Do we underrate Wilt nowadays?

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Re: Do we underrated Wilt nowadays? 

Post#61 » by Colbinii » Sun Aug 1, 2021 12:17 am

PistolPeteJR wrote:
Spoiler:
fpliii wrote:
Jaivl wrote:I have him as a top 10 lock. A large chunk of the negative criticism towards Wilt seems legitimate, but probably not that impactful overall.

Who else is in your top 10 right now? I'm not sure if I can put him clearly over:

Jordan, Russell
LeBron, Kareem
Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Garnett, Curry

but he probably is a peer of that second group. That would make him top 11.

Colbinii wrote:I think he is a top-10 lock.

I dont see strong (or any) arguments for players like Bird, Kobe, Hakeem, Dirk, Oscar, Robinson, Curry, Durant, Moses or Pettit ahead of him.

Even if you think Wilt would be a "less mobile, more durable" David Robinson, that doesn't take away anything he accomplished as a player.

I think the reason you hear negative things about Wilt is because he is often times mythologized and people need to talk him back to reality.

Well it's interesting. When I joined this board, I was someone who championed Wilt, and was pushing for him as high as 3rd in the first Top 100 project to which I contributed (I believe in 2014). I wasn't so enamored with the box score figures, but I figured his warts could be smoothed out. I quickly became one of his bigger detractors.

I do think that Hakeem (peak, scoring resiliency and defensive ability) and Curry (peak, portability) have legitimate arguments over him, though.


I would really love to hear the case for Curry in the top-10 already, let alone ahead of Wilt of all people. Granted, I never watched Wilt live, but the consensus by players, fans, etc., young and old is that Wilt is top-10 at the very least, and I deduce this because of a ton of cited proof as well as the fact that I’ve never heard anyone mention Curry in the top-10 already, let alone put out any form of analysis arguing so.


For starters, you don’t think Wilt has five let alone more than five MVP-level seasons?
Curry gets best shooter and off-ball threat, fine.

Wilt played 15 seasons with averages of 30.1ppg on 54.7 TS% (the second half of his career he improved his efficiency as a scorer), 19.4rpg and 15.8apg, with tremendous defense as well. Blocks and steals weren’t even recorded for him, and it’s pretty clear that they’d be significant; at the very least, blocks.

I really don’t get it.


For starters, this isn't an apples to apples comparison. The argument(s) for Curry over Wilt are based on a couple of Pillars.

1) Greatest Off-Ball Player and Shooter ever

Curry is the greatest shooter ever, and frankly, it isn't remotely close. The greatest passer may be Magic but guys like Nash and even Bird could have arguments. The greatest scorer ever in most people's mind is Jordan but Durant, LeBron and Dirk [Even Curry] are right there with him. Name another category, someone or a handful of players are in contention for The Greatest X in Basketball History. Nobody is in the discussion against Curry in regards to what makes him great, and it is the fact that Curry is multiple standard deviations away from the next player in this regard that makes Curry unique and special in a way no other player in NBA History.

2) Offensive Gravity

What makes players like Curry and Dirk [I keep bringing up Dirk with this because it's a recent topic of study of mine] have, in my opinion, the greatest Offensive Gravity ever is the places on the court they operate and how they operate offensively. Neither is being forced to operate within 8-10 feet from the basket like Giannis and Shaq's Gravity. Neither of them {Curry and Dirk] need the ball in their hands all the time like Magic or LeBron [Though Dirk needs it more than Curry], which again, isn't a slight on LeBron or Magic, but it allows Curry to maintain his impact every single offensive possession. Curry's gravity is 100% resilient and there is not a single possible way to take it away or hedge against it. His Gravity would be the same whether he is with DeMar DeRozan or Ben Simmons or LeBron James or Insert your favorite player here. Even someone like Kyle Korver, primarily used with off-ball down-screens and pin-downs, playing next to Curry would result in Curry's impact shinning full force[As evident by Klay Thompson next to Curry].

