[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, Doctor MJ, trex_8063, penbeast0, PaulieWal

User avatar
Odinn21
Analyst
Posts: 3,514
And1: 2,942
Joined: May 19, 2019
 

[Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project thread.

Pick the top 5 individual single seasons in the Suns franchise history.

As Phoenix Suns from 1968-69 to today


Things to follow;
- This project is franchise bound, not city bound. Quick example; Philadelphia Warriors from 1949-50 to 1961-62 is part of the Golden State Warriors franchise history and 1952 Arizin is eligible for the GS Warriors history.
- We'll follow continuity of the franchise. I.e. Seattle SuperSonics and Oklahoma City Thunder are the same franchise. We'll use BBRef as reference for this.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/OKC/
- ABA seasons are included.
- 2020-21 season is yet to be completed, so, it's not eligible for this project.
- One season per player, no duplicates within the franchise history. Quick example; Shaquille O'Neal can be voted for only once for the LA Lakers franchise history, and he can be voted for the Orlando Magic franchise history. They are separate occasions.


- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- Votes will be counted per player, not per version of player.
- An easy going point system of 10/7/5/3/1, the same as Retro PoY project, will be used. Number of higher placement votes will be the tiebreaker (if two players are tied at 27 points for the 1st place, the player with more 1st place votes will get it).
- Explanation is needed, even in short forms.
- We'll be going alphabetically with franchise nicknames. Linked to the voting threads as well.


Results on Google Sheet

- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (10:00 EST).

---

Spoiler:
Ainosterhaspie wrote:.

Ambrose wrote:.

Baski wrote:.

bidofo wrote:.

Blackmill wrote:.

bondom34 wrote:.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:.

Clyde Frazier wrote:.

cecilthesheep wrote:.

DCasey91 wrote:.

DJoker wrote:.

Doctor MJ wrote:.

DQuinn1575 wrote:.

Dr Positivity wrote:.

drza wrote:.

Dutchball97 wrote:.

Dupp wrote:.

E-Balla wrote:.

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:.

eminence wrote:.

euroleague wrote:.

Franco wrote:.

Goudelock wrote:.

Gregoire wrote:.

Hal14 wrote:.

HeartBreakKid wrote:.

Heej wrote:.

homecourtloss wrote:.

Hornet Mania wrote:.

Jaivl wrote:.

Joao Saraiva wrote:.

Joe Malburg wrote:.

Joey Wheeler wrote:.

LA Bird wrote:.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:.

Magic Is Magic wrote:.

Matzer wrote:.

NO-KG-AI wrote:.

Owly wrote:.

O_6 wrote:.

PaulieWal wrote:.

penbeast0 wrote:.

PistolPeteJR wrote:.

RonSwanson wrote:.

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:.

sansterre wrote:.

Senior wrote:.

SeniorWalker wrote:.

SHAQ32 wrote:.

Texas Chuck wrote:.

Tim Lehrbach wrote:.

trex_0863 wrote:.

TrueLAfan wrote:.

Whopper_Sr wrote:.

ZeppelinPage wrote:.

70sFan wrote:.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
User avatar
Odinn21
Analyst
Posts: 3,514
And1: 2,942
Joined: May 19, 2019
 

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#2 » by Odinn21 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:04 pm

I will wait for some discussion to decide on my #5. I have '93 Barkley, '07 Nash, '90 KJ and '99 Kidd quite comfortably as the top 4.

Then there's too much names to think about;
1970 Connie Hawkins, 1979 Paul Westphal, 1979/1984 Walter Davis, 1981 Dennis Johnson (his case is weak but not weak enough to deny him entirely I guess), 1984 Larry Nance, 2005/2007 Amar'e Stoudemire, 2006 Shawn Marion.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
durantbird
General Manager
Posts: 8,521
And1: 1,762
Joined: Nov 30, 2019

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#3 » by durantbird » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:23 pm

Another team where it's a shame 2021 is not included
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,653
And1: 24,968
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#4 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:29 pm

durantbird wrote:Another team where it's a shame 2021 is not included

I don't see Booker or Paul making the list.
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 34,243
And1: 21,850
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#5 » by Colbinii » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:32 pm

1. 2007 Steve Nash
2. 1993 Charles Barkley


The clear-cut top 2 here. I like what Nash can do as a ball handler and shooter more-so than what Barkley did as a scorer and rebounder.

