Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe

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Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hawkeem or Kobe

Bird
27
54%
Kobe
6
12%
Hakeem
17
34%
 
Total votes: 50

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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#21 » by 70sFan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:19 am

All-time, I have Hakeem the highest and quite clearly so. I have Olajuwon 7th all-time, with Bird at 11th spot and Kobe around 15 range.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#22 » by Jaivl » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:21 am

Hakeem 5-8
Kobe 10-11
Bird 12

Hakeem is a tier ahead of the other two, I'd say. Kobe's a tier below by peak, but he catches up to Bird in longevity.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#23 » by SNPA » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:31 am

70sFan wrote:All-time, I have Hakeem the highest and quite clearly so. I have Olajuwon 7th all-time, with Bird at 11th spot and Kobe around 15 range.

It continues to strike me how low you rate Bird. Ten better basketball players than Bird?

Any Bird film I’ve ever seen says there can not be ten. A few? Sure, that’s easily submitted and defended. But ten?

I don’t know how you get there without a massive valuation on longevity and specialty because if it’s peak/prime and all around basketball ability there is zero case for ten better players than Bird.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#24 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:35 am

SNPA wrote:
70sFan wrote:All-time, I have Hakeem the highest and quite clearly so. I have Olajuwon 7th all-time, with Bird at 11th spot and Kobe around 15 range.

It continues to strike me how low you rate Bird. Ten better basketball players than Bird?

Any Bird film I’ve ever seen says there can not be ten. A few? Sure, that’s easily submitted and defended. But ten?

I don’t know how you get there without a massive valuation on longevity and specialty because if it’s peak/prime and all around basketball ability there is zero case for ten better players than Bird.


Dunno, I don't have him in my top ten either. And he's more likely to rank worse not better.

What film is this?
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#25 » by SNPA » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:43 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
SNPA wrote:
70sFan wrote:All-time, I have Hakeem the highest and quite clearly so. I have Olajuwon 7th all-time, with Bird at 11th spot and Kobe around 15 range.

It continues to strike me how low you rate Bird. Ten better basketball players than Bird?

Any Bird film I’ve ever seen says there can not be ten. A few? Sure, that’s easily submitted and defended. But ten?

I don’t know how you get there without a massive valuation on longevity and specialty because if it’s peak/prime and all around basketball ability there is zero case for ten better players than Bird.


Dunno, I don't have him in my top ten either. And he's more likely to rank worse not better.

What film is this?

Any film. Every film I’ve watched of Bird shows a basketball Einstein. An all around skilled savant, a born intuitive genius that makes plays on both sides of the ball with vision beyond what seems possible.

He is a threat anywhere and always and dominates a game without even needing the ball. He makes everyone around him better than any other player except Russell. It is inconceivable to me that there are ten better players. Half of ten is the highest number entertain-able IMO.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#26 » by migya » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:50 am

As much as I value the older eras, context is everything and Olajuwon did well with so little on his teams and Kobe had a great run after Shaq left, doing well with little on his teams. Olajuwon did more so I put him ahead but Kobe is about equal to Bird as well as Magic. Seems like what Kobe did, especially from 2005 to 2010 is undervalued.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#27 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:57 am

SNPA wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
SNPA wrote:It continues to strike me how low you rate Bird. Ten better basketball players than Bird?

Any Bird film I’ve ever seen says there can not be ten. A few? Sure, that’s easily submitted and defended. But ten?

I don’t know how you get there without a massive valuation on longevity and specialty because if it’s peak/prime and all around basketball ability there is zero case for ten better players than Bird.


Dunno, I don't have him in my top ten either. And he's more likely to rank worse not better.

What film is this?

Any film. Every film I’ve watched of Bird shows a basketball Einstein. An all around skilled savant, a born intuitive genius that makes plays on both sides of the ball with vision beyond what seems possible.

He is a threat anywhere and always and dominates a game without even needing the ball. He makes everyone around him better than any other player except Russell. It is inconceivable to me that there are ten better players. Half of ten is the highest number entertain-able IMO.

I mean, he is all those things you said in bold. There has been more than 10 great basketball players.

Bird being ranked as a great player in films is not really saying much. For one, those films are probably about Bird so naturally they'll be positive.

Bird was a top ten player when he played, but other great players have emerged since then. And the 80s has a disconnect where a lot of players prior to Bird may have been overlooked. Mainstream consensus is much slower (though Bird is falling down in the rankings faster than say Magic on a mainstream level), but it's not that crazy for Bird to fall out of the top ten these days.

