Do we underrate Wilt nowadays?

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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#121 » by ty 4191 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:29 pm

70sFan wrote:I don't think the bolded is true - Garnett had worse help in 2005-07, Kareem arguably had worse support in 1976-77, Ewing in 1993-95 isn't great either and that's only among bigs.


Even if that is true- and I seriously doubt their teammates were worse or equivalent in Relative True Shooting Percentage than a .391 FG% Warriors Team...

Maybe you can run the numbers?

That's still only 2 years. Wilt played 429 games across 5.5 years on the Warriors.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#122 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:34 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:I don't think the bolded is true - Garnett had worse help in 2005-07, Kareem arguably had worse support in 1976-77, Ewing in 1993-95 isn't great either and that's only among bigs.


Even if that is true- and I seriously doubt their teammates were worse or equivalent in Relative True Shooting Percentage than a .391 FG% Warriors Team...

Maybe you can run the numbers?

That's still only 2 years. Wilt played 429 games across 5.5 years on the Warriors.

You should take into account the difference in efficiency across the eras. 39.1% in 1960 wasn't really that bad, though it was below average. I also don't agree that Wilt played with horrible teammates for 5.5 years - 1960 Warriors team was decent, though they lacked depth. Same applies to 1962 Warriors. 1963-65 were far worse than 1960-62 and I wouldn't put them in the same tier.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#123 » by ty 4191 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:53 pm

70sFan wrote:You should take into account the difference in efficiency across the eras. 39.1% in 1960 wasn't really that bad, though it was below average. I also don't agree that Wilt played with horrible teammates for 5.5 years - 1960 Warriors team was decent, though they lacked depth. Same applies to 1962 Warriors. 1963-65 were far worse than 1960-62 and I wouldn't put them in the same tier.


.391 in a league where the other 7 (or 8) teams shoot about .435, over a 5.5 year span- is pretty atrocious. Wilt had to totally carry those teams offensively, and was counted on to do so by his (mostly, lousy) coaches for 80-82 games a year, 47+ minutes a game.

But again, I think we need relative true shooting numbers. Give me the parameters and I'll run them for Wilt and Shaq. :)
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#124 » by 70sFan » Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:56 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:You should take into account the difference in efficiency across the eras. 39.1% in 1960 wasn't really that bad, though it was below average. I also don't agree that Wilt played with horrible teammates for 5.5 years - 1960 Warriors team was decent, though they lacked depth. Same applies to 1962 Warriors. 1963-65 were far worse than 1960-62 and I wouldn't put them in the same tier.


.391 in a league where the other 7 (or 8) teams shoot about .435, over a 5.5 year span- is pretty atrocious. Wilt had to totally carry those teams offensively, and was counted on to do so by his (mostly, lousy) coaches for 80-82 games a year, 47+ minutes a game.

But again, I think we need relative true shooting numbers. Give me the parameters and I'll run them for Wilt and Shaq. :)

rTS% is just a TS% minus league average TS%. The simple formula for TS% looks this way:

Points/(2*(FGA+0.44*FTA))
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#125 » by DCasey91 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 9:59 pm

Jordan, Kareem, LBJ, Wilt can all raffle it to me as the 4. Russell/Duncan just under that.

Those 4 have what I believe to have 5 or more seasons as the downright pinnacle of basketball peak.

Russell is off the pace because his scoring patterns did fluctuate and did take a backseat because it was like the 08 Celtics equivalent except you get another 20ppg scorer.

I can’t to the best of my ability argue for Bill because it’s literally unprecedented to be off the mark by a bit offensively when it comes to the other 4. Age 31 when he has his highest scoring playoff series I have a sneaky suspicion the delegation of roles was much more precise and better than anyone else in that era including their game plan.

Top 3 pg, top 3 or so two off ball shooters back to back, got Hondo in the middle, deepest team for the majority of the 12 year reign. You can rightfully say Wilt had a better or comparable team for some years, but big no to all 12.

