Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion?

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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#81 » by HeartBreakKid » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:46 am

DCasey91 wrote:Outside of that though I can’t see a reason why he didn’t force the issue more. He was finesse yes but still the charity stripe should be part and parcel for a big.

DROB had that issue too. Now Ewing I never thought he could anchor an offense but DROB I could. Hakeem is the bench mark which Giannis really does that have that level with Shaq/Lebron type volume.

Era etc etc, I just found Duncan to be more trustworthy when push comes to shove. Team offense and individual scoring are two different things. Nash and Stockton and Paul have brilliant Ortg’s. But could they anchor as a one? No.

Means to say let’s keep the offense afloat I’ll take it from here sort of thing.

Funny Embiid just needs want Giannis has right now and a little more, I believe he can really dominate provided the right pieces are available.

Even though it was subpar for a contending team I didn’t mind the setup once it was altogether with Cassell, Sprewel and Wally (He was undersized but did have variety) and Fred shooting off the bench. Can’t for the life of me remember the shooting guard it’s been that long ago now lol.

Remember ways back a Nash led Suns team cooked them at home twice. Was thinking to myself at the time if Nash and Garnett were together that would be ominous. Slide Cassell over and run it.


Chris Paul and Nash absolutely could and have anchored as 1s. They are better scorers than Tim Duncan. I think you're letting their pass first and lack of hardware cloud your judgement. For instance, Chris Paul was his teams lead scorer in 2008 and 2009, and did indeed average about the same amount of points as Timmy.

Steve Nash was never on a team where it was necessary for him to average more points.

That's not to mention that they are creating their own offense much more.

Though I am not sure what you mean by #1. If you mean someone who is averaging near or above 30 points per game, then no Nash/Paul are not that type of guy, but neither is Duncan. Duncan won titles as the lead scorer on his team, but that is also because his teams did not need a mega dynamic scorer (due to Duncan influencing the game on the other end). Just like a player like Stockton doesn't need to average 25 points because he's already generating so much through his APG.


In other words, all time great defenders and all time great passers do not need to score as much to "get the job done".
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#82 » by DCasey91 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:49 am

I have a really really hard time envisioning Paul or Nash being the best scorer on a championship team.

I just don’t think Garnett could do what did Duncan and carry a teams offense (scoring) in a playoffs scenario that run by Duncan was absurd.

Stockton did get criticized for it and Nash even said it himself he should have shot the ball more.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#83 » by dygaction » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:11 am

DCasey91 wrote:I have a really really hard time envisioning Paul or Nash being the best scorer on a championship team.

I just don’t think Garnett could do what did Duncan and carry a teams offense (scoring) in a playoffs scenario that run by Duncan was absurd.

Stockton did get criticized for it and Nash even said it himself he should have shot the ball more.


Putting Paul or Nash on 04 Pistons they could be the best scorer and win.
KG's offense can be limited to relatively low efficiency, and could not demand double team to create open opportunities for teammates, that's where the wolves struggled.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#84 » by DCasey91 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:14 am

Paul yes Nash no. The whole dynamic changes then. Nash wasn’t a bad defender he was awful

Still Chauncey is an elite PG with Height.

But you’re talking about an outlier defensive gauntlet team that is kryptonite and a literal crusher against a Dynasty team.

Generally, no I don’t think either Nash or CP3 are number one scorers at all on a chip team. At least if building one I wouldn’t do that.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#85 » by migya » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:22 am

HeartBreakKid wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:Has anyone figured out why Garnett didn’t score more? I can’t, I wish he just scored more.

At times he looked like a bigger Kobe on his midrange repertoire of shots. Don’t know and I can’t put my finger on it still even now. Was it a forced issue, gameplan? Etc.

I trust Duncan as the head option more then Garnett even at their very best. That’s where I dock Garnett the most.


He actually scored a lot for his era, and the Wolves were more times than not a better offensive team than defensive, though that has a lot to do with the roleplayers.


Coaching is really the biggest thing, Garnett wasn't used well. There was this stigma that 7 footers had to play a certain way, and this lead to Garnett playing down low back to the basketball way more than he should have - which in turn lead to him taking a lot of weak fade aways.

Garnett also did not play with a great PG for most of his career or one that specialized in the pick and roll. And of course the PnR in his era was not as good as it is today, as most of his career was pre D'Antoni. Looking at his attributes he would be a really special roll guy, great vertical leap, coordination and touch around the him. The shooting part and high post passing is a no brainer as well - not seeing Garnett in a PnR heavy offense is the real tragedy of his career.