He's also incredibly iconic and has won a lot of rings which certainly helps his prestige. There was a time when many people would rank him above a less iconic player like Kareem (and many people still do because once people are conditioned to do something they don't care to change), but it would be very difficult to make a rational argument on Bird > Abdul-Jabar.


Hardly any films are going to make a serious ranking and really iron out why the rankings are what they are. That's not what they're if the films are dedicated to the top ten all time.

As for your question, a new respect for Oscar Robertson and Jerry West have pushed me to rank them over Bird. I think as more people learn about them their stock is going to rise more.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#28 » by 70sFan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:01 am

SNPA wrote:
70sFan wrote:All-time, I have Hakeem the highest and quite clearly so. I have Olajuwon 7th all-time, with Bird at 11th spot and Kobe around 15 range.

It continues to strike me how low you rate Bird. Ten better basketball players than Bird?

Any Bird film I’ve ever seen says there can not be ten. A few? Sure, that’s easily submitted and defended. But ten?

I don’t know how you get there without a massive valuation on longevity and specialty because if it’s peak/prime and all around basketball ability there is zero case for ten better players than Bird.

I mean, I'm not that odd here compared to the others. You want a deep analysis on how to have Larry Bird outside top 10? Simply look at Ben Taylor's list, he's extremely high on Bird (higher than me) and yet he has Bird 11th... the same spot as I do.

How can I have 10 players higher than someone as good as Bird? It's not that hard, because NBA history is full of great players. This is my top 10:

Kareem
LeBron
Russell
Jordan
Duncan
Wilt
Hakeem
Shaq
Magic
Garnett

I know you won't agree with Garnett spot, but among the 9 I mentioned - who do you think has no case over Bird?

It's not that I'm low on Bird, but I prefer different archetypes than his. I value ATG defensive bigs very highly, that's why I have 6 such players over Bird. I also don't agree that Bird is some kind of defensive savant, he was smart help defender but he was never elite on that end. Add to that questionable longevity/durability and inconsistent offensive output and you have reasons why I have Bird lower than you.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#29 » by SNPA » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:16 am

migya wrote:As much as I value the older eras, context is everything and Olajuwon did well with so little on his teams and Kobe had a great run after Shaq left, doing well with little on his teams. Olajuwon did more so I put him ahead but Kobe is about equal to Bird as well as Magic. Seems like what Kobe did, especially from 2005 to 2010 is undervalued.

Kobe is the fourth best player during his era, max.

Shaq/Duncan/James

For Bird, it doesn’t matter what you do in any direction anywhere in the court. Play off him, ATG shooter and you’ll pay. Get up on him or double him, ATG passer/playmaker. Post ups, cuts, flashes it doesn’t matter. Big defender, small defender, weak side help or not. A bruiser of a rebounder averaging ten a game playing out of position to accommodate teammates in a tough era, a team defensive force making plays all over the court, he will pick you clean or block your shot and drop a 2/1 assist to turnover ratio on you. He’d out smack talk you and if needed throw literal blows with malice to defend his turf. His teammates loved him. His legends proceeded him, he won most psychology advantages before tip off. He is big and strong and is the first to hit the floor for a loose ball. He has unmatched hand eye coordination and plays not just hurt but injured. And he has a top level (MJ comparable) will to win, plus he is the definition of clutch.

There aren’t ten better.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#30 » by fpliii » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:23 am

s0ciety wrote:
fpliii wrote:Probably Hakeem. Rough tiers:

Jordan/Russell
Hakeem/Shaq/Magic
LeBron/Kareem/Garnett/Duncan
Bird/Curry/West
Kobe/Durant/Robinson/Oscar
Wilt/Paul/Nash/Dirk



LeBron and Kareem Tier 3?
What is the reasoning here ? (No judgement on my part, I'm just curious of your criteria)

Haven't done a proper GOAT list in a while, kind of a stream of consciousness. My thinking was just to group the four guys with tremendous longevity together. It was mostly just a mental exercise to see where I slot Hakeem/Bird/Kobe. Deleted it for now.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#31 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:40 am

SNPA wrote:
migya wrote:As much as I value the older eras, context is everything and Olajuwon did well with so little on his teams and Kobe had a great run after Shaq left, doing well with little on his teams. Olajuwon did more so I put him ahead but Kobe is about equal to Bird as well as Magic. Seems like what Kobe did, especially from 2005 to 2010 is undervalued.

Kobe is the fourth best player during his era, max.