Anyway championships aren’t the be end and end all. It’s too deterministic

Context and outside influences which an individual has zero control over do play a factor.

Also what probably is the most underrated part about Wilt other than his unfathomable stamina is his reinventing himself post injury. Dude was an all time scorer, led the league in assists, FG%/PER, raw stats, DPOY impact any which way.

ATG Offensive hub, carry the load, whatever. Utilization/versatility of Wilt is magnificent

When up against ATG big man repeatedly much more than anyone else and performed great.

He basically did it all throughout his career. Didn’t Russell even say Wilt was doing his job better then he did when he was out of prime?

Didn’t Wilt lead the league in DWS from 67-73?

After playing 12 games one year the next three he played all 82 far out.

Last year playing at Age 36 Wilt up 13.1/18.6/4.5 on 72.7% FG in the regular season and led the league in rebounds!

God knows how many blocks too. I had to recheck it a couple of times to be sure of that FG mark. That’d be Russell’s most efficient offensive season ever.

Dude had 50+ recorded triple doubles in the space of 2 seasons.

Wilt if everything was recorded would have many more records today which is obscene but it’s true.

Forget the Big O or Westbrook. Wilt would have the most triple doubles and quadruple doubles and there wouldn’t be any point in anyone trying to beat that mark.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#126 » by ty 4191 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:58 pm

70sFan wrote:rTS% is just a TS% minus league average TS%. The simple formula for TS% looks this way:

Points/(2*(FGA+0.44*FTA))


Getting lost in the weeds here; I'm not even sure what we're debating here. Please help me out....

Are you saying Wilt didn't have terrible overall offensive support on the Warriors?

Are you saying Shaq was better than Wilt, offensively? (I think you said it, above). Peak, and/or career?

Why do you think so, (if so)?

What numbers would you like to see?
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#127 » by coastalmarker99 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:59 pm

DCasey91 wrote:Jordan, Kareem, LBJ, Wilt can all raffle it to me as the 4. Russell/Duncan just under that.

Those 4 have what I believe to have 5 or more seasons as the downright pinnacle of basketball peak.

Russell is off the pace because his scoring patterns did fluctuate and did take a backseat because it was like the 08 Celtics equivalent except you get another 20ppg scorer.

I can’t to the best of my ability argue for Bill because it’s literally unprecedented to be off the mark by a bit offensively when it comes to the other 4. Age 31 when he has his highest scoring playoff series I have a sneaky suspicion the delegation of roles was much more precise and better than anyone else in that era including their game plan.

Top 3 pg, top 3 or so two off ball shooters back to back, got Hondo in the middle, deepest team for the majority of the 12 year reign. You can rightfully say Wilt had a better or comparable team for some years, but big no to all 12.

Anyway championships aren’t the be end and end all. It’s too deterministic

Context and outside influences which an individual has zero control over do play a factor.

Also what probably is the most underrated part about Wilt other than his unfathomable stamina is his reinventing himself post injury. Dude was an all time scorer, led the league in assists, FG%/PER, raw stats, DPOY impact any which way.

ATG Offensive hub, carry the load, whatever. Utilization/versatility of Wilt is magnificent

When up against ATG big man repeatedly much more than anyone else and performed great.

He basically did it all throughout his career. Didn’t Russell even say Wilt was doing his job better then he did when he was out of prime?

Didn’t Wilt lead the league in DWS from 67-73?

After playing 12 games one year the next three he played all 82 far out.

Last year playing at Age 36 Wilt up 13.1/18.6/4.5 on 72.7% FG in the regular season and led the league in rebounds!

God knows how many blocks too. I had to recheck it a couple of times to be sure of that FG mark. That’d be Russell’s most efficient offensive season ever.

Dude had 50+ recorded triple doubles in the space of 2 seasons.

Wilt if everything was recorded would have many more records today which is obscene but it’s true.