In fact, Garnett often times had to initiate his teams offense from beyond the arc.



Valid points but Garnett didn't look to score as much as he should've. Taking it to the basket more would've drawn more fouls and thus more points. Had he applied Robinson's sort of scoring style a bit, he wasn't as quick, he would've scored much more.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#86 » by drza » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:38 pm

I think those arguing against Giannis by minimizing this season's Bucks championship run or questioning whether he can replicate what he did individually in this season's playoffs are making a mistake. Ironically, in future years I think it'll be clear that as a team/coach/strategy, this year's Bucks barely grazed the surface for what they can be and that this year's team will be considered their floor in future years. I wrote back in...wow, March of 2018...that Giannis was the next evolution of LeBron, with similar impact and upside, as long as he was utilized more as a PF/C (vs LeBron's point-forward ascension). That his career arc would be similar to LeBron's, just offset by 10 years. And if you look at their individual results from 2008/18, 2009/19, 2010/20...etc...there are pretty eerie similarities.

But, I'm digressing. My point is, Giannis has been playing on roughly the level he played this season for the multiple years, and he will continue on that level or higher as an individual impact player moving forward. What changed for the Bucks' team results, this season, was part and parcel tied to better personnel and a better approach. The "wall", so to speak, that the Bucks' team ran into in previous years was that they were trying to utilize Giannis (or Giannis was wanting to play) like point-forward LeBron, not PF/C LeBron. Giannis was good enough to be a multiple-MVP and put up absurd individual stats in that role, but to be maximized individually (and for the team results to be maximized) they needed him to move to the interior. Which meant they needed perimeter players capable of performing at a high enough level for Giannis to move off-ball. In 2020, the Bucks' starting backcourt of Bledsoe and Wes Matthews was emphatically NOT capable of doing that, especially in the postseason. Middleton was good enough, but he was being utilized more as a shooter/scorer and less as a ballhandler/creator, as they ceded those duties to Giannis. Which he couldn't do well enough when faced with a strong team defensive wall.

But, and this seems to be overlooked almost universally...if a team is building a WALL to stop one player, then they are dramatically weakening their ability to defend everyone else on the offense. So Giannis, even when facing an effective wall that lowers his own individual numbers, is having a mega impact on opposing defenses. He just needs/needed a supporting cast capable of taking advantage of the opportunities he created for them. This year, with Holiday/Di Vincenzo & more on-ball Middleton, he had a cast capable of doing that.

Di Vincenzo's injury in the first series of the playoffs was one of, IMO, the most underreported events of the playoffs. Not because Di Vincenzo was some type of hidden star, but because by the Bucks replacing him in the lineup with PJ Tucker, it pushed their team strategy right back into the more perimeter Giannis-centric approach that doomed them in previous years. Instead of playing off ball as a big man, Giannis was being relied upon again to create way too often from out top. And this happened just in time for the Brooklyn series, which was THE worst time it could've happened. Look at how Giannis did against the Nets in the regular season...they were a donut, and he TORCHED them. But in the playoffs, suddenly he can be credibly defended by Blake Griffin? No, Donte's injury and Giannis trying to create more from out top led to even a weak defensive Nets squad being able to build enough wall that the Bucks' team offense went to borderline ineffective. THAT Bucks team did have to rely on luck and injury to get past the Nets, because they were playing stylistically with a hand tied behind their backs.

Anyway, this is getting long. My point is, the Bucks team that won this year is likely the worst Bucks team you're going to see during this iteration. Di Vincenzo will be back, and having won a chip there's a reasonable chance the Bucks can bring in better perimeter talent on the cheap with guys wanting to play with a champion. If/when they lock in their smarter strategy more firmly, with better perimeter talent AND the confidence/performance leap that comes with having won a title, the Bucks are set to make a leap next year. Unlike Vegas, at this moment I see the Bucks as the clear favorite to win the chip next year. And, back on topic, all of these "but the Bucks had an easy path" or "I need to see Giannis do it again" takes aren't going to age very well moving forward. Giannis is that deal. And he's headed for the top-10 of all-time lists with a bullet. And I'm happy to see that, for what appears to be a good dude and an enormously talented player.