3. 1970 Connie Hawkins
4. 1990 Kevin Johnson
5. 1999 Jason Kidd


So, to start out, Jason Kidd is closer to Charles Barkley than he is to Hawkins and KJ. Jason Kidd had an unbelievable year in 1999 with a poo-poo platter to work with. His defense, playmaking and aggression were a unique combination we have never seen before in a player and it translated directly into winning basketball.

Hawkins almost upset the 1970s Lakers and, before joining the team in 1970, the Suns were atrocious in their first season. His playmaking and defense from the post along with his scoring arsenal puts him above KJ for me.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,653
And1: 24,968
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#6 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:37 pm

I have a hard time with this one, one of Hawkins/Westphal/Johnson/Kidd won't make the list and it's tough for me to decide. KJ was spectacular on offense, but I was never impressed with his defense and this could be a tie-breaker for me. I'd like to see more opinions right now though.
User avatar
Odinn21
Analyst
Posts: 3,514
And1: 2,942
Joined: May 19, 2019
 

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#7 » by Odinn21 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:43 pm

Colbinii wrote:5. 1990 Kevin Johnson

The average competition he faced makes a great case for KJ. So, I feel like putting him below #3 might be underrating him in here against Kidd and the others.

1st round against Stockton and the Jazz (+5.0 NRtg, 6th)
2nd round against Scott and the Lakers (+7.0 NRtg, 2nd)
C. finals against Porter and the Blazers (+6.1 NRtg, 4th)

I'll probably rank Kidd over KJ too but it's hard to not get impressed by the competition KJ faced in 1990.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
Dutchball97
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,406
And1: 5,001
Joined: Mar 28, 2020
   

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#8 » by Dutchball97 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:47 pm

1. Charles Barkley, 1992/93 - A lot of good players to choose from for this franchise but Barkley stands out as clearly the best to me. You could make an argument for Nash but I'm not as high on his post-season performance as I am for Barkley's 93 post-season. Both Barkley and Nash could be argued as not completely deserving of their MVPs but they're MVP level players nontheless.

2. Steve Nash, 2006/07 - Even though the 05-07 stretch is hard to differentiate for Nash I do think both his regular season and play-offs this year were his best in his career. He might not have a peak quite as impressive as Barkley but it's not like he fell apart in the play-offs. Nash roughly maintained his regular season form each of these 3 peak seasons in 05, 06 and 07.

3. Kevin Johnson, 1989/90 - KJ wasn't the most consistent player but when it clicked it created fireworks. I think I'd even consider a combination of his 91 regular season and his 90 post-season ahead of Nash but he had a stinker in the 91 play-offs and didn't quite match the regular season impact of Nash in the 89/90 season. His 1990 regular season wasn't that much worse than the year after though and I still have him as a very comfortable third.

4. Amar'e Stoudemire, 2004/05 - He wasn't the best player on his team unlike the top 3 and some of the other candidates but the quality of play between the next couple of guys for the Suns isn't a massive discrepancy in my mind. Stoudemire sets himself apart by having an incredibly consistent all around season. He led the team in WS in Nash's first MVP year and kept up his level of play in a deep play-off run.

5. Shawn Marion, 2005/06 - It is a bit hard for me to seperate Stoudemire and Marion. They were both huge for the Suns. I don't really buy into the narrative of Nash simply making them look good. In 06 Marion was the one that led the team in WS and he stepped up in the play-offs in absense of Stoudemire as well. I think Stoudemire had a slightly more complete season but the difference is marginal between the two. I'm not super impressed by Westphal's peak and his play-offs definitely aren't doing him any favors either. I did strongly consider his teammate Walter Davis for the 4 and 5 spots (if I would've put him ahead of one of Marion/Stoudemire I feel like I should've put him ahead of both). Davis was less spectacular in the regular season than Westphal and even though he had a strong post-season run in 79, it wasn't enough to justify him ahead of Marion and Stoudemire. Kidd is probably the notable absentee on my list but his play-offs in his Phoenix days were pedestrian at best and like Westphal I don't think his regular seasons were impressive enough to overcome that.
70sFan
RealGM
Posts: 29,653
And1: 24,968
Joined: Aug 11, 2015
 