Forget the Big O or Westbrook. Wilt would have the most triple doubles and quadruple doubles and there wouldn’t be any point in anyone trying to beat that mark.



Wilt in his last season at age 36 with bad knees averaged 13.1 PPG/18.6 RPG/4.5 APG/5.56 BPG on 72.7% FG in the regular season.

And then in the playoffs, he averaged 10.4 PTS 22.5 REBS 3.5 ASTS 6.9 BLKS on a FG% of 55.2.


And yes Russell himself admitted at the time in which he and Wilt hated each other that a 35 and 36 year old Wilt with bad knees was doing his job better than ever he did.


Wilt is playing better then I used to –passing off, coming out to set up screens, picking up guys outside, and sacrificing himself for team play.’’ –Bill Russell, great moments in pro basketball, (by Sam Goldaper)p.24
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#128 » by ty 4191 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:03 pm

DCasey91 wrote:Jordan, Kareem, LBJ, Wilt can all raffle it to me as the 4. Russell/Duncan just under that.

Those 4 have what I believe to have 5 or more seasons as the downright pinnacle of basketball peak.

Russell is off the pace because his scoring patterns did fluctuate and did take a backseat because it was like the 08 Celtics equivalent except you get another 20ppg scorer.

I can’t to the best of my ability argue for Bill because it’s literally unprecedented to be off the mark by a bit offensively when it comes to the other 4. Age 31 when he has his highest scoring playoff series I have a sneaky suspicion the delegation of roles was much more precise and better than anyone else in that era including their game plan.

Top 3 pg, top 3 or so two off ball shooters back to back, got Hondo in the middle, deepest team for the majority of the 12 year reign. You can rightfully say Wilt had a better or comparable team for some years, but big no to all 12.

Anyway championships aren’t the be end and end all. It’s too deterministic

Context and outside influences which an individual has zero control over do play a factor.

Also what probably is the most underrated part about Wilt other than his unfathomable stamina is his reinventing himself post injury. Dude was an all time scorer, led the league in assists, FG%/PER, raw stats, DPOY impact any which way.

ATG Offensive hub, carry the load, whatever. Utilization/versatility of Wilt is magnificent

When up against ATG big man repeatedly much more than anyone else and performed great.

He basically did it all throughout his career. Didn’t Russell even say Wilt was doing his job better then he did when he was out of prime?

Didn’t Wilt lead the league in DWS from 67-73?

After playing 12 games one year the next three he played all 82 far out.

Last year playing at Age 36 Wilt up 13.1/18.6/4.5 on 72.7% FG in the regular season and led the league in rebounds!

God knows how many blocks too. I had to recheck it a couple of times to be sure of that FG mark. That’d be Russell’s most efficient offensive season ever.

Dude had 50+ recorded triple doubles in the space of 2 seasons.

Wilt if everything was recorded would have many more records today which is obscene but it’s true.

Forget the Big O or Westbrook. Wilt would have the most triple doubles and quadruple doubles and there wouldn’t be any point in anyone trying to beat that mark.


Outstanding post. It feels so strange, on this Board, with all the Wilt hate and (quite unfair) detraction and apathy, to- finally- read something like this, which is reverential. And, totally deserved/appropriate.

Well done, Sir. :)

To see him ranked 4th-6th, every single year, always behind Kareem and Russell is baffling, to me.

See, here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HWQLTqFcJdJJNvMFDAwikJXujuh75uajUPrE0eF2XXc/edit#gid=0
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#129 » by coastalmarker99 » Sat Oct 30, 2021 11:25 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
DCasey91 wrote:Jordan, Kareem, LBJ, Wilt can all raffle it to me as the 4. Russell/Duncan just under that.

Those 4 have what I believe to have 5 or more seasons as the downright pinnacle of basketball peak.

