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It's clear that Jokic's defensive versatility he's the main obstacle for his claim to become an ATG.
He's probably average or slightly above that in the RS, but there are some matchups that can really expose him.
What I don't get, is that the theory of Jokic is not that different from the theory of a Marc Gasol, who was actually considered a great defender and I don't remember him being exploited as much (in a different era, truth to be told):
- Gasol is taller but Jokic is also very long
- limited foot speed for both
- both extremely smart seeing the development of the play well in advance
- both having great hands

Why Jokic can't replicate his impact?

Marc had much better lateral movement and quicker feet, and his anticipation and positioning is a lot better. He was one of the smartest defensive players of the past era too. Being a smart offensive player doesn't mean you'll automatically be a smart defensive player. Also he hasn't ever had the fraction of the load Jokic does on offense not many players in history have. To be as good as Jokic on offense and as good as Marc on defense you're basically gonna be close to a prime Bron or Mj level player and the motor required by that just almost never happens

Also I don't think the different era part holds weight. Marc was the Raptors defensive anchor literally 2 seasons ago and their best defender through the playoffs. He even did a great job on help defense against Steph and also locked up Vucevic, Embiid and was critical in defending Giannis.
And he was in his mid 30s not at his defensive peak from years prior where he was much more mobile



Jokic can't move like this. Just because they're both big Euro centers doesn't mean they have the same athletic profile

GSP wrote:Marc had much better lateral movement and quicker feet, and his anticipation and positioning is a lot better. He was one of the smartest defensive players of the past era too. Being a smart offensive player doesn't mean you'll automatically be a smart defensive player. Also he hasn't ever had the fraction of the load Jokic does on offense not many players in history have. To be as good as Jokic on offense and as good as Marc on defense you're basically gonna be close to a prime Bron or Mj level player and the motor required by that just almost never happens

Also I don't think the different era part holds weight. Marc was the Raptors defensive anchor literally 2 seasons ago and their best defender through the playoffs. He even did a great job on help defense against Steph and also locked up Vucevic, Embiid and was critical in defending Giannis.

Watch on YouTube

And he was in his mid 30s not at his defensive peak from years prior where he was much more mobile

I am not sure how much faster Gasol feet were, actually, at least looking at video.

this 95% on his anticipation and positioning.
Here's clearly better than Jokic laterally, but he kept a simila impact even later when he did further slow down.

And it bring on my second point, Jokic is elite as well in terms of anticipation.

The real thing where I agree is his motor and bigger load, that makes him limit the way he contests a shot, also to avoid picking up fouls.
But I still think that you could do much better especially if you build the roster and defensive strategy to cover him up.

I think Jokic's offensive duties are always going to limit the effort he can put on defence.
Don't really know what people are expecting here.

If Jokic could play near DPOY level defence while still carrying the same offensive load he'd be a very strong GOAT candidate.

What stops Gasol from becoming another Jokic on offense? People should realize that defense is not all about effort and athleticism. Jokic will never be able to defend like Gasol, just like Gasol will never reach Jokic passing vision.

70sFan wrote:What stops Gasol from becoming another Jokic on offense? People should realize that defense is not all about effort and athleticism. Jokic will never be able to defend like Gasol, just like Gasol will never reach Jokic passing vision.

What is (was) Gasol having there that Jokic is missing?
I really don't think it's the hands, smarts and anticipation

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:

70sFan wrote:What stops Gasol from becoming another Jokic on offense? People should realize that defense is not all about effort and athleticism. Jokic will never be able to defend like Gasol, just like Gasol will never reach Jokic passing vision.

What is (was) Gasol having there that Jokic is missing?
I really don't think it's the hands, smarts and anticipation

Gasol reads the game far better on defense, he also has better fundamentals in terms of footwork and positioning. Seriously, comparing Jokic to Gasol in terms of footwork is like comparing average shooter to elite one.

Gasol is defnitely smarter defender with better anticipation. It's not even close.

Bump, how would rethink this? Is the next evolution of Jokic looking more and more like Marc on defense? Or he maybe already got there in the post season?

I haven't changed my evaluation of Jokic defense much, maybe outside of realizing his weaknesses are not nearly as problematic as I thought before. He's still far from Gasol defensively and I still don't see him being on that level.

One thing with Jokic, he's not just conserving energy, he's also avoiding foul trouble which is important since he's so incredibly valuable to the offense. The further he gets into a game without picking up fouls, the more aggressively he defends and the better his rim defense gets.

Gasol can play harder on D.

iggymcfrack wrote:One thing with Jokic, he's not just conserving energy, he's also avoiding foul trouble which is important since he's so incredibly valuable to the offense. The further he gets into a game without picking up fouls, the more aggressively he defends and the better his rim defense gets.

This is what I see as well. Jokic ratchets up the defensive intensity toward the end of games when he knows he has fouls to give. I'm also sure that it's part of the Nuggets' coaching to have him let some plays go early on in games to avoid him being in foul trouble.

I still don't see anything really preventing him from being more similar to Gasol on defense.

Peregrine01 wrote:I still don't see anything really preventing him from being more similar to Gasol on defense.

Well, I don't see anything suggesting him being similar either

70sFan wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:I still don't see anything really preventing him from being more similar to Gasol on defense.