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#9 » by 70sFan » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:05 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:I'm not super impressed by Westphal's peak and his play-offs definitely aren't doing him any favors either

What? Westphal had fantastic postseason runs both in 1976 and in 1979:

1976

24.3/2.5/6.3 on 61 TS% against the Sonics
18.6/2.3/4.1 on 57 TS% against the defending champions Warriors (in only 33.4 mpg and slow pace)
20.8/2.7/4.8 on 51 TS% against the Celtics (not a great series, but Celtics were brutal in terms of perimeter defense)

1979

26.3/5.3/6.7 on 67 TS% against the Blazers
19.0/2.0/2.0 on 62 TS% against the Kings
24.1/2.1/6.3 on 53 TS% against the future champions Sonics (again, he faced all-time great defender DJ)

Westphal was very consistent postseason performer at his best. He didn't post massive scoring stats, but his combination of shooting, efficient scoring, playmaking, low tov numbers and decent defense should put him in this conversation for sure.

I see no reason to put someone like Amar'e - probably overall less impactful offensive player with clear hole in his game on defensive side - over Westphal, who was the leader of very successful postseason teams.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,008
And1: 21,963
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#10 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:16 pm

1. '04-05 Steve Nash
2. '92-93 Charles Barkley
3. '89-90 Kevin Johnson
4. '69-70 Connie Hawkins
5. '05-06 Shawn Marion

Alright so, I'm in a moment where I can elaborate a bit more, and it's fun for it to happen with the Suns, who I've really come to appreciate as a franchise through the many decades of Jerry Colangelo's run. There's a throughline of Colangelo putting together exciting teams generation after generation - and shout out to the Westphal to Nance generations who didn't quite make my list.

The first two choices were simple for me. I do believe the two Suns' MVPs had the finest seasons ever in a Suns uniform, and yes I do believe Nash had the more impressive of the two seasons.

This surely doesn't come across as a surprise to folks who know me as someone with perhaps a Nash bias, but I'm going to share my history here a little bit.

Going into the '04-05 season I'd been a casual, as the kids call it nowadays. I'd been following sports from a very young age - I could and would read the sports page of the newspaper each day years before I was taught to read in school. There was much I couldn't decipher, but I was obsessed and particularly drawn to numbers and tables, and I would puzzle over what a particular thing meant until I got it. Nevertheless, despite loving to play basketball in particular as a kid, from a RealGM perspective, I remained quite naive about the game until Nash's '04-05 season.

I remember going into that season being a bit disappointed that the Suns didn't just hand Leandro Barbosa the reins as I was excited to see what he could do, and my favorite player at that time was Allen Iverson.

I remember being floored at how good the Suns were out of the gate when the season actually began and, among other things, gaining new respect for Nash.

But importantly, what drove me to look at things much more closely was not a love for Nash's game, but a strong feeling of cognitive dissonance after Nash got named Player of the Month and began getting talked about as an MVP candidate. My thought was "C'mon, be real, there's no way that THAT dude could be the MVP of the entire league." My feeling was that Amar'e Stoudemire was the real MVP of the team and that people were confusing Nash's arrival's impact with the natural progression of the Suns young core.

So I started digging into things. Started paying more attention. Watched the season unfold. Gradually I went through a series of "Ok I guess Nash deserves X, but people are overrating him when they say Y." where my Ys became Xs and then late in the season, on the board I'd found that I liked to lurk best out of everything on the basketball internet, there was an MVP discussion thread where someone was knocking Nash for all the reasons I'd been knocking him, and hence I felt compelled to share what had changed my mind. And thus I stopped lurking and started writing.