Russell is off the pace because his scoring patterns did fluctuate and did take a backseat because it was like the 08 Celtics equivalent except you get another 20ppg scorer.

I can’t to the best of my ability argue for Bill because it’s literally unprecedented to be off the mark by a bit offensively when it comes to the other 4. Age 31 when he has his highest scoring playoff series I have a sneaky suspicion the delegation of roles was much more precise and better than anyone else in that era including their game plan.

Top 3 pg, top 3 or so two off ball shooters back to back, got Hondo in the middle, deepest team for the majority of the 12 year reign. You can rightfully say Wilt had a better or comparable team for some years, but big no to all 12.

Anyway championships aren’t the be end and end all. It’s too deterministic

Context and outside influences which an individual has zero control over do play a factor.

Also what probably is the most underrated part about Wilt other than his unfathomable stamina is his reinventing himself post injury. Dude was an all time scorer, led the league in assists, FG%/PER, raw stats, DPOY impact any which way.

ATG Offensive hub, carry the load, whatever. Utilization/versatility of Wilt is magnificent

When up against ATG big man repeatedly much more than anyone else and performed great.

He basically did it all throughout his career. Didn’t Russell even say Wilt was doing his job better then he did when he was out of prime?

Didn’t Wilt lead the league in DWS from 67-73?

After playing 12 games one year the next three he played all 82 far out.

Last year playing at Age 36 Wilt up 13.1/18.6/4.5 on 72.7% FG in the regular season and led the league in rebounds!

God knows how many blocks too. I had to recheck it a couple of times to be sure of that FG mark. That’d be Russell’s most efficient offensive season ever.

Dude had 50+ recorded triple doubles in the space of 2 seasons.

Wilt if everything was recorded would have many more records today which is obscene but it’s true.

Forget the Big O or Westbrook. Wilt would have the most triple doubles and quadruple doubles and there wouldn’t be any point in anyone trying to beat that mark.


Outstanding post. It feels so strange, on this Board, with all the Wilt hate and (quite unfair) detraction and apathy, to- finally- read something like this, which is reverential. And, totally deserved/appropriate.

Well done, Sir. :)

To see him ranked 4th-6th, every single year, always behind Kareem and Russell is baffling, to me.

See, here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HWQLTqFcJdJJNvMFDAwikJXujuh75uajUPrE0eF2XXc/edit#gid=0



Most people put Jabbar ahead of Wilt in their GOAT lists.

Because one he has six rings to Wilt's two and six MVPs to Wilt's four

And secondly, it's because he also beats him in the longevity department.
Reggie Jackson is amazing and a killer in the clutch that's all.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#130 » by KobesScarf » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:27 am

Legitimate Criticisms
• Limited post effectiveness


He only lead the NBA in FG% 9x, including seasons where he shot the ball 30x a game. LMAO how could this be a legitimate criticism?
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#131 » by 70sFan » Sun Oct 31, 2021 8:13 am

ty 4191 wrote:Are you saying Wilt didn't have terrible overall offensive support on the Warriors?

Not always - I wouldn't call 1960-62 supporting cast terrible. They had a poor bench and weak spot at PF, but he did have Paul Arizin and Tom Gola. Guy Rodgers wasn't great, but with talented teammates he had his value as well. It wasn't a great, or even good offensive roster but it wasn't terrible.

1963-65 Warriors were certainly terrible offensively outside of Wilt - ATG bad in fact.

Are you saying Shaq was better than Wilt, offensively? (I think you said it, above). Peak, and/or career?

It's a hard comparison due to low amount of footage available, but for now I'd say yes. I think that Shaq had more consistent career on offensive end than Wilt, who struggled with his identity at the beginning and then changed his game to very reduced role after 1970.


Why do you think so, (if so)?

Shaq's more agressive approach on offensive end. He wanted to pressure defense all the time and that forced opponents to adjust their defensive gameplan. I'm not talking about backing opponents down - that wasn't legal in Wilt's time. It's more about Shaq's constant movement without the ball and his work to establish deep position. Wilt did these things as well, but he seemed to be less consistent with that.

