[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs

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[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:03 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Spurs franchise history.

As San Antonio Spurs from 1976-77 to today
As San Antonio Spurs from 1973-74 to 1975-76 in ABA
As Dallas Chaparrals from 1971-72 to 1972-73 in ABA
As Texas Chaparrals in 1970-71 in ABA
As Dallas Chaparrals from 1967-68 to 1969-70 in ABA


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

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The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#2 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:17 pm

1. 2003 Tim Duncan

Goat-level peak. Nobody else here touches this but both Robinson and to a lesser extent Kawhi have a lot to offer.

2. 1996 David Robinson
3. 2016 Kawhi Leonard

Both players have a few different seasons to choose from. I like Robinson in 1996 as he has matured more and understood how to be a dominant force outside of his athletic prowess.

Kawhi, well, its different. I know he took a step up in 2017 as a scorer but his defense took a step down. The biggest reason for 2016 for me is that even though Kawhi improved offensive in 2017, it wasn't a noticeable improvement as a playmaker. Since he never evolved into a primary playmaker I will choose his 2016, hyper-portable season on both ends.

4. 2005 Manu Ginobili

What more can you ask for from a 2nd option? Great defender, terrific scorer, penetration game to create consistent open looks and both a flashy and impactful creator and finisher around the rim.

5. 1978 George "Ice Man" Gervin

Seemingly an outcast when it comes to great wings. In the same tier of player as Paul Pierce but often times gets swept under the rug. Tremendous scorer and solid defender and would fit with anyone.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#3 » by migya » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:59 pm

1. Tim Duncan 2003
Over Robinson because of his playoff run. Stats, raw and advanced, are less than Robinson. Having Robinson alongside him did make it a bit easier.

2. David Robinson 1996
Could really be any from 1994-1996, but Robinson seemed to be little more efficient and lead little better. Playoff run wasn't bad and his team's low talent holds him back more than most want to say. Ridiculous how he carried his team from the start of his career until Duncan arrived.

3. Kawhi Leonard 2017
Defense did regress but increase in offense was significant. He became true star that season.

4. Manu Ginobili 2008
His production was that bit better while being little more efficient. Value to winning puts him ahead of Gervin.

5. George Gervin 1978
Really didn't do much else than score and his significantly less contributing to winning places him lower than he could be.


HM - Artis Gilmore 1983
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#4 » by Odinn21 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:04 pm

1. 2003 Tim Duncan
8-) 8-) 8-)

2. 1995 David Robinson
I think he's a clear #2 in here. His postseason advanced numbers in 1996 numbers are significantly better than 1995 numbers. But that's mostly on that the easy series against the Suns and Robinson having probably the best series of his lifetime. However he was owned by Karl Malone even harder. Looking at his performance after 1st round series, his performances against the Lakers and the Rockets in '95 easily top his performance against the Jazz in '96. (His obpm after 1st rounds, 1995 actually outscales 1996)

I guess this might be unpopular but I see a very good case for 1999 Robinson over anyone else, too. And 1995 was his peak.

3. 2016 Kawhi Leonard
His most complete season in SA with the games he missed in 2017 postseason. I still feel like he lost more on defense than he gained on offense from 2016 to 2017. That's pretty much debatable. But those missed games in 2017 kind of put it to rest.

4. 1979 George Gervin
Pretty good regular season. 30/5/3 on +6.1 rts, led the team to #3 offense and overall #1 SRS. Secured his team a direct 2nd round spot.
26.1 ppg on +9.6 rts against the #2 defensive team in the 2nd round.
31.0 ppg on +6.3 rts against the defending champs in the Western CF.
29/6/3 on +8.1 rts in postseason.

5. 2005 Manu Ginobili
I know that he's insanely popular, especially among the people on PC board. And it's very obvious that he was an insane difference maker, he was the most efficient scoring piece in the postseason. But he was not the creator of that offense. He was not the baseline of that offense. Every single player I ranked above him were. I remember pointing out that Duncan's unassisted fgm rate and assist distribution being on par with O'Neal and Nowitzki who are known for their creation volume and quality.
[I said these to point out differences between Gervin's and Ginobili's situations btw.]

HM: 2013 Tony Parker (shame that this season of him doesn't get enough recognition, even +/- driven data is in love with him)

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migya wrote:4. Manu Ginobili 2008
His production was that bit better while being little more efficient. Value to winning puts him ahead of Gervin.