Something I will say is that I had Duncan over Nash for MVP that year until Duncan's injury in spite of all this pro-Nash talk. I also remember that I thought at the time that it wasn't necessarily clear that Nash deserved the MVP more than Shaq, but was clear was that Nash was having MVP caliber impact, and that people were overrating Shaq's impact to some degree in part because there seemed to be this assumption that Dwyane Wade's production was due to Shaq.

This then set my new trajectory in basketball analysis, and as fortune would have it, the SSOL Suns would have a similar, if delayed, impact on the entirety of the NBA.

None of that's a specific argument for Nash, but I don't really think he needs it. I will post a pet stat of mine though.

I have a spreadsheet where I list out the guy with the best on-court ORtg (as well as DRtg) who played at least half the season's minutes, going back as far as we have data. One way Nash stands out by this is that he led the league in ORtg for 7 straight years and we really see anyone else like that on either offense or defense (granted we only have back through '96-97). But this is a thread about season peaks, so without further ago:

In '04-05, Steve Nash had an on-court ORtg of 120.0 on a roster on a roster who the previous year had had an 101.4 ORtg. This was a 6.1 point jump over the league leader from the previous year (Nash teammate Dirk Nowitzki), and prior to this season, the only team to post player numbers higher than this was the Curry-Durant Warriors. Not even Luka Doncic last year, leading what was then the greatest ORtg team in history, was surpassing what Nash had done 15 years prior.

I consider Nash's number there to be Ruthian is in its outlier-ness, and that's not a term I use lightly. (Babe Ruth, if not clear.)

ftr: The leader this year was Kawhi Leonard at 123.2, and a total of 12 players broke the 120 threshold with the legendary Enes Kanter placing 3rd on the list. To say I'm still trying to make sense of this season's play is an understatement. :o

Onward with the list:

Chuck's '92-93 season was legendary. I do think his actual impact got overrated a bit because he had some great talent around him, but man did I love watching him play. One of the reasons I've been excited for Zion is that he's the first guy to come along since Chuck who actually seems to belong to a similar mold as Chuck. Vastly more rare than the Jordans of the world - Jordan's the best of the bunch, but there are lesser versions of Jordan everywhere, body types like Chuck's - so wide, yet so explosive - really feel like unicorns.

Placing KJ is tricky because his health issues make it tough to even know which year to focus on. I want to give a shout out to '94-95 KJ for that playoff run, but I went with a healthy season where he also had an iconic playoff series upsetting the Showtime Lakers just when Magic seemed his most unstoppable.

I actually think KJ has an argument over Nash, both for here, and for Suns GOAT, but what I have to say is that I don't see KJ in the same league as Nash as a floor general.

I put Connie Hawkins in in the 4th spot. Also tough to assign a spot to and I do think he's got a case over KJ here, though in the end I just have more confidence in what KJ displayed in the NBA compared to Hawk. There is a well-roundedness to Hawk's game though that is tough for me to put aside, and I particularly feel it in the comparison with the next guy on my list.

I've got feelings about Shawn Marion. On the one hand you could say that his game is more well-rounded that, say, teammate Amar'e Stoudemire, and as someone choosing Marion between the two I'm kinda fine putting my preference in these terms. On the other hand, Marion is clearly someone who can't just matrix his way to impact. To impact like a star, he needs to paired with another star with a particular skillset who is far less dependent on him. You might say Marion's more of a planet than a star, and since the original meaning of the word "planet" is "wanderer", this seems quite appropriate.

Nevertheless, able to focus on the right set of responsibilities, Marion was really something else.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
HeartBreakKid
RealGM
Posts: 22,395
And1: 18,823
Joined: Mar 08, 2012
     

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#11 » by HeartBreakKid » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:23 pm

1) 2007 Steve Nash - Anchored the best offense in Suns history. His shooting and playmaking puts him over Chuck for me. Probably easier to hide on defense as well, though Chucky tried harder during his contending years.


2)1993 Charles Barkley - Not sure if this is his actual peak or just the year he had the most success. Too lazy to look into it now.

3) 1999 Jason Kidd - Perhaps Kidd's first prime season. Great example of a player who can impact the game without scoring well. While his shooting can be exploitable, it's not like the remaining Suns do not have glaring holes either. With Kidd you get an all time great defender and an all time great playmaker, not bad for a non-superstar.