Shaq also was slightly better scorer in the playoffs, even though Wilt's resiliency is underrated.

That said, I don't think it's crystal clear because Shaq usually played with far better supporting casts on offense than Wilt.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#132 » by ty 4191 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:53 pm

70sFan wrote:That said, I don't think it's crystal clear because Shaq usually played with far better supporting casts on offense than Wilt.


No kidding!!

So, in that light....I ran another study. "Teammates' True Shooting Added.". Since TS Added is already adjusted for Era/Offensive Context, I though it might be instructive/useful to look at the quality of teammates, offensively, for Kareem, Russell, and Wilt.

Here are the results. I committed the offensive contributions of all three, for every season, from the team offensive output. Summed up teammates' TS Added. 0 would be league average offensive teammates, negative, poor offensive teammates, etc.

Code: Select all

KAJ Teammates' TS Added
1970   182
1971   405
1972   154
1973   271
1974   153
1975   -85
1976   -126
1977   -276
1978   -3.1
1979   197
1980   289
1981   -46
1982   -1
1983   256
1984   337
1985   513
1986   380
1987   520
1988   395
1989   587

Sum   +4102


Code: Select all

   Wilt Teammates' TS Added
1960   -404
1961   -407
1962   -295
1963   -435
1964   -419
1965   -377
1966   -221
1967   226
1968   -14
1969   145
1970   13
1971   182
1972   385
1973   77

Sum   -1544


Code: Select all

Russell Teammates TS Added
1957   -31.8
1958   -116
1959   -163
1960   -102
1961   -383
1962   -207
1963   -268
1964   -465
1965   -296
1966   -222
1967   150
1968   -39
1969   -168

Sum   -2310


I haven't run Shaq yet, but I will.

But, again, 70s Fan, I doubt he had teams as atrocious offensively, around him, as Wilt did, overall, and, mainly, on the Warriors.

Russell didn't need offensive support, since he was, probably? the best defensive big man ever, and had the best teammates of any player, ever, around him. Especially, defensively. Along with the greatest coach and GM ever, behind him, supporting him and his style of play 100%, for his entire career.

Thoughts on Kareem's offensive support vs. Wilt's?

To me? It's night and day, brother.

Just like Wilt's % of playoff games against opposing defenses ("Elite" or "All Time Great" Defenses), as you so eruditely studied and articulated, on this very Forum....
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#133 » by ty 4191 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:24 pm

Here's something else nobody considers. Or, at least, has mentioned, here....

Wilt got played harder, and more brutally, than anyone.

Wilt has the most fouls against, per game, in NBA history.

Free Throws Attempted Per Game, Career, Including Playoffs:

Wilt: 11.2
Pettit: 10.3
Shaq: 9.5
West: 9.5
Mikan: 9.1
Embiid: 9.1
Malone: 8.9
Iverson: 8.9

AND YET, he has the fewest fouls COMMITTED, also, all time, among all Centers with 800 games played. Somehow. Impossible, but true..

Fouls x MP, Career, NBA History, All Centers, 800 Games Played:

Wilt: 1.6
Russell: 2.3
Malone: 2.5
Thurmond: 2.6
Unseld: 2.8
Kareem: 2.9
Robinson: 3.0
Bellamy: 3.3
Lanier: 3.4
Parish: 3.5
Ewing: 3.6
Shaq: 3.6
Hakeem: 3.6

Playoffs, Min 100 Games Played:
Wilt: 2.0
Russell: 2.6
Unseld: 2.7
Mutumbo: 3.0
Kareem: 3.2
Shaq: 3.4
Hakeem: 3.5
Ewing: 3.5
Robinson: 3.6
Parish: 3.6
Divac: 4.2
Sikma: 4.6

You want to talk about efficiency? There you go, again.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#134 » by 70sFan » Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:44 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
70sFan wrote:That said, I don't think it's crystal clear because Shaq usually played with far better supporting casts on offense than Wilt.