Shaq/Duncan/James

For Bird, it doesn’t matter what you do in any direction anywhere in the court. Play off him, ATG shooter and you’ll pay. Get up on him or double him, ATG passer/playmaker. Post ups, cuts, flashes it doesn’t matter. Big defender, small defender, weak side help or not. A bruiser of a rebounder averaging ten a game playing out of position to accommodate teammates in a tough era, a team defensive force making plays all over the court, he will pick you clean or block your shot and drop a 2/1 assist to turnover ratio on you. He’d out smack talk you and if needed throw literal blows with malice to defend his turf. His teammates loved him. His legends proceeded him, he won most psychology advantages before tip off. He is big and strong and is the first to hit the floor for a loose ball. He has unmatched hand eye coordination and plays not just hurt but injured. And he has a top level (MJ comparable) will to win, plus he is the definition of clutch.

There aren’t ten better.

I mean he still had weaknesses and lacked strengths. He wasn't the perfect player. He couldn't get easy buckets consistently, and it shows in the post season where his shooting was inconsistent. He is nowhere near the greatest defender of all time while many GOAT contenders are, and he's excellent off the ball but isn't ranking at all as a ball handler. He retired relatively early.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#32 » by Jaivl » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:57 am

In terms of "sustained level of prime" it's extremely difficult to leave Bird out of a top 10, dude had a 9 year stretch of ultra high level play with basically no interruptions.

Among players with comparable peaks, Duncan has 2000 and 2006, Garnett has 2007, Shaq had injuries nearly every year, Wilt has 1965, Walton has *every year*, Curry has 2018 and 2020, Jordan retired, etc. Meanwhile, Bird played at >90% basically always.

Of course, for me you either go "best player at their best" or jump to "best player over their whole career" (where Bird lacks in longevity harming his total value), doesn't really make sense to stop in the middle.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#33 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:29 am

I have all of them within 5 spots of each other. I have Bird first among them but Hakeem is very close as well.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#34 » by 70sFan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:30 am

Jaivl wrote:In terms of "sustained level of prime" it's extremely difficult to leave Bird out of a top 10, dude had a 9 year stretch of ultra high level play with basically no interruptions.

Among players with comparable peaks, Duncan has 2000 and 2006, Garnett has 2007, Shaq had injuries nearly every year, Wilt has 1965, Walton has *every year*, Curry has 2018 and 2020, Jordan retired, etc. Meanwhile, Bird played at >90% basically always.

Of course, for me you either go "best player at their best" or jump to "best player over their whole career" (where Bird lacks in longevity harming his total value), doesn't really make sense to stop in the middle.

It depends on how high you are on 1980-83 Bird, because I view him as short of GOAT-level play. His offense wasn't generational yet then and he struggled on offense against quality defense. He couldn't create his shots on consistent basis and although his defense was decent, it had exploitable holes as well.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#35 » by Jaivl » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:04 am

70sFan wrote:
Jaivl wrote:In terms of "sustained level of prime" it's extremely difficult to leave Bird out of a top 10, dude had a 9 year stretch of ultra high level play with basically no interruptions.

Among players with comparable peaks, Duncan has 2000 and 2006, Garnett has 2007, Shaq had injuries nearly every year, Wilt has 1965, Walton has *every year*, Curry has 2018 and 2020, Jordan retired, etc. Meanwhile, Bird played at >90% basically always.

Of course, for me you either go "best player at their best" or jump to "best player over their whole career" (where Bird lacks in longevity harming his total value), doesn't really make sense to stop in the middle.

It depends on how high you are on 1980-83 Bird, because I view him as short of GOAT-level play. His offense wasn't generational yet then and he struggled on offense against quality defense. He couldn't create his shots on consistent basis and although his defense was decent, it had exploitable holes as well.

Yeah I don't mean GOAT tier, but even at his "worst" he was at least top 3-4 in the league, no less. Only prime Russell, Kareem, Magic, LeBron, Jordan and Wilt can really say that, which are the infamous "immortal 6" + LeBron.

I think that's their argument, anyway.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#36 » by migya » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:41 am

SNPA wrote:
migya wrote:As much as I value the older eras, context is everything and Olajuwon did well with so little on his teams and Kobe had a great run after Shaq left, doing well with little on his teams. Olajuwon did more so I put him ahead but Kobe is about equal to Bird as well as Magic. Seems like what Kobe did, especially from 2005 to 2010 is undervalued.

Kobe is the fourth best player during his era, max.

