s well past his prime make a significant difference? If someone has him top 20, that’s fine I’d disagree but it shouldn’t be because of this season.


1. Do you think only Peak-level prime seasons matter?

2. Do you value seasons where players are around top 10-15 players in an all-time sense?

3. For what level of play do those seasons (Top 10-15 in a season) matter?

For example, Paul Pierces entire prime is top 10-15 and he is seen as a top 50 player. Why would those level of seasons not matter for CP3?

It seems you are penalizing Paul for having many seasons above this level of play.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#11 » by No-more-rings » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:45 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:No, why would a season when he’s well past his prime make a significant difference? If someone has him top 20, that’s fine I’d disagree but it shouldn’t be because of this season.


I don't see him being past prime as a reason to negate any sort of bump for winning a ring. Given that Phx missed the playoffs last year and then a year after adding Paul are champs that's a huge jump regardless of whether this is prime CP3 or not imo. I'm not arguing he should be top 20 if he gets a ring this year either, just that I think it's a big feather on his resume's cap.

I think there’s too much narrative/winning bias for any type of serious bump. Curry and KD for example are two guys seen in the same range as him all time, and they just had clearly better seasons.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#12 » by FC93 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:50 am

Looking at the recent top 100 here, my inclination is to say that all of the 22 players ranked ahead of him are better (the two I'm really not sure about are Mikan, not because I doubt it but just because I really don't know that era of basketball, and Moses Malone, who I haven't really watched or researched a whole lot). I'm also inclined to say that Curry and Nash are definitely better, and Wade and Stockton might be. I guess a great playoffs run could push me over the edge and decide Paul is better than Nash/Malone/Wade/Stockton, which would put him at 23 for me, but it's tough to see him also passing 3 of Barkley/Curry/Durant/Mikan to get into my top 20, and maybe I look into Pettit and decide he's better...

So no. And if I take the above for granted and put Paul at 23, maybe he can pass Barkley and/or Mikan, but Curry and Durant are accruing value much more quickly at this part of their careers, and it's tough to see Paul catching someone like Julius Erving or Jerry West or Dirk, who are the guys I'm inclined to put into that next tier.

Put another way, Paul is going to need to have a few more *really good* seasons to break into my top 20, but he will almost certainly do enough to get into my top 25 if he isn't there already.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#13 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:51 am

No-more-rings wrote:
I think there’s too much narrative/winning bias for any type of serious bump. Curry and KD for example are two guys seen in the same range as him all time, and they just had clearly better seasons.


Curry I agree with, KD I don't agree. He only played in 35 games and if CP3 gets a ring I would say he elevated his supporting cast better than KD did in the playoffs. I don't see that as winning bias either. Winning has to count for something.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#14 » by No-more-rings » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:54 am

Colbinii wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:No, why would a season when he’s well past his prime make a significant difference? If someone has him top 20, that’s fine I’d disagree but it shouldn’t be because of this season.


1. Do you think only Peak-level prime seasons matter?

2. Do you value seasons where players are around top 10-15 players in an all-time sense?

3. For what level of play do those seasons (Top 10-15 in a season) matter?

For example, Paul Pierces entire prime is top 10-15 and he is seen as a top 50 player. Why would those level of seasons not matter for CP3?

It seems you are penalizing Paul for having many seasons above this level of play.

I’m not going to answer every one of those since I don’t think there’s a simple or one size fits all to those questions.

This board has told me for years and years to look at level of play and not neccesarily rings. Why does a ring in itself make a big impact when it’s clear this Suns team is more by committee than a team led by a clear superstar? If someone random was in Paul’s place having a similar impact, I don’t think he’d be getting this much credit.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#15 » by No-more-rings » Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:57 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
I think there’s too much narrative/winning bias for any type of serious bump. Curry and KD for example are two guys seen in the same range as him all time, and they just had clearly better seasons.


Curry I agree with, KD I don't agree. He only played in 35 games and if CP3 gets a ring I would say he elevated his supporting cast better than KD did in the playoffs. I don't see that as winning bias either. Winning has to count for something.

See you’re proving my point. You think Cp3 averaging 11/8 is elevating his team more than KD ever did? I find that absurd and indefensible.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#16 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:05 am

No-more-rings wrote:
See you’re proving my point. You think Cp3 averaging 11/8 is elevating his team more than KD ever did? I find that absurd and indefensible.


I didn't say ever did. My point is that CP3 just finished 4th or 5th in mvp voting while lifting Phx from also ran status to the 2 seed in the west while KD only played in 35 games. I would also say that KD has overall(even if you subtract Harden) probably a better supporting cast so that if CP3's team does win it all that he had the bigger impact on his team winning in the postseason. Great pg play along with great defensive play usually transcends box score stats by quite a bit.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#17 » by No-more-rings » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:09 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote: I would also say that KD has overall(even if you subtract Harden) probably a better supporting cast so that if CP3's team does win it all that he had the bigger impact on his team winning in the postseason. Great pg play along with great defensive play usually transcends box score stats by quite a bit.

Are you implying that Paul has performed better than KD these playoffs?
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#18 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:12 am

No-more-rings wrote:Are you implying that Paul has performed better than KD these playoffs?


I'm implying that if Phx wins a title that yes he will have. Right now his ps stats are heavily weighted towards a 1st round in which he wasn't that good which is one of 4 rounds it takes to win a title.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#19 » by No-more-rings » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:15 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Are you implying that Paul has performed better than KD these playoffs?


I'm implying that if Phx wins a title that yes he will have. Right now his ps stats are heavily weighted towards a 1st round in which he wasn't that good which is one of 4 rounds it takes to win a title.

Until we see how he actually performs i don't see how you can possibly conclude that.
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Re: Will you have CP3 as top 20 all time with a ring this year? 

Post#20 » by Cavsfansince84 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:19 am

No-more-rings wrote:Until we see how he actually performs i don't see how you can possibly conclude that.


We do have to see to some degree and when I mentioned it I was also factoring it into the fact that KD only played 35 rs games thus why I felt that CP3 this year would have had a better year than KD did.

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