4) 1990 Kevin Johnson - Considering the era he played in I feel his scoring numbers are more stable compared to the other contenders here (Hawkins, Westphal). Don't think he was as natural a passer as Hawkins, or maybe not even Westphal but his ball handling ability makes him an overall more useful playmaker most likely. Can handle high usage like Hawkins and play off others like Westphal.

5) 1979 Paul Westphal- His numbers seem comparable to Hawkins but did it at the end of the 70s where the league was merged, and he put up those numbers for 6 seasons straight (shows consistency and stability). Hawkins was probably a bit past it by the time he got to Phoenix. Hawkins was perhaps a more natural passer (Westphal protected the ball better probably), but outside of that I don't think he has much tangible separation with Westphal. Westphal just seems like a clean, do it all type of two guard who can elevate when needed.


STAT is a bit too one dimensional for me, and I think his defense takes off a huge amount of the value you get from his scoring. Marion's shot creation leaves a lot to be desired, and I wouldn't put him on that DPOY type of tier to off set that.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,008
And1: 21,963
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#12 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:29 pm

Colbinii wrote:[b]3. 1999 Jason Kidd

So, to start out, Jason Kidd is closer to Charles Barkley than he is to Hawkins and KJ. Jason Kidd had an unbelievable year in 1999 with a poo-poo platter to work with. His defense, playmaking and aggression were a unique combination we have never seen before in a player and it translated directly into winning basketball.


Has to be noted:

In '97-98 the Suns were better with Kidd on the bench. What changed from '97-98 to '98-99 is that they stopped having other point guards on the roster - go look at the bkref page for the team that year, you'll see there was only one other PG on the roster, and he played only a single game - the Suns literally had no back up point guard...and this makes the point guard's impact numbers look amazing.

None of this is to say that Kidd doesn't deserve love for his performance that year, but this was most definitely a "Team got a lot worse than the year before, but as not as much worse as they could have" situation, and not to be confused with a guy leading a team to new heights.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,008
And1: 21,963
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#13 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 13, 2021 4:31 pm

70sFan wrote:
durantbird wrote:Another team where it's a shame 2021 is not included

I don't see Booker or Paul making the list.


One of them - could be either depending on how the post-season plays out - might for me when all is said and done.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
User avatar
Dr Positivity
RealGM
Posts: 62,529
And1: 16,330
Joined: Apr 29, 2009
       

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#14 » by Dr Positivity » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:10 pm

1. 1993 Charles Barkley - Having a high ceiling for playoff performances helps seal this one

2. 2007 Steve Nash - Elite offensive player, although benefitted from system

3. 1979 Paul Westphal - 1st team All NBA level guard, and low key Suns could have won the title this year (close game 6/7 losses to Sonics who beat the Bullets in 5)

4. 1990 Kevin Johnson - Leader of some excellent Suns teams before Barkley, big upset over Lakers

5. 1999 Jason Kidd - Boxscore and +/- were one of his best this year.
Liberate The Zoomers
User avatar
OldSchoolNoBull
General Manager
Posts: 9,051
And1: 4,443
Joined: Jun 27, 2003
Location: Ohio
 

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#15 » by OldSchoolNoBull » Sun Jun 13, 2021 5:50 pm

I am compelled to cast a full vote for the first time in this whole project; reason being I'm seeing a lot of people put Nash over Barkley, and I feel the need to do my part to counteract that.

1. 1993 Charles Barkley

I have always been very high on Barkley. Probably the third best player of the 90s for me behind MJ and Hakeem. He was just a beast. He was listed at 6'6' and is reported to be closer to 6'4' in reality, and in his whole career he never averaged less than 10rpg outside of his rookie season and he did 12+rpg six times, including the 12.2 he pulled this season. He was, pound-for-pound, one of the greatest rebounders who ever lived, full stop. Offensively, he was explosive, exciting, and efficient, scoring 25.6ppg on +6.0% Rel TS. And he dished 5.1apg on top of that. He led the team in WS/48 and BPM by wide margins over the next highest guys, at .242(0.56 margin) and 7.8(5.3 margin), both greater than the margins by which Nash led the 2007 Suns(.24 WS/48 margin, 1.5 BPM margin).