I disagree with Ginobili over Gervin but 2005 version has a strong aspect to create a competition. 2008 Ginobili has no case over 1979 Gervin, whatsoever.
Ginobili was not fully healthy in the playoffs. And he finally broke down. The Spurs lost in 5 against the Lakers because Ginobili was far, far away from being 100%. He had 1 good game and the Spurs blew out the Lakers. In the 4 losses Ginobili was 8.3 ppg 3.5 rpg 3.5 apg & 2.8 tov per game on .359 ts.
Value to winning? Gervin led his team to WCF and lost in 7, Ginobili was not leading his team and his health issues made the team lose in 5.
2008 Ginobili has no case to be in there.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#5 » by Dutchball97 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:26 pm

1. Tim Duncan, 2002/03 - A top 10 peak ever and clearly the best here. I do think D-Rob and Kawhi aren't far behind but both of them had some knocks on their seasons, while Tim's 02/03 season is as close to flawless you're going to get.

2. Kawhi Leonard, 2016/17 - It is likely there won't be many people agreeing with Kawhi over D-Rob but I can't really justify it the other way around. Sure D-Rob had some of the best regular seasons of all time in the mid 90s but Kawhi was playing at a MVP level as well in 2016 and 2017. With Kawhi stepping up even more in the play-offs and D-Rob not really having any run where he is great throughout it goes to Kawhi for me.

3. David Robinson, 1995/96 - I think the relevant seasons for him are 91, 94, 95 and 96 here. In 94 he had his best regular season but he had a bad showing against the Jazz in a first round loss. In 91 he also lost in the first round but he did play well, still can't go for it though as he lost as a 2 seed to the 7 seed Warriors in the first round. I've pretty much had all these seasons picked at one point for this spot as they all have incredible upsides but also downsides. It came down to 95 vs 96 and 96 edged it out. These two regular seasons are about as good but he held up somewhat better in the 96 play-offs. He had a strong first round but his performances dropped again against the Jazz in the second round so I just can't see him over Kawhi.

4. George Gervin, 1977/78 - 79 is an understandable year to pick for Gervin as he beat Dr J's Sixers in the play-offs but he was just as good, if not better the year before. If I'm straight up comparing post-seasons I might still go 79 but I do think the 78 regular season is his best. Toss up really but I'd have either year #4. For a career perspective I'm a lot lower on Gervin than the average poster on here seems to be due to a lack of consistent post-season success but he does have a couple really good all around seasons in the second half of the 70s.

5. Manu Ginobili, 2004/05 - I'm very high on this season and Manu's impact but context is important as well. Manu played on an incredibly stacked team and while he was a major part of their success, he did play less minutes than Duncan, Parker and Bowen in both the regular season and post-season. Gervin on the other hand was the clear best player on his team who carried his team in the late 70s. I think they're close enough in terms of performance to give the nod to the player carrying the bigger load.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#6 » by Dr Positivity » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:44 pm

1. Tim Duncan 2003 - Most complete mix of offense/defense

2. David Robinson 1995 - MVP season and doesn't seem that bad in the playoffs.

3. Kawhi Leonard 2016 - I don't really know how to pick between 16 and 17 defense/offense wise, his team definitely needed the 2017+ Kawhi in the playoffs, but I do feel his defense dropped a lot after this year and I like having that for Kawhi.

4. George Gervin 1979 - The Spurs are actually playing defense this year while Gervin still ups his excellent 30ppg

5. Manu Ginboili 2005 - Strong in playoffs and impact beyond his numbers.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#7 » by homecourtloss » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:17 pm

1. Duncan, 2003. Difficult to argue otherwise
2. DRob, 1995. Could go with 1994 or 1996 or even 1999, one of the most impactful playoff runs we’ve seen
3. Kawhi, 2016. Better defensively. Wish he could have finished his playoffs in 2017.
4. Manu, 2005. Crazy impact
5. Parker, 2013. Impact metrics like him here.

