Do we underrate Wilt nowadays?

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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#141 » by ty 4191 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:41 pm

countryboy667 wrote:Yes, we do. The ironic thing is that he's a victim of his own excellence and dominance. People who didn't SEE him find it hard to believe anyone could be that incredibly good. I saw him play in person several times, and he trashed some great competition (including Russell, in most instances) in a smaller league where top bigs faced each other more frequently than today--just as in his prime today he would trash guys like Jokic, Gobert, Embiid, Turner, or any other big you care to name. I've seen some great athletes in my 76 years--and he was easily the best of them all. Scariest thought of all is that because he was such a transcendent, surreally good all-around athlete, he might well have been just as dominant in ANY sport he had happened to compete in.


And, basically every single die hard NBA fan I've ever talked to, that saw Wilt (and everyone else) play quite a bit, says he was the greatest player they ever saw. They corroborate everything you just said.

Wilt was the greatest all around athlete and physical specimen in sports history.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#142 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:01 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
countryboy667 wrote:Yes, we do. The ironic thing is that he's a victim of his own excellence and dominance. People who didn't SEE him find it hard to believe anyone could be that incredibly good. I saw him play in person several times, and he trashed some great competition (including Russell, in most instances) in a smaller league where top bigs faced each other more frequently than today--just as in his prime today he would trash guys like Jokic, Gobert, Embiid, Turner, or any other big you care to name. I've seen some great athletes in my 76 years--and he was easily the best of them all. Scariest thought of all is that because he was such a transcendent, surreally good all-around athlete, he might well have been just as dominant in ANY sport he had happened to compete in.


And, basically every single die hard NBA fan I've ever talked to, that saw Wilt (and everyone else) play quite a bit, says he was the greatest player they ever saw. They corroborate everything you just said.

Wilt was the greatest all around athlete and physical specimen in sports history.

A lot of people who watched basketball back then believed that Russell was better than Wilt. The two were evenly matched by contemporaries.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#143 » by ty 4191 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:16 pm

70sFan wrote:A lot of people who watched basketball back then believed that Russell was better than Wilt. The two were evenly matched by contemporaries.


I seriously doubt it.

I'll look into this w empirical research. :D :wink:
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#144 » by prolific passer » Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:17 pm

No. We underrate Mr. Pettit.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#145 » by ty 4191 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 9:49 pm

prolific passer wrote:No. We underrate Mr. Pettit.


They're both underrated here. Tremendously.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#146 » by ty 4191 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:28 pm

Re: WIlt's alleged "massive dropoff" in playoff production.

1. Wilt played 52 playoff games while he was still leading in scoring. 1960-1966. He played 108 playoff games while he focused mostly on passing and defense.

2. He played 52 of 52 playoff games against Hall of Fame Centers (including 30 against GOAT Defender Bill Russell) from 1960-1966.

Despite THAT:

Wilt vs. HOF Centers during his scoring years: 1960-1966:

PTS/G RB/G AST/G FG% Games
Russell 30.5 28.7 2.7 0.507 30
Embry 27.8 19.8 6.3 0.488 4
Beaty 38.6 23.4 3.9 0.559
Pettit 38.6 23.4 3.9 0.559 7
Lucas 27.8 19.8 6.3 0.488
Schayes 37.5 24.3 2.,7 0.474 11

Averages/Total 33.5 23.2 4.6 0.513 52

Hall of Famers vs. Wilt:

PTS/G RB/G AST/G FG% Games
Russell 17.1 25.9 4.9 0.424 30
Embry 12.8 6.3 2 0.438 4
Beaty 14.1 8.6 2 0.438
Pettit 21.1 13.1 2.9 0.421 7
Lucas 23.3 21 2.3 0.507
Schayes 17.6 11.1 1.8 0.387 11

Averages/Total 17.6 14.3 2.7 0.436 52

Overall, during his scoring years, he averaged 33.1/25.8/3.2 on .502 shooting. The league shot .426 those years, for context.

According to 70s Fan's research, Wilt played against the greatest defenses ever faced, overall, during his prime (amongst all Top 25 Level Hall of Famers).
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#147 » by ty 4191 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:03 pm

According to my research, Wilt played 135 of 160 career playoff games against Hall of Fame Centers. This is unfathomable.