(I personally still have Garnett rated significantly above Giannis, and even higher than the sky-like future I expect for Giannis. But that's because I think that, despite the "RealGM loves KG" perception, most people here still SIGNIFICANTLY underrate what Garnett was as a player. But that's another post for a different day, and besides I've spent much of the last two decades making that case so I won't add another book to this particular post on that subject 8-) )
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#87 » by BobbyPortisFan » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:01 pm

dygaction wrote:
BobbyPortisFan wrote:
dygaction wrote:Isn't that what you want to argue?

i assume people mean relative to era. KG played so many minuites because his team wasn't as deep. IN 2021 when the bucks had a shallow team giannis was a lot worse in the regular season and played 38 minuites. In 2020 he only had to play liek 33 minuites a game.

Usually the more you play, the less effective you get and the less you play the more effectiev you get. In the playoffs this doesn't matter so much but seeding can help a team win so.


Giannis last year's offense rate/efficiency was similar to Curry's 2016 and he had the highest PER in the league history. The Bucks usually blew the other teams away in the first 3 quarters, so he did not have to play long.
Giannis 2020: 29.5ppg in 30.4 min (or 34.9p per 36min) @ .613 TS%
Garnett 2004: 24.2ppg in 39.4 min (or 22.1p per 36min) @ .547 TS%

Giannis scores at 58% :crazy: :nod: higher rate than KG with higher efficiency. Giannis himself is the reason his team can have the cushion to win and he can have more rest. I know the pace is faster now but it is nowhere close to this gigantic gap. Whoever interested can do more adjust to compare further.

who cares what PER says...it just arbitrarily weighs box score and it can't predict anything. Yeah giannis is a better scorer but kg is a better passer and is probably a better defender, at least in the regular season anyway.

Five year RAPM
Lebron 8.8
Shaq 8.1
KG 7.9

KG took a team with mininmal help to fifty eight wins and then took the kobe/shaq/payton/malone superteam to six without his second best player. KG had similar impact per possession while playing more and when giannis had to play more because his team wasn't as deep his impact plummeted.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#88 » by dygaction » Fri Jul 23, 2021 5:46 pm

BobbyPortisFan wrote:
dygaction wrote:
BobbyPortisFan wrote:i assume people mean relative to era. KG played so many minuites because his team wasn't as deep. IN 2021 when the bucks had a shallow team giannis was a lot worse in the regular season and played 38 minuites. In 2020 he only had to play liek 33 minuites a game.

Usually the more you play, the less effective you get and the less you play the more effectiev you get. In the playoffs this doesn't matter so much but seeding can help a team win so.


Giannis last year's offense rate/efficiency was similar to Curry's 2016 and he had the highest PER in the league history. The Bucks usually blew the other teams away in the first 3 quarters, so he did not have to play long.
Giannis 2020: 29.5ppg in 30.4 min (or 34.9p per 36min) @ .613 TS%
Garnett 2004: 24.2ppg in 39.4 min (or 22.1p per 36min) @ .547 TS%

Giannis scores at 58% :crazy: :nod: higher rate than KG with higher efficiency. Giannis himself is the reason his team can have the cushion to win and he can have more rest. I know the pace is faster now but it is nowhere close to this gigantic gap. Whoever interested can do more adjust to compare further.

who cares what PER says...it just arbitrarily weighs box score and it can't predict anything. Yeah giannis is a better scorer but kg is a better passer and is probably a better defender, at least in the regular season anyway.

Five year RAPM
Lebron 8.8
Shaq 8.1
KG 7.9

KG took a team with mininmal help to fifty eight wins and then took the kobe/shaq/payton/malone superteam to six without his second best player. KG had similar impact per possession while playing more and when giannis had to play more because his team wasn't as deep his impact plummeted.


You know what is not arbitrary like PER or RAPM and does not need to be predicative? Actual win or loss.

26 yr old Giannis has won 7 playoff series with 1 FMVP. KG won 2 playoff series in 12 years at age 30. Great players need to find a way to win or upset higher seed in given situations, not to justify why lose. If they cannot, they move down the ladder to make room for other greats.

9 players in 2004 Wolves team played more than 200 min playoffs games. KG's .513 TS% was #8 only ahead of Olowokandi dragging team's overall offensive efficiency down by taking the most shots. TWolves defense was always mediocre but his fans claim KG was ATG defensively and blame it on teammates were offensive oriented. Then they claim KG to be excellent offensively as TWolves offense ranking was above average even thought the whole team was constructed to favor offense. The fact is he was not dominant enough on either end. Dirk/Nash could anchor all time offense so their teams could focus on defensive help. Howard and Mutombo were dominant enough to anchor great defense with flawed roster to allow more offense from other positions.