No kidding!!

So, in that light....I ran another study. "Teammates' True Shooting Added.". Since TS Added is already adjusted for Era/Offensive Context, I though it might be instructive/useful to look at the quality of teammates, offensively, for Kareem, Russell, and Wilt.

Here are the results. I committed the offensive contributions of all three, for every season, from the team offensive output. Summed up teammates' TS Added. 0 would be league average offensive teammates, negative, poor offensive teammates, etc.

Code: Select all

KAJ Teammates' TS Added
1970   182
1971   405
1972   154
1973   271
1974   153
1975   -85
1976   -126
1977   -276
1978   -3.1
1979   197
1980   289
1981   -46
1982   -1
1983   256
1984   337
1985   513
1986   380
1987   520
1988   395
1989   587

Sum   +4102


Code: Select all

   Wilt Teammates' TS Added
1960   -404
1961   -407
1962   -295
1963   -435
1964   -419
1965   -377
1966   -221
1967   226
1968   -14
1969   145
1970   13
1971   182
1972   385
1973   77

Sum   -1544


Code: Select all

Russell Teammates TS Added
1957   -31.8
1958   -116
1959   -163
1960   -102
1961   -383
1962   -207
1963   -268
1964   -465
1965   -296
1966   -222
1967   150
1968   -39
1969   -168

Sum   -2310


I haven't run Shaq yet, but I will.

But, again, 70s Fan, I doubt he had teams as atrocious offensively, around him, as Wilt did, overall, and, mainly, on the Warriors.

Russell didn't need offensive support, since he was, probably? the best defensive big man ever, and had the best teammates of any player, ever, around him. Especially, defensively. Along with the greatest coach and GM ever, behind him, supporting him and his style of play 100%, for his entire career.

Thoughts on Kareem's offensive support vs. Wilt's?

To me? It's night and day, brother.

Just like Wilt's % of playoff games against opposing defenses ("Elite" or "All Time Great" Defenses), as you so eruditely studied and articulated, on this very Forum....

Thak you for this calculation, it gives us a nice estimate of teammates scoring efficiency across careers. You did outstanding job! :)

It does look like Wilt's teammates in 1960 and 1961 were worse than I thought, but 1962 looks better. It's also clear that Wilt played with much better supporting cast in the second part of his career.

Thoughts on Kareem - as you can see, majority of his prime was with weak teams as well (though better than Wilt's on average). The massive overall sum is heavily influenced by 1983-89 period which doesn't matter when we evaluate Kareem's prime.

Russell's numbers should be the most shocking to most people - how can anybody call his supporting cast the best ever when his teammates were less efficient than any other top 5 player by a massive amount? You can see that most of Russell teams were simply horrible on offensive end.

Again, great job! Please, make the calculation for Shaq and Hakeem when you have a time. I expect Shaq to finish by far the highest among them.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#135 » by ty 4191 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 6:15 pm

70sFan wrote:Thak you for this calculation, it gives us a nice estimate of teammates scoring efficiency across careers. You did outstanding job! :)

It does look like Wilt's teammates in 1960 and 1961 were worse than I thought, but 1962 looks better. It's also clear that Wilt played with much better supporting cast in the second part of his career.

Thoughts on Kareem - as you can see, majority of his prime was with weak teams as well (though better than Wilt's on average). The massive overall sum is heavily influenced by 1983-89 period which doesn't matter when we evaluate Kareem's prime.

Russell's numbers should be the most shocking to most people - how can anybody call his supporting cast the best ever when his teammates were less efficient than any other top 5 player by a massive amount? You can see that most of Russell teams were simply horrible on offensive end.

Again, great job! Please, make the calculation for Shaq and Hakeem when you have a time. I expect Shaq to finish by far the highest among them.