It should also be noted that he got his team to the Finals where Nash did not; you may argue that Barkley didn't have a Duncan to get through, but it's not like those 93 Suns were playing scrubs in the playoffs. They went through Robinson's Spurs, a 55-win Kemp/Payton Sonics team, and then took MJ's Bulls to six games, getting within one possession of forcing them into a Game 7 on the road. They probably caught a break in that they avoided the 93 Rockets in the WCF, as Hakeem was always a problem for them, but still. That playoff run is greater than any Nash ever had.

His post-season numbers: 26.6ppg/13.6rpg/4.3apg on 55.2% TS(+1.6% above the RS league average), .215 WS/48, 6.9 BPM

I've seen some of you lump Barkley and Nash together as 'undeserving' MVPs, but I'll just say this - there's a reason why some people still bemoan Malone winning the MVP over Jordan in 97, but hardly anyone(that I know of) is too bothered by Barkley winning it over near-peak Jordan in 93. That should tell you something about how good Barkley was.

2. 2007 Steve Nash

For all the reasons already mentioned. Hyper-efficient scorer, ATG creator, is the reason any of those mid-00s Suns teams are remembered. This looks like statistically his best season. He was great.

18.6ppg/11.6apg on +11.3% Rel TS, .225 WS/48 and 5.9 BPM in the RS.
18.9ppg/13.3apg on 57.7% TS(+3.6% above the RS league average), .165 WS/48 and 5.2 BPM in the playoffs.

3. 2005 Amare

He was a beast in 2005 before his injuries started. Put up 26ppg/8.9rpg/1.6bpg/1.0spg on +8.8% Rel TS; .243 WS/48 and 4.4 BPM and then followed that up with a nasty 29.9ppg/10.7rpg/2bpg on virtually identical TS to his RS.

4. 1989 Kevin Johnson

KJ and Amare are sort of interchangeable here imo, it could go either way. I know you're all going with 1990 KJ, but I'm going with 89 because his Rel TS was higher(+6.0% vs +4.8%) and he dished more APG(12.2 to 11.4). But really either season would do.

5. 1979 Paul Westphal

Very underrated season for all the reasons HeartBreakKid said.

I'm not as sold on 99 Kidd as some of you, and I feel that Marion, while a good player, did benefit from the "Nash made him better" thing, moreso than Amare; look at Marion's TS throughout his career, he was never as efficient before or after his time with Nash as he was during. Hawkins was given some consideration and is probably the most likely to knock Westphal out of the #5 slot for me.
User avatar
homecourtloss
RealGM
Posts: 11,309
And1: 18,715
Joined: Dec 29, 2012

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#16 » by homecourtloss » Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:57 pm

1. Steve Nash, 2007. Both in 2005 and 2007 ran into a great Spurs team or we could have seen more. Primary creator of the greatest rORtg teams in NBA history that fell off of a cliff with him off court in substantial minutes (1200+ in 2005 and 2007). I cannot say enough about what he did in that 2005 to 2012 stretch.

2. Charles Barkley, 1993. Great season with many memorable games. He continued to develop his off-the-dribble game with a much more refined finishing game that wasn’t all power, especially with the left hand after creating space that was really fun to watch. Elbow injury in Finals and absence of Ceballos probably wound up hurting his legacy as Suns had a great chance at title in an extremely close Finals in which both teams scored the same amount of points with zero garbage time minutes though Barkley was -12 in that series and a plus in only one game (game 5).

3. Kevin Johnson, 1990. Great season amongst many good season for the Suns running into better teams but this year, they defeat the Lakers 4-1 with KJ as their best player despite Magic Johnson playing one of the best offensive series in history. His ability to use high screens and go either direction and get into the lane was incredible. Suns never should have been a 4 seed but lost a bunch of close games all year to drop down to 54 wins.