That Lakers super team had lots of internal problems and lost crisply 1:4 to Pistons in the next round.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#89 » by prejt » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:12 pm

Not really. Giannis is much better and its not all that close.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#90 » by migya » Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:20 am

dygaction wrote:Pity people who cannot drop pacifier from years ago and welcome the next TRUE big after Shaq and Duncan.
Giannis playing in any era on any team would not have missed playoffs 3 years in a row.



Giannis has the near perfect team around him to succeed with his skill set and current style and rules.

Middleton is a good robin, multi talented with few flaws in his role,
Lopez's career was gone until he got to the Bucks. He shoots well and defend well with his length.
Tucker defends well and shoots quite well.
Holiday is a great defender, good shooter and playmaker.
Bench is pretty good.

Garnett had practically nothing next to him in his prime in Minnesota, except Cassell and to a lesser extent Sprewell in 2004.Can't be compared to Giannis' Bucks. From 2000 to 2003 his teams were:

Szczerbiak was a shooter only and that was only for two seasons, he was average at everything else.
Anthony Peeler was average at best.
Nesterovic was also average at best.
Terrell Brandon was an underrated player that was quite good, could shoot and playmake well, but injuries had made him less than what he was in mid 90s.
Bench was below average.

Think it's easy to see the situation. They won 50, 47, 50 and 51 respectively those seasons.

Tucker, Bucks' worst starter in the finals is better than all except Brandon and maybe Szczerbiak but his defense probably makes him more valuable than even him.

From 2005-2007: Same starters mostly.
Cassell dropped 6 and a half points a game and became average for a starter.
Szczerbiak regressed.
Hassell could defend but was below average at everything else.
Olowokandi replaced Nesterovic and was a bit worse, a bust to say the least.
Sprewell was awful.
Marco Jaric traded for Cassell in 2005 and a scrub.
Ricky Davis, the ball hog, replaced Szczerbiak and was as bad but worse shooter.
Marcus Banks was average PG.
Bench still below average.

Gannett was not able to take they worse team to the playoffs, noone could.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#91 » by dygaction » Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:48 am

migya wrote:
dygaction wrote:Pity people who cannot drop pacifier from years ago and welcome the next TRUE big after Shaq and Duncan.
Giannis playing in any era on any team would not have missed playoffs 3 years in a row.



Giannis has the near perfect team around him to succeed with his skill set and current style and rules.

Middleton is a good robin, multi talented with few flaws in his role,
Lopez's career was gone until he got to the Bucks. He shoots well and defend well with his length.
Tucker defends well and shoots quite well.
Holiday is a great defender, good shooter and playmaker.
Bench is pretty good.

Garnett had practically nothing next to him in his prime in Minnesota, except Cassell and to a lesser extent Sprewell in 2004.Can't be compared to Giannis' Bucks. From 2000 to 2003 his teams were:

Szczerbiak was a shooter only and that was only for two seasons, he was average at everything else.
Anthony Peeler was average at best.
Nesterovic was also average at best.
Terrell Brandon was an underrated player that was quite good, could shoot and playmake well, but injuries had made him less than what he was in mid 90s.
Bench was below average.

Think it's easy to see the situation. They won 50, 47, 50 and 51 respectively those seasons.

Tucker, Bucks' worst starter in the finals is better than all except Brandon and maybe Szczerbiak but his defense probably makes him more valuable than even him.

From 2005-2007: Same starters mostly.
Cassell dropped 6 and a half points a game and became average for a starter.
Szczerbiak regressed.
Hassell could defend but was below average at everything else.
Olowokandi replaced Nesterovic and was a bit worse, a bust to say the least.
Sprewell was awful.
Marco Jaric traded for Cassell in 2005 and a scrub.
Ricky Davis, the ball hog, replaced Szczerbiak and was as bad but worse shooter.
Marcus Banks was average PG.
Bench still below average.

Gannett was not able to take they worse team to the playoffs, noone could.




Giannis 2020: 29.5ppg in 30.4 min (or 34.9p per 36min) @ .613 TS%
Garnett 2004: 24.2ppg in 39.4 min (or 22.1p per 36min) @ .547 TS%

Giannis scores at a much higher rate than KG with higher efficiency. Whoever interested can do more adjust to compensate for the pace difference and compare further. Their defensive and playmaking impact are similar. Giannis in 2005 could have easily given TWolves 3-5 more net pts a game and make playoffs.