HM. Gervin. Ranks too low in WOWYR due to poor defense for me to put him here,
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#8 » by 70sFan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:47 pm

People shouldn't use WOWY for Gervin - he basically never missed games during his prime.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#9 » by Outside » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:02 pm

I'm not participating in this project, but I will pop in for an observation. I know that some metrics appear to diminish Gervin, and his teams didn't do well in the PS, but man, seeing him live, he was something. I don't see how he wouldn't be top five here. His efficiency was pretty damn good for a volume scorer in his era, and he led the league in scoring four times. One of the best and most fitting nicknames ever. So smooth. Loved watching him play.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#10 » by Jaivl » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:11 pm

70sFan wrote:People shouldn't use WOWY for Gervin - he basically never missed games during his prime.

Hm? Haven't seen anyone do that. I mean, it's at you say, you can't use WOWY because there is no "without you" sample lol.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#11 » by Odinn21 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:14 pm

Jaivl wrote:
70sFan wrote:People shouldn't use WOWY for Gervin - he basically never missed games during his prime.

Hm? Haven't seen anyone do that. I mean, it's at you say, you can't use WOWY because there is no "without you" sample lol.

This was literally on the post above;
HM. Gervin. Ranks too low in WOWYR due to poor defense for me to put him here
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#12 » by 70sFan » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:30 pm

I know that Gervin has terrible defensive reputation which downgrade his overall reputation (rightfully so), but we're talking about peaks here and Iceman wasn't bad defender in 1978. In fact, he was consistent enough in games I've seen that I'd call him above average defensive player overall. He had holes like loosy footwork and lack of physicality, but at the same time he was excellent shotblocker and good help defender with his length and athleticism.

Seriously, we shouldn't judge player's defense based on narratives. Look at modern players who have bad reputations on that end - Jokic, Dirk, Harden - nobody decides to pick secondary all-star over them because of that. Of course Gervin wasn't as good as them on offense, but he wasn't that much worse on defense either - I would argue he wasn't worse at all.

Not to mention that picking Parker over him is just silly. Parker is much worse on both ends of the floor and I love Parker more than anyone else here
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#13 » by Colbinii » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:31 pm

70sFan wrote:I know that Gervin has terrible defensive reputation which downgrade his overall reputation (rightfully so), but we're talking about peaks here and Iceman wasn't bad defender in 1978. In fact, he was consistent enough in games I've seen that I'd call him above average defensive player overall. He had holes like loosy footwork and lack of physicality, but at the same time he was excellent shotblocker and good help defender with his length and athleticism.

Seriously, we shouldn't judge player's defense based on narratives. Look at modern players who have bad reputations on that end - Jokic, Dirk, Harden - nobody decides to pick secondary all-star over them because of that. Of course Gervin wasn't as good as them on offense, but he wasn't that much worse on defense either - I would argue he wasn't worse at all.

Not to mention that picking Parker over him is just silly. Parker is much worse on both ends of the floor and I love Parker more than anyone else here


Odinn21 pretty clearly likes Parker more than you.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#14 » by Odinn21 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:35 pm

Colbinii wrote:Odinn21 pretty clearly likes Parker more than you.

You got that wrong. It's not me who ranked Parker's peak over Gervin's peak. (:
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#15 » by Jaivl » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:47 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
Colbinii wrote:Odinn21 pretty clearly likes Parker more than you.

You got that wrong. It's not me who ranked Parker's peak over Gervin's peak. (:

Parker sucks. And now that we all agree...
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#16 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:56 pm

i disagree with knocking down kawhi 2017 run for his injury compared to 2016

he literally played in a further round than 2016 kawhi, hay is injury an advantage of 2016? how injury came at a point of the post season where 2016 kawhi would be on vacation

sounds like a logic under which kawhi year would be better in 2017 if he lost to rockets instead of beating them cause he wouldnt have got injured whole losing in the same round
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#17 » by Odinn21 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:07 pm

falcolombardi wrote:i disagree with knocking down kawhi 2017 run for his injury compared to 2016

he literally played in a further round than 2016 kawhi, hay is injury an advantage of 2016? how injury came at a point of the post season where 2016 kawhi would be on vacation

sounds like a logic under which kawhi year would be better in 2017 if he lost to rockets instead of beating them cause he wouldnt have got injured whole losing in the same round

2018 C. Paul over 2008 C. Paul as he was injured in a later round than the 2nd?

Leonard's overall level of play did not change much. He improved on offense but that took a toll on his defensive effort.
As for rounds; the Spurs lost in the 2nd round in 2016 because 2016 Thunder were a considerably better team than 2017 Rockets. Do we really see the Spurs closing a series against 2016 Thunder without Leonard?..
He played nearly 24 minutes against the Warriors and he was out.
Your round based argument is for 24 minutes of play?
Also fundamentally every type and size of an injury hurts a team's chances at winning games. Why should we be overlooking missed games.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#18 » by trex_8063 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:16 pm

Though I don't know if I'll get around to voting, my quick 2c.....