4. Jason Kidd, 1999. Shortened season, not as much data, but you could really see how impactful Kidd was going to be over the years. It was one of his best turnover economy seasons as well. Playoffs puts a damper here but the Suns were a rag-tag group here. Cliffy Robinson and Gugliotta were decent as was Longley in limited minutes but the rest of that team was terrible but they were very competitive with Kidd on court.

5. Shawn Marion, 2006. Two way impact, could have picked 2007 as well. Thought about Westphalia and Hawkins but like Marion on any team.

Amar’e was too big of a defensive liability even before injuries and best offensive seasons were highly dependent on Nash.
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 34,243
And1: 21,850
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#17 » by Colbinii » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:10 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Colbinii wrote:[b]3. 1999 Jason Kidd

So, to start out, Jason Kidd is closer to Charles Barkley than he is to Hawkins and KJ. Jason Kidd had an unbelievable year in 1999 with a poo-poo platter to work with. His defense, playmaking and aggression were a unique combination we have never seen before in a player and it translated directly into winning basketball.


Has to be noted:

In '97-98 the Suns were better with Kidd on the bench. What changed from '97-98 to '98-99 is that they stopped having other point guards on the roster - go look at the bkref page for the team that year, you'll see there was only one other PG on the roster, and he played only a single game - the Suns literally had no back up point guard...and this makes the point guard's impact numbers look amazing.

None of this is to say that Kidd doesn't deserve love for his performance that year, but this was most definitely a "Team got a lot worse than the year before, but as not as much worse as they could have" situation, and not to be confused with a guy leading a team to new heights.


Of course Jason Kidd had poor on-off metrics when his back-up Point Guard was Steve Nash. The Suns also had the best bench in the league by a large margin whom often played together (Nash's line-ups with Manning, Williams, Bryant and Hardaway were all terrific).

An important thing to remember about the improvement in the Suns from 1997 to 1998 wasn't just the improved bench play but Jason Kidd's impact defensively. The team went from 20th to 6th defensively.
Doctor MJ
Senior Mod
Senior Mod
Posts: 53,008
And1: 21,963
Joined: Mar 10, 2005
Location: Cali
     

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#18 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:45 pm

Colbinii wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Colbinii wrote:[b]3. 1999 Jason Kidd

So, to start out, Jason Kidd is closer to Charles Barkley than he is to Hawkins and KJ. Jason Kidd had an unbelievable year in 1999 with a poo-poo platter to work with. His defense, playmaking and aggression were a unique combination we have never seen before in a player and it translated directly into winning basketball.


Has to be noted:

In '97-98 the Suns were better with Kidd on the bench. What changed from '97-98 to '98-99 is that they stopped having other point guards on the roster - go look at the bkref page for the team that year, you'll see there was only one other PG on the roster, and he played only a single game - the Suns literally had no back up point guard...and this makes the point guard's impact numbers look amazing.

None of this is to say that Kidd doesn't deserve love for his performance that year, but this was most definitely a "Team got a lot worse than the year before, but as not as much worse as they could have" situation, and not to be confused with a guy leading a team to new heights.


Of course Jason Kidd had poor on-off metrics when his back-up Point Guard was Steve Nash. The Suns also had the best bench in the league by a large margin whom often played together (Nash's line-ups with Manning, Williams, Bryant and Hardaway were all terrific).

An important thing to remember about the improvement in the Suns from 1997 to 1998 wasn't just the improved bench play but Jason Kidd's impact defensively. The team went from 20th to 6th defensively.


Right but I'm not saying that merely because Kidd had poor on-off metrics he's not worthy here, I'm pointing out that those gigantic On/Off numbers from that one year in '98-99 are specifically because the Suns had a bizarre situation out of line with what you typically get in the NBA.

When you look at Kidd's OnCourt numbers for those Phoenix years alone you see the story of a guy leading the team to comparable levels each year, and when you look at the On/Off you see that '98-99 is just completely different from the rest of the years.