Competitive team sports win vs. lose is what matters the most. 2016 Warriors won over Thunders directly led to KD joining and OKC rebuild. I see many here are looking too deep into numbers or specific advanced metrics to remake players and reinvent their legacies but ignore the elephant in the room. Top 15 and top 20 are all all time greats, but with Giannis winning, he would naturally move up the ladder as he proves he can win and does not need to explain why failure. He could easily have missed the finals if not for his other worldly durability. It was because of Giannis' rocksteady baseline of 35/13/5 that can allow for PJ Tucker as a 4pt/3.5pf starter. The beauty of winning is that Giannis fans do not have to blame losing on Tucker being offensively impaired.
Giannis finals scoring average of 35.2ppg is higher than KG's playoff career high. His TS% is .592 through the past 5 years of playoffs including his pre prime years. That's after battling with Raptors' Kawhi/Siakam/Ibaka/Gasol and Heat's Butler/Crowder/Iguodala/Bam defense walls. KG's career playoff best was .569 TS%. Giannis is at least two tiers above as an offensive player. That's what really separates them.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#92 » by feyki » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:54 am

27/5 in the early 00's is much more impactful than 30/5 in the 2021, but if Yannis had not that much gap over KG on the efficiency. I think KG had higher offensive load, but Yannis had the efficiency; overall I'd take Yannis slightly, offensively. But there's no debate on the defence, to me. KG was way better. With both on the offence and the defence, KG's peak one of the 15 best peaks in the history. Yannis is arguably top 25, I still can't put him over of names like Kobe,Elgin,Barkley,Moses; despite the his efficiency upgrade(don't think his total impact changed much, just stopped the creation at the highest volume and play the 62 Wilt role).
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#93 » by sansterre » Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:10 pm

dygaction wrote:You know what is not arbitrary like PER or RAPM and does not need to be predicative? Actual win or loss.

You know what's always confused me about Kobe Bryant's career?

What the heck happened to him from 2005-07?

I mean, here he is, averaging 50+ wins a year for five straight years, winning three championships and then suddenly he's only a bad player. I mean, any way you slice it, 34 wins is way below average. Even when he got his act together in '06 and '07, it was only to just be barely above average (45 and 42 wins). The fools that care about box score metrics would argue that Kobe's 2006 might have been one of the best volume scoring seasons ever, but one look at the wins column makes clear that they were only empty stats. Luckily for his legacy he turned his game around in 2008 (around mid-season curiously) and won 57+ games each of the next three years (and two rings).

Just think. If Kobe had never played with Shaq or a strong supporting cast in the '08-10 run, there's a decent chance you'd be telling us that Kobe was clearly not that good and needed to "move down the ladder to make room for other greats". Doesn't it seem a little crazy to you that Jordan magically became a "great" once Pippen and Grant developed?

In 2004, the year that Garnett 'should have won', he was 57.8% of his team's VORP. That is an insane number. Great teams do not rely on one player that much, or rather, they don't have to. Of my Top 100 teams, only one team posted a higher share of their team's VORP (Jordan on the '93 Bulls). Only 7 teams of my Top 100 had their best player provide more than 50% of the VORP on the team: LeBron did it four times, Jordan did it twice and Bird did it once. And it's worth mentioning that of those seven teams only four won the championship (the '17 Cavs, '09 Cavs and the '85 Celtics are the ones that didn't).

The only guys who have ever been able to make winners out of teams where they were a disproportionate amount of the roster quality are arguably the two best all-around players ever (and Bird in something of an outlier season). Nobody's saying that Garnett is at their level. But it's possible that you're underestimating the role that good teammates have in forging "individual" greatness.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#94 » by falcolombardi » Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:14 pm

migya wrote:
dygaction wrote:Pity people who cannot drop pacifier from years ago and welcome the next TRUE big after Shaq and Duncan.
Giannis playing in any era on any team would not have missed playoffs 3 years in a row.



Giannis has the near perfect team around him to succeed with his skill set and current style and rules.

Middleton is a good robin, multi talented with few flaws in his role,
Lopez's career was gone until he got to the Bucks. He shoots well and defend well with his length.
Tucker defends well and shoots quite well.
Holiday is a great defender, good shooter and playmaker.
Bench is pretty good.

Garnett had practically nothing next to him in his prime in Minnesota, except Cassell and to a lesser extent Sprewell in 2004.Can't be compared to Giannis' Bucks. From 2000 to 2003 his teams were:

Szczerbiak was a shooter only and that was only for two seasons, he was average at everything else.
Anthony Peeler was average at best.
Nesterovic was also average at best.
Terrell Brandon was an underrated player that was quite good, could shoot and playmake well, but injuries had made him less than what he was in mid 90s.
Bench was below average.

Think it's easy to see the situation. They won 50, 47, 50 and 51 respectively those seasons.