Well, I don't see anything suggesting him being similar either

positioning and anticipation instead of quickness, great hands, use of size and strength, length...
actually they do play defense EXACTLY the same way, it's not like we're comparing Bruce Bowen to Andrei Kirilenko

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:I still don't see anything really preventing him from being more similar to Gasol on defense.

Well, I don't see anything suggesting him being similar either

positioning and anticipation instead of quickness, great hands, use of size and strength, length...
actually they do play defense EXACTLY the same way, it's not like we're comparing Bruce Bowen to Andrei Kirilenko

Playing similar way doesn't mean much if one player is significantly better at playing that way than the other.

iggymcfrack wrote:One thing with Jokic, he's not just conserving energy, he's also avoiding foul trouble which is important since he's so incredibly valuable to the offense. The further he gets into a game without picking up fouls, the more aggressively he defends and the better his rim defense gets.

Just to add some numbers from 2022-23 regular season:

Nuggets DEFRTG - 113.5 (15th in the NBA)
Jokic DEFRTG - 111.6

Jokic DEFRTG by quarters
1st - 111.6
2nd - 116.0
3rd - 112.9
4th - 109.4

Nuggets DEFRTG in the clutch - 99.3 (3rd in the NBA, 142 min)
Jokic DEFRTG in the clutch - 92.9

BelgradeNugget wrote:

iggymcfrack wrote:One thing with Jokic, he's not just conserving energy, he's also avoiding foul trouble which is important since he's so incredibly valuable to the offense. The further he gets into a game without picking up fouls, the more aggressively he defends and the better his rim defense gets.

Just to add some numbers from 2022-23 regular season:

Nuggets DEFRTG - 113.5 (15th in the NBA)
Jokic DEFRTG - 111.6

Jokic DEFRTG by quarters
1st - 111.6
2nd - 116.0
3rd - 112.9
4th - 109.4

Nuggets DEFRTG in the clutch - 99.3 (3rd in the NBA, 142 min)
Jokic DEFRTG in the clutch - 92.9

Hate to be the guy, but clutch numbers are basically useless due to insane noise to signal ratio.

Also, what's the league average DRtg for each quarter? I'd assume 4th quarters are lower on average.

70sFan wrote:

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:

70sFan wrote:Well, I don't see anything suggesting him being similar either

positioning and anticipation instead of quickness, great hands, use of size and strength, length...
actually they do play defense EXACTLY the same way, it's not like we're comparing Bruce Bowen to Andrei Kirilenko

Playing similar way doesn't mean much if one player is significantly better at playing that way than the other.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to how good the whole Grizzlies roster was on defense. They were built with that in mind.

Marc's prime (2013) also came before pace and space became the predominant way of playing. You replace current Jokic with Marc and I don't think you're going to see some dramatic improvement in the Nuggets' defense.

Peregrine01 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
positioning and anticipation instead of quickness, great hands, use of size and strength, length...
actually they do play defense EXACTLY the same way, it's not like we're comparing Bruce Bowen to Andrei Kirilenko

Playing similar way doesn't mean much if one player is significantly better at playing that way than the other.

I don't think you're giving enough credit to how good the whole Grizzlies roster was on defense. They were built with that in mind.

Marc's prime (2013) also came before pace and space became the predominant way of playing. You replace current Jokic with Marc and I don't think you're going to see some dramatic improvement in the Nuggets' defense.

We have seen Gasol in different teams with different coaches and different rosters, yet he always made a huge impact on defense.

About era - come on, Gasol was arguably the most impactful defender on per minute basis in 2019, when he was past his prime and it was 4 years ago.

70sFan wrote:

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:

70sFan wrote:What stops Gasol from becoming another Jokic on offense? People should realize that defense is not all about effort and athleticism. Jokic will never be able to defend like Gasol, just like Gasol will never reach Jokic passing vision.

What is (was) Gasol having there that Jokic is missing?
I really don't think it's the hands, smarts and anticipation

Gasol reads the game far better on defense, he also has better fundamentals in terms of footwork and positioning. Seriously, comparing Jokic to Gasol in terms of footwork is like comparing average shooter to elite one.

Gasol is defnitely smarter defender with better anticipation. It's not even close.

Beat me to it — I think there is just an overall under-appreciation from makes a really good defender (not speaking about anyone poster specifically). I’ve had the pleasure to attend a few games that he has played, and he was a defensive maestro.

— people already mentioned his foot work and lateral movement though and his younger years is athleticism a little bit underrated
— he had great court awareness, and so he would position himself accordingly, including boxing out players, so that a teammate to get a rebound.
— he contested shots well without fouling, which isn’t easy to do. There has been a lot of talk about the high school player Cooper Flagg who has an exceptional ability to contest perimeter shots using his LinkedIn athleticism without fouling.
— he read opposing defenses so well, which made him rotate quickly and provide great health defense. Watching him play, he was communicating on the floor all the time, telling people where to go moving them around
— he was just really smart in the way that he read ball-screen actions and made the right read most of the time regardless of what coverage the team was

Jokić could get a little bit better with some slight improvement but he’s never going to be someone like Marc Gasol. What’s interesting to me is that even with the limitations that were mentioned about lateral movement, etc., I find it interesting that Jokic doesn’t read offenses as well, and as quickly as he reads defenses to create offense out of nothing. Either that or he does, and he doesn’t communicate it on court. It’s actually really fascinating.