Tim Duncan ['03]
David Robinson [any one of '94-'96 have a case]
Kawhi Leonard [probably '16 or '17 for me]

......are the clear top 3, in that order [also clear to me].

4-5 is most likely between Gervin ['78] and Manu ['05?? '08??], though here I'm uncertain on the order [maybe slightly leaning to Ginobili].
Shout-out to '13 Parker [does NOT suck; come on fellas], as well as '83 Gilmore and [yeah, I'm gonna say it] '18 LaMarcus.
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#19 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:21 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:i disagree with knocking down kawhi 2017 run for his injury compared to 2016

he literally played in a further round than 2016 kawhi, hay is injury an advantage of 2016? how injury came at a point of the post season where 2016 kawhi would be on vacation

sounds like a logic under which kawhi year would be better in 2017 if he lost to rockets instead of beating them cause he wouldnt have got injured whole losing in the same round

2018 C. Paul over 2008 C. Paul as he was injured in a later round

Leonard's overall level of play did not change much. He improved on offense but that took a toll on his defensive effort.
As for rounds; the Spurs lost in the 2nd round in 2016 because 2016 Thunder were a considerably better team than 2017 Rockets. Do we really see the Spurs closing a series against 2016 Thunder without Leonard?..
He played nearly 24 minutes against the Warriors and he was out.
Your round based argument is for 24 minutes of play?
Also fundamentally every type and size of an injury hurts a team's chances at winning games. Why should we be overlooking missed games.



both played a full season. both played a first round and second round, neither played in third round except for 2 quarters that i dont care much about

their sample size is the same, for all we know had kawhi advanced in 2016 maybe he gets injured in game 1 too vs warriors, maybe they dont beat houston with 2016 kawhi, etc but all of thst is hypotheticals

in reality neither was there past tje second round for spurs or to put it the other way around, kawhi was available to spurs in 2016 as much as he was in 2017 (reg season and two rounds)

availability would be valid reason to prefer 2016 if kawhi missed a lot of the season in 2017 compared to 2016 or missed the first or second round , aka a part of the season that kawhi in 2016 actually played but 2017 didnt

rewarding kawhi for not getting injured in a 2016 conference finals that he didnt play is a hypothetical that i dont get
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Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Spurs 

Post#20 » by HeartBreakKid » Yesterday 4:12 am

1) 2003 Tim Duncan - Seems like better scoring ability than David Robinson. But I do think that Robinson is misunderstood. I think that 03 is often used as a season that people justify to put Duncan over other guys who "couldnt get it done with weak teams", but somewhat underrate the 03 cast. 03 is not strong compared to other championship teams but it is stronger than most one man bands.

2) 1995 David Robinson - I'm assuming 96 Robinson is picked due to being more efficient. But I think the gap in turnovers and efficiency can be explained by David going up against tougher defenders. The defenses 95 Robinson went up against were middling, but all had legit centers (Mutumbo, Vlade, Olajuwon) and usually a good defensive front court or back up to compliment. In 96 he went up against the Suns (no great defensive center and a poor defensive overall) and the Jazz (good defense but not an elite center). I pick David over Leonard because I think the gap in their defense is much bigger than their scoring, and playmaking isn't really much of a strength for either. Leonard is a better scorer no doubt, but Robinson is a very luxurious #2 option or co-option, and his defense might be top 3 ever. Leonard at his peak might be the best perimeter defender, but is still a decent way away from Robinson.

3) 2016 Kawhi Leonard - Very underrated scoring season. People in general were not ready to accept Leonard was a superstar yet so he went under the radar (even in 2017 this still happened). 2017 is a good choice here too.

4) 2008 Manu Ginobili - Does more for your team than Gervin and Parker does and can match their strengths in spurts.

5) 1980 George Gervin - No strong opinion on when his peak was. Elite scorer and can shoot too. Pretty poor player outside of that, but putting the ball in the basket is still plenty useful. Don't think Tony Parker's playmaking ability makes up for it, and he's certainly not near Gervin as a scorer.

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