Shaq/Duncan/James

For Bird, it doesn’t matter what you do in any direction anywhere in the court. Play off him, ATG shooter and you’ll pay. Get up on him or double him, ATG passer/playmaker. Post ups, cuts, flashes it doesn’t matter. Big defender, small defender, weak side help or not. A bruiser of a rebounder averaging ten a game playing out of position to accommodate teammates in a tough era, a team defensive force making plays all over the court, he will pick you clean or block your shot and drop a 2/1 assist to turnover ratio on you. He’d out smack talk you and if needed throw literal blows with malice to defend his turf. His teammates loved him. His legends proceeded him, he won most psychology advantages before tip off. He is big and strong and is the first to hit the floor for a loose ball. He has unmatched hand eye coordination and plays not just hurt but injured. And he has a top level (MJ comparable) will to win, plus he is the definition of clutch.

There aren’t ten better.



I think Bird is absolutely an alltime great that is unique and unmatched in some ways. He made McHale better than what he was and because of Bird others on his team were better than they would have been BUT his teammates were better than almost all of Olajuwon's and Kobe's and it allowed him to win like he did.

Like in my other thread comparing Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson and Ewing, replace Olajuwon and Kobe with Bird, relatively speaking as they play different positions, and how good does he do? He wouldn't win a championship with teammates of the caliber that Olajuwon had and probably wouldn't win more than the two championships Kobe got without Shaq. That context shows alot.

Bird was mostly anaverage defender and not as good as the other two on that end. He wasn't quite as good one on one either. Shooting and playmaking he does better but with only playing 13 years, as great as he was, it is a little less than the other two. Olajuwon was great from 1985 to 1998, Kobe was great from 2000 to 2013. Not much more prime but their other seasons weren't bad and only as to their careers.

Interesting that advanced stats put Kobe well behind the other two.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#37 » by Odinn21 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:46 am

In terms of quality, I don't think that Bird was goat material. He also falls short in longevity department. But he had one of the most complete primes ever.

Bird's prime was basically from his rookie season to 1987-88, that's 9 seasons of prime with only blips being his performance issues. He played 79 games per reg. season and afaik he did not miss a single postseason game.
His prime trajectory is pretty much a plateau. He had some issues in his early days in the league but he just got better and better and he stayed on that level for quite some time.

When we compare Bird to players troubled with durability issues such as O'Neal (he missed 15+ games in regular seasons 5 times from 1995 to 2003 which rates more than half of the seasons), Duncan (missed the playoffs in 2000 and he had injuries in 2004 and 2005) had, maybe even Olajuwon (missed 14 games in 1986 and 26 games in 1992)

Other than a few (James, Russell, Chamberlain), almost none had such primes undisturbed by injuries and missed games in that top 10 range.
That's where Bird's prime wins. It's truly hard to leave Bird's prime out of top 10 ever. The balance between his quality evaluation and his longevity evaluation creates a rather wide range for him. But I think his prime being consistent than some should be mentioned.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#38 » by Rich Michmond » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:00 am

Odinn21 wrote:
Bird's prime was basically from his rookie season to 1987-88, that's 9 seasons of prime with only blips being his performance issues. He played 79 games per reg. season and afaik he did not miss a single postseason game.

He missed game 2 against Milwaukee in 1983 due to fever. Interestingly, that game the closest loss of the series (4 points). The Celtics were swept and the Bucks were jumping over their heads all series long.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#39 » by Odinn21 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:11 am

Rich Michmond wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:
Bird's prime was basically from his rookie season to 1987-88, that's 9 seasons of prime with only blips being his performance issues. He played 79 games per reg. season and afaik he did not miss a single postseason game.

He missed game 2 against Milwaukee in 1983 due to fever. Interestingly, that game the closest loss of the series (4 points). The Celtics were swept and the Bucks were jumping over their heads all series long.

After typing that part, I felt that "did not something go wrong in 1983 at any point" but couldn't put my finger on it. Thanks a lot for the correction.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: Who's higher on your all time team? Bird, Hakeem or Kobe 

Post#40 » by No-more-rings » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:34 pm

I don’t think there’s a good argument for those two over Hakeem. His peak to me is simply higher, and he doesn’t give anything up on prime length or overall longevity. Some probably underrate Hakeem because he wasn’t always a big volume scorer and had a lot of early playoff exits in his prime, but his defensive impact was huge, probably better than Duncan’s for example and his 94 run was better than anything Bird or Kobe could’ve done. Kobe’s defense wasn’t consistent through his prime, and Bird was a legit negative from like 88 onward.

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