Tucker, Bucks' worst starter in the finals is better than all except Brandon and maybe Szczerbiak but his defense probably makes him more valuable than even him.

From 2005-2007: Same starters mostly.
Cassell dropped 6 and a half points a game and became average for a starter.
Szczerbiak regressed.
Hassell could defend but was below average at everything else.
Olowokandi replaced Nesterovic and was a bit worse, a bust to say the least.
Sprewell was awful.
Marco Jaric traded for Cassell in 2005 and a scrub.
Ricky Davis, the ball hog, replaced Szczerbiak and was as bad but worse shooter.
Marcus Banks was average PG.
Bench still below average.

Gannett was not able to take they worse team to the playoffs, noone could.


now you are overstating it a bit/a lot. we know giannis cast is better but you dont need to overstate the bucks

hollyday is not a good shooter, and was below average most of the playoffs (doesnt stop making him a good player tho)

middleton is excelent but he is middle of the road or lower as far as championship second best players go

tucker is a good corner shooter but only shots from the corneta, his impact in spacing is less than hiis percentages suggest and puts a lot less pressure on defense that shooters with maybe worse percentages that can shoot in more situations

López is a solid player but with clear weakness against defending in space many teams took advantage of

a really good cast but nothingh out of the ordinary for contenders imo
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#95 » by Lemnas » Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:42 pm

The KG vs. Giannis debate has been done a couple of times already. Here are some old threads for those who are interested:

What player will Giannis look like in the future (from 2017):
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1552423

2008 Garnett vs 2017-18 Giannis
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1636244

four from 2019:
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1821652
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1839705
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1874691 (imo the best discussion)
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1803892
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#96 » by BobbyPortisFan » Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:00 am

falcolombardi wrote:
migya wrote:
dygaction wrote:Pity people who cannot drop pacifier from years ago and welcome the next TRUE big after Shaq and Duncan.
Giannis playing in any era on any team would not have missed playoffs 3 years in a row.



Giannis has the near perfect team around him to succeed with his skill set and current style and rules.

Middleton is a good robin, multi talented with few flaws in his role,
Lopez's career was gone until he got to the Bucks. He shoots well and defend well with his length.
Tucker defends well and shoots quite well.
Holiday is a great defender, good shooter and playmaker.
Bench is pretty good.

Garnett had practically nothing next to him in his prime in Minnesota, except Cassell and to a lesser extent Sprewell in 2004.Can't be compared to Giannis' Bucks. From 2000 to 2003 his teams were:

Szczerbiak was a shooter only and that was only for two seasons, he was average at everything else.
Anthony Peeler was average at best.
Nesterovic was also average at best.
Terrell Brandon was an underrated player that was quite good, could shoot and playmake well, but injuries had made him less than what he was in mid 90s.
Bench was below average.

Think it's easy to see the situation. They won 50, 47, 50 and 51 respectively those seasons.

Tucker, Bucks' worst starter in the finals is better than all except Brandon and maybe Szczerbiak but his defense probably makes him more valuable than even him.

From 2005-2007: Same starters mostly.
Cassell dropped 6 and a half points a game and became average for a starter.
Szczerbiak regressed.
Hassell could defend but was below average at everything else.
Olowokandi replaced Nesterovic and was a bit worse, a bust to say the least.
Sprewell was awful.
Marco Jaric traded for Cassell in 2005 and a scrub.
Ricky Davis, the ball hog, replaced Szczerbiak and was as bad but worse shooter.
Marcus Banks was average PG.
Bench still below average.

Gannett was not able to take they worse team to the playoffs, noone could.


now you are overstating it a bit/a lot. we know giannis cast is better but you dont need to overstate the bucks

hollyday is not a good shooter, and was below average most of the playoffs (doesnt stop making him a good player tho)

middleton is excelent but he is middle of the road or lower as far as championship second best players go

tucker is a good corner shooter but only shots from the corneta, his impact in spacing is less than hiis percentages suggest and puts a lot less pressure on defense that shooters with maybe worse percentages that can shoot in more situations

López is a solid player but with clear weakness against defending in space many teams took advantage of

a really good cast but nothingh out of the ordinary for contenders imo

The bucks are the worst playoff shooters in the league. Almost any other cntender in the league right now would be a better fit for giannis
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#97 » by dygaction » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:34 am

feyki wrote:27/5 in the early 00's is much more impactful than 30/5 in the 2021, but if Yannis had not that much gap over KG on the efficiency. I think KG had higher offensive load, but Yannis had the efficiency; overall I'd take Yannis slightly, offensively. But there's no debate on the defence, to me. KG was way better. With both on the offence and the defence, KG's peak one of the 15 best peaks in the history. Yannis is arguably top 25, I still can't put him over of names like Kobe,Elgin,Barkley,Moses; despite the his efficiency upgrade(don't think his total impact changed much, just stopped the creation at the highest volume and play the 62 Wilt role).