Overall Averages:

Wilt vs. 10 Hall of Famers: 25.8/22.6/4.4 on .530 shooting

10 HOFers vs. Wilt: 18.5/13.5/2.9 on .430 shooting

Total domination. This includes a nearly unthinkable 49 games against (very likely) the greatest defensive player of all time.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#148 » by ty 4191 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:38 pm

On Wilt's free throw costing his team championships...

Wilt shot .465 from the line in the playoffs, overall. We all know that.

What is not ever mentioned is that all centers, collectively, shot only .626 from the line in the playoffs during that period.

So, Wilt- shooting 10.1 FTG, only cost him teams about 2 points per game due to atrocious free throw shooting. If he was an average free throw shooter, he would have made 6.7 a game. Instead he made 4.7.

But, ask yourself, is someone going 22.5/24.5/4.2 (career) on .522 shooting (in a league that shot .438 those years) a liability late in key games? He also averaged 8 or so blocks a game and held opposing centers to about a .430 FG%, overall, in the playoffs.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#149 » by ty 4191 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:16 pm

All stats include all playoff games:

Wilt vs. HOF Centers 1960-1966 (The Scoring Years):
Russell: 32.8/28.9/2.8 on .519 shooting (101 games)
Bellamy: 40.3/23/3.9 on .521 shooting (50 games)
Embry: 41.3/2.4/4.5/ on .514 shooting (67 games)
Beaty: 35.3/21.8/2.8 on .568 shooting (43 games)
Pettit: 37.1/23/2.7 on .535 shooting (63 games)
Schayes: 40.9/25/2.6 on .479 shooting (54 games)
Lucas: 37/22/4.4 on .540 shooting (30 games)
Thurmond: 28.1/25.9/4 on .473 shooting (12 games)
Reed: 36.0/20.4/4.5 on .539 shooting (22 games)

Averages/Total: 36.5/23.8/4.5 on .521 shooting (442 games).

Note: He only played 599 games 1960-1966. So, he faced HOF Centers 74% (!!) of his total games during this entire period.

HOFers vs. WIlt (1960-1966):
Russell: 16.2/24.8/4.5 on .386 shooting
Bellamy: 27.8/16.4/3.0 on .466 shooting
Embry: 13.7/8.8/3.0 on .435 shooting
Beaty: 16.3/10/2.9 on .446 shooting
Pettit: 27.3/17.7/3.1 on .441
Schayes: 18.7/11.5/2.3 on .400 shooting
Lucas: 18.1/17.3/3.0 on .455 shooting
Thurmond: 19.3/18.6 1.1 on .401 shooting

Averages: 20.0/15.3/2.7 on .431 shooting

This is the greatest dominance of any 8 contemporary Hall of Famers of any player in history. And to play 74% of one's games against Hall of Famers is ridiculous. Consider: Shaq played 16% of his career games against HOF Centers.

He made them look like Rookies, collectively, to be honest.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#150 » by ceiling raiser » Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:44 am

Revisiting this thread, Wilt really is hard to evaluate.

Frankly, I agree with some of the arguments Doctor MJ has made about his offense. The possibility that defenses figured him out in 68, and that he couldn't fit with VBK who had led maybe the best defense in NBA history to that point prior to Wilt's arrival, is a big question mark.

I think Wilt is an all-time defender in that he would be arguably the most impactful defender in the league since its inception every single year. Until the last few, that is. Since I weight (and perhaps overweight) ability to translate to the present NBA, this hurts Wilt significantly. From a more holistic POV, he is a top 10 defender ever, and potentially top 5 (I think Russell/Robinson/Hakeem/Wallace were better since all were in Wilt's class in vertical defense, and at the absolute top tier in horizontal defense—one or more tiers above Wilt in that regard).
Now that's the difference between first and last place.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#151 » by Boss Bird » Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:14 pm

Wilt physical skills would make him great in any era. What gets lost in translation is that people are simply time-machining him to the modern era without allowing Wilt to adapt.

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