Moreover, that point guard I mentioned who only played one game in '98-99 - Randy Livingston - note that he played basically all of the next year, and played seemingly exclusively when Kidd was on the bench, and when he played, while it was worse than Kidd, it was nothing like the drop off you had the previous year. And I think we can agree that Livingston really seems like something close to the proverbial replacement level guy, so it's not like it took someone on the KJ/Nash level to reduce Kidd's On/Off from GOAT-looking to merely good.

I'll also note that it's not really a coincidence that the Suns were in a weird position in '98-99, because that was the lockout year. KJ retired during that lockout after the team had already traded Nash, and (according to bkref at least) the Suns didn't acquire any other point guards until late that season.

Re: Kidd improved team's defense. Certainly some truth in that.
Getting ready for the RealGM 100 on the PC Board

Come join the WNBA Board if you're a fan!
User avatar
Texas Chuck
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Senior Mod - NBA TnT Forum
Posts: 92,277
And1: 98,036
Joined: May 19, 2012
Location: Purgatory
   

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#19 » by Texas Chuck » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:48 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:5. '05-06 Shawn Marion



I'm both incredibly stunned by this and incredibly proud of you setting aside your hatred for the man to give him his due. But never ever ever would I have expected to see you include him after reading your thoughts on him over the years. :o
ThunderBolt wrote:I’m going to let some of you in on a little secret I learned on realgm. If you don’t like a thread, not only do you not have to comment but you don’t even have to open it and read it. You’re welcome.
Colbinii
RealGM
Posts: 34,243
And1: 21,850
Joined: Feb 13, 2013

Re: [Project] Top 5 single season peaks by franchises: The Suns 

Post#20 » by Colbinii » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:53 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
Has to be noted:

In '97-98 the Suns were better with Kidd on the bench. What changed from '97-98 to '98-99 is that they stopped having other point guards on the roster - go look at the bkref page for the team that year, you'll see there was only one other PG on the roster, and he played only a single game - the Suns literally had no back up point guard...and this makes the point guard's impact numbers look amazing.

None of this is to say that Kidd doesn't deserve love for his performance that year, but this was most definitely a "Team got a lot worse than the year before, but as not as much worse as they could have" situation, and not to be confused with a guy leading a team to new heights.


Of course Jason Kidd had poor on-off metrics when his back-up Point Guard was Steve Nash. The Suns also had the best bench in the league by a large margin whom often played together (Nash's line-ups with Manning, Williams, Bryant and Hardaway were all terrific).

An important thing to remember about the improvement in the Suns from 1997 to 1998 wasn't just the improved bench play but Jason Kidd's impact defensively. The team went from 20th to 6th defensively.


Right but I'm not saying that merely because Kidd had poor on-off metrics he's not worthy here, I'm pointing out that those gigantic On/Off numbers from that one year in '98-99 are specifically because the Suns had a bizarre situation out of line with what you typically get in the NBA.

When you look at Kidd's OnCourt numbers for those Phoenix years alone you see the story of a guy leading the team to comparable levels each year, and when you look at the On/Off you see that '98-99 is just completely different from the rest of the years.

Moreover, that point guard I mentioned who only played one game in '98-99 - Randy Livingston - note that he played basically all of the next year, and played seemingly exclusively when Kidd was on the bench, and when he played, while it was worse than Kidd, it was nothing like the drop off you had the previous year. And I think we can agree that Livingston really seems like something close to the proverbial replacement level guy, so it's not like it took someone on the KJ/Nash level to reduce Kidd's On/Off from GOAT-looking to merely good.

I'll also note that it's not really a coincidence that the Suns were in a weird position in '98-99, because that was the lockout year. KJ retired during that lockout after the team had already traded Nash, and (according to bkref at least) the Suns didn't acquire any other point guards until late that season.

Re: Kidd improved team's defense. Certainly some truth in that.


Phoenix was such a weird franchise following the departure of Barkley. They had, in 1997, Sam Cassell, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash at some point (Traded Cassell for Kidd), Trade Nash 2 years later, then move on from Kidd 2-3 years after that.

In the end they end up with the best PG of that trio and revolutionize basketball.

You have to wonder if a Kidd/Nash backcourt could have co-existed and what it could have been. Does Kidd develop a 3 point shot sooner?

Return to Player Comparisons