KG never had 27/5 though. His career high was 24.2/5 in 39.4min.
Giannis 2020 was 29.5/5.6 in 30.4 min.

Or per 36, or per 100 poss, or per win/loss results... There is no way you rationalize their gap in offense was small. When people finally realize that Giannis is an all timer, his 2020 MVP season will be revisited to rank above KG's 2004.

His raw stats are way more impressive, and majority of advanced stats also are better. KG's was an all timer, but Giannis' was better. It's not like KG anchored a much greater defense or led to a historical winning team. Bucks were the league #1 team (.767 W/L%, +9.5 NRtg(highest)). TWolves were #2 team (.707W/L%, +6.2NRtg(#4)).

Per 100:
Giannis: 44.2p/20.4r/8.4a/116 ORtg/97 DRtg/31.9PER/11.5BPM/.613TS%
Garnett: 33.2p/19.0r/6.8a/112 ORtg/92 DRtg/29.4PER/10.2BPM/.547TS%

Look back, Giannis has better stats, efficiency, team record... The only advantage you can argue is KG's defense, but the fact that Bucks had league #1 defense does not help.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#98 » by feyki » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:48 am

dygaction wrote:
feyki wrote:27/5 in the early 00's is much more impactful than 30/5 in the 2021, but if Yannis had not that much gap over KG on the efficiency. I think KG had higher offensive load, but Yannis had the efficiency; overall I'd take Yannis slightly, offensively. But there's no debate on the defence, to me. KG was way better. With both on the offence and the defence, KG's peak one of the 15 best peaks in the history. Yannis is arguably top 25, I still can't put him over of names like Kobe,Elgin,Barkley,Moses; despite the his efficiency upgrade(don't think his total impact changed much, just stopped the creation at the highest volume and play the 62 Wilt role).


KG never had 27/5 though. His career high was 24.2/5 in 39.4min.
Giannis 2020 was 29.5/5.6 in 30.4 min.

Or per 36, or per 100 poss, or per win/loss results... There is no way you rationalize their gap in offense was small. When people finally realize that Giannis is an all timer, his 2020 MVP season will be revisited to rank above KG's 2004.

His raw stats are way more impressive, and majority of advanced stats also are better. KG's was an all timer, but Giannis' was better. It's not like KG anchored a much greater defense or led to a historical winning team. Bucks were the league #1 team (.767 W/L%, +9.5 NRtg(highest)). TWolves were #2 team (.707W/L%, +6.2NRtg(#4)).

Per 100:
Giannis: 44.2p/20.4r/8.4a/116 ORtg/97 DRtg/31.9PER/11.5BPM/.613TS%
Garnett: 33.2p/19.0r/6.8a/112 ORtg/92 DRtg/29.4PER/10.2BPM/.547TS%

Look back, Giannis has better stats, efficiency, team record... The only advantage you can argue is KG's defense, but the fact that Bucks had league #1 defense does not help.


He played with 27/15,7/5,2 against the LA(104,5 Drtg), in the 2003 Playoffs. And the very next year, played with 23,7/13,5/4,5 against the LA(101,5 Drtg) in the 2004 WCF. Giannis faced in order 114,113 and 111,5 Drtg post first round in the 2021 Playoffs. Even, when you adjust poss defence it's almost over than 15 Offensive Rating difference between the two had faced. Of course, KG has higher load, but Giannis was more efficient, to be fair. But it also not a huge gap, before the finals he had average rTS against the 112 Drtg competition.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#99 » by dygaction » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:21 am

feyki wrote:
dygaction wrote:
feyki wrote:27/5 in the early 00's is much more impactful than 30/5 in the 2021, but if Yannis had not that much gap over KG on the efficiency. I think KG had higher offensive load, but Yannis had the efficiency; overall I'd take Yannis slightly, offensively. But there's no debate on the defence, to me. KG was way better. With both on the offence and the defence, KG's peak one of the 15 best peaks in the history. Yannis is arguably top 25, I still can't put him over of names like Kobe,Elgin,Barkley,Moses; despite the his efficiency upgrade(don't think his total impact changed much, just stopped the creation at the highest volume and play the 62 Wilt role).