Thanks so much for the kudos, brother! So very much appreciated! :D

I totally agree on Kareem/Wilt.

Here's Shaq, 1993-2009 (all the full seasons):

Code: Select all

Shaq Teammates TS Added
1993   126
1994   7.9
1995   247
1996   238
1997   -62
1998   356
1999   89
2000   -194
2001   55
2002   -7.3
2003   -116
2004   -62
2005   282
2006   193
2007   -44
2009   438

Sum   1546
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#136 » by ty 4191 » Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:28 pm

Hakeem Olajuwon:

Code: Select all

Hakeem Teammates TS Added
1985   108
1986   -129
1987   -214
1988   -208
1989   81
1990   -99
1991   -102
1992   36
1993   159
1994   122
1995   303
1996   149
1997   291
1998   291
1999   211
2000   238
2001   285

Sum   1522
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#137 » by 70sFan » Sun Oct 31, 2021 9:37 pm

ty 4191 wrote:...


Thank you! I'll try to play with these numbers later.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#138 » by Mazter » Mon Nov 1, 2021 2:18 am

ty 4191 wrote:

Code: Select all

   Wilt Teammates' TS Added
1960   -404   76.3
1961   -407   73.9
1962   -295   94.0
1963   -435   81.4
1964   -419   68.6
1965   -377   67.6     
1966   -221   61.3
1967    226   37.9
1968    -14   43.6
1969    145   36.5
1970     13   49.3
1971    182   37.2
1972    385   24.2
1973     77   19.0

Sum   -1544



If you add the TSattempts to Wilt you will see an explosion in TSadd when he had a significant decrease in his TSattempts under Hannum in 66/67. It should be a indicator that his offense wasn't really maximizing the potential of his teammates or team offense.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#139 » by ty 4191 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:09 pm

Yes, I believe we underrate Wilt here, putting him 6th when we've recently run the Top 100 Project:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HWQLTqFcJdJJNvMFDAwikJXujuh75uajUPrE0eF2XXc/edit#gid=0

As much as I adore Tim Duncan- he's one of my top few favorite players, ever....to put him over Wilt all time is fairly insane. Consider Wilt played a almost 10 years with coaches that 1) had little to no experience 2) were lousy and 3) totally misused and misunderstood Wilt.

--Neil Johnston: Coached only 2 years in the NBA, was fired after 1961.

--Frank McGuire: Coached 1 year in the NBA, resigned (rather than be fired) after 1962.

--Bill Feerick: 2 years NBA experience, total, when he took over. Was fired after 1 year.

--Van Breda Kolff: 1 year experience when he got Wilt, was fired for how he failed to utilize him & the Finals Game 7 debacle where he kept Wilt out despite Wilt pleading to come back in.

--Frank Mullaney. 0 years experience when he took over WIlt's Lakers in 1970. Fired after 2 years.

Consider that, just like Bill Russell, Tim Duncan had ONE coach his ENTIRE career, arguably the greatest ever, and Popovich treated him like a son (just like Auerbach treated Russell like a son).

Popovich also had 7 years experience before taking over as head coach when Duncan joined the team. Auerbach had 11 years of NBA coaching/executive experience when Russell joined the team in 57'.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#140 » by countryboy667 » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:53 pm

Yes, we do. The ironic thing is that he's a victim of his own excellence and dominance. People who didn't SEE him find it hard to believe anyone could be that incredibly good. I saw him play in person several times, and he trashed some great competition (including Russell, in most instances) in a smaller league where top bigs faced each other more frequently than today--just as in his prime today he would trash guys like Jokic, Gobert, Embiid, Turner, or any other big you care to name. I've seen some great athletes in my 76 years--and he was easily the best of them all. Scariest thought of all is that because he was such a transcendent, surreally good all-around athlete, he might well have been just as dominant in ANY sport he had happened to compete in.

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