KG never had 27/5 though. His career high was 24.2/5 in 39.4min.
Giannis 2020 was 29.5/5.6 in 30.4 min.

Or per 36, or per 100 poss, or per win/loss results... There is no way you rationalize their gap in offense was small. When people finally realize that Giannis is an all timer, his 2020 MVP season will be revisited to rank above KG's 2004.

His raw stats are way more impressive, and majority of advanced stats also are better. KG's was an all timer, but Giannis' was better. It's not like KG anchored a much greater defense or led to a historical winning team. Bucks were the league #1 team (.767 W/L%, +9.5 NRtg(highest)). TWolves were #2 team (.707W/L%, +6.2NRtg(#4)).

Per 100:
Giannis: 44.2p/20.4r/8.4a/116 ORtg/97 DRtg/31.9PER/11.5BPM/.613TS%
Garnett: 33.2p/19.0r/6.8a/112 ORtg/92 DRtg/29.4PER/10.2BPM/.547TS%

Look back, Giannis has better stats, efficiency, team record... The only advantage you can argue is KG's defense, but the fact that Bucks had league #1 defense does not help.


He played with 27/15,7/5,2 against the LA(104,5 Drtg), in the 2003 Playoffs. And the very next year, played with 23,7/13,5/4,5 against the LA(101,5 Drtg) in the 2004 WCF. Giannis faced in order 114,113 and 111,5 Drtg post first round in the 2021 Playoffs. Even, when you adjust poss defence it's almost over than 15 Offensive Rating difference between the two had faced. Of course, KG has higher load, but Giannis was more efficient, to be fair. But it also not a huge gap, before the finals he had average rTS against the 112 Drtg competition.


You got to use regular seasons to have enough statistics to compare their MVP seasons.
Using two Lakers series from two different years where KG lost both to compare with Giannis title run do not sound fair. Just use one series, Dirk's 33.3/15.7 over KG in a 3:0 sweep would be game over between the discussion of these two.
Not one series in KG's career came close to Giannis' finals performance 35.2/13.2/5.0a/.658TS% facing 111.5 Drtg Suns.
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Re: Is 2021 Giannis vs peak KG a legit discussion? 

Post#100 » by migya » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:05 am

dygaction wrote:
feyki wrote:
dygaction wrote:
KG never had 27/5 though. His career high was 24.2/5 in 39.4min.
Giannis 2020 was 29.5/5.6 in 30.4 min.

Or per 36, or per 100 poss, or per win/loss results... There is no way you rationalize their gap in offense was small. When people finally realize that Giannis is an all timer, his 2020 MVP season will be revisited to rank above KG's 2004.

His raw stats are way more impressive, and majority of advanced stats also are better. KG's was an all timer, but Giannis' was better. It's not like KG anchored a much greater defense or led to a historical winning team. Bucks were the league #1 team (.767 W/L%, +9.5 NRtg(highest)). TWolves were #2 team (.707W/L%, +6.2NRtg(#4)).

Per 100:
Giannis: 44.2p/20.4r/8.4a/116 ORtg/97 DRtg/31.9PER/11.5BPM/.613TS%
Garnett: 33.2p/19.0r/6.8a/112 ORtg/92 DRtg/29.4PER/10.2BPM/.547TS%

Look back, Giannis has better stats, efficiency, team record... The only advantage you can argue is KG's defense, but the fact that Bucks had league #1 defense does not help.


He played with 27/15,7/5,2 against the LA(104,5 Drtg), in the 2003 Playoffs. And the very next year, played with 23,7/13,5/4,5 against the LA(101,5 Drtg) in the 2004 WCF. Giannis faced in order 114,113 and 111,5 Drtg post first round in the 2021 Playoffs. Even, when you adjust poss defence it's almost over than 15 Offensive Rating difference between the two had faced. Of course, KG has higher load, but Giannis was more efficient, to be fair. But it also not a huge gap, before the finals he had average rTS against the 112 Drtg competition.


You got to use regular seasons to have enough statistics to compare their MVP seasons.
Using two Lakers series from two different years where KG lost both to compare with Giannis title run do not sound fair. Just use one series, Dirk's 33.3/15.7 over KG in a 3:0 sweep would be game over between the discussion of these two.
Not one series in KG's career came close to Giannis' finals performance 35.2/13.2/5.0a/.658TS% facing 111.5 Drtg Suns.



That's good team Defensive Rating?

Garnett's TWolves lost to the Lakers in 2003 and they had 104.7 (19th of 29). Lost to them in 2004 and they had 101.3 (8th of 29).

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