To get into "All-NBA/MVP Seasons" and "Counting Stats"...well that's the problem with relying solely on statistics for GOAT ranking. If your argument is "Wilt has more MVP level seasons" than Curry then we don't need to watch games or films or really care at all what these players provide for a statistical profile or entertainment purposes. At this point, if this is your only analysis, then who is to say you or anyone else making a GOAT list know anything at all about basketball? What is stopping a childhood friend of mine who became a Bucks fan 2 weeks ago from making a GOAT list based on All-NBA seasons, MVP finishes and looking at Career per-game averages? These tools aren't necessarily bad or inferior, but someone with 20 years of basketball analysis and someone with 2 weeks of basketball analysis could come away with the same exact GOAT ranking list using these criteria, and while that isn't in any way incorrect or an inferior way of ranking players, it leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't exactly utilize everything we, as fans of a great sport, could be utilizing to form a ranking or perform a player analysis and comparison.

It makes sense you don't see the argument for Curry over Wilt because what you apparently value (Counting Statistics, Awards) don't favor Curry over Wilt. If that's your criteria, and there is nothing wrong with having that criteria [as stated above], then it isn't possible to have Curry over Wilt in any reality.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#62 » by LA Bird » Sun Aug 1, 2021 1:19 am

On this board specifically, I think Wilt can be a little underrated at times. There is heavy pushback against his offense because casual fans overrate him with '50ppg = GOAT scorer' but people here sometimes go too far the other way by holding him to a higher standard than they would to other players. The fact that 67 Wilt was the clear anchor on a GOAT level offense should be seen as a feather in his cap but it is often regarded as a negative instead, as some proof that his high volume scoring in previous years was merely meaningless stat padding. By this same logic, the Spurs offense being at their best in 2011/12 when Duncan was past prime should be an indictment of his scoring value but you will rarely see this being used against Duncan in a similar manner as it is to Wilt when his offensive value is being discussed. Wilt's declines on offense in the postseason are well known but it doesn't account for the fact that he was frequently going up against the GOAT defender or that his defense improved so much in the playoffs that it more than offset his drop in offense. Wilt's defense in general is overshadowed by Russell and he has a case against just about anyone else in the history of the game. For example, Wilt has a stronger track record of anchoring elite defensive teams than Hakeem who is widely regarded here as a top 3 defensive GOAT. Wilt's main weakness is probably his season to season consistency but I don't think his down years are actually all that bad compared to the down years by other GOAT candidates. It just looks worse in comparison because he peaked so high across so many different areas of the game in such distinct stages of his career that it becomes easier to pick out individual things that are relatively underwhelming in any one season. Overall, even if we completely ignore Wilt's box score stats, his impact metrics is comparable with any of the GOAT bigs and he is not lacking in team success at all. I don't see a case for Wilt out of the top 10 and he has actually been moving up in the current version of my GOAT list.
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Re: Do we underrated Wilt nowadays? 

Post#63 » by PistolPeteJR » Sun Aug 1, 2021 1:52 am

fpliii wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
fpliii wrote:For starters, you don’t think Wilt has five let alone more than five MVP-level seasons?
Curry gets best shooter and off-ball threat, fine.

Wilt played 15 seasons with averages of 30.1ppg on 54.7 TS% (the second half of his career he improved his efficiency as a scorer), 19.4rpg and 15.8apg, with tremendous defense as well. Blocks and steals weren’t even recorded for him, and it’s pretty clear that they’d be significant; at the very least, blocks.

I really don’t get it.

(1) I am somebody who believes strongly in the 60s NBA (Russell is my co-GOAT with Jordan), but I think box score stats are severely inflated and I'm not somebody who values the box in general
(2) I have real concerns about how Wilt would translate into the modern NBA. In a vacuum, I don't know if he is better than David Robinson (who I am high on) if you put him in the modern game
(3) He has several seasons I am very high on (64, 66, 67, 68 are MVP-level seasons to me, possibly 65; I think 72, 73 are clear All-NBA level seasons) but his first three years are hard to evaluate, as are 69 and 71


Inflation, sure, but not ridiculously so.
Even if you have Wilt equal to Robinson, that’s still higher than Curry on most lists.
Hard to evaluate, sure, but that doesn’t take away the fact that they were MVP or near MVP-level.
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Re: Do we underrated Wilt nowadays? 

Post#64 » by PistolPeteJR » Sun Aug 1, 2021 1:53 am

Colbinii wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
Spoiler:
fpliii wrote:Who else is in your top 10 right now? I'm not sure if I can put him clearly over:

Jordan, Russell
LeBron, Kareem
Magic, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan, Garnett, Curry

but he probably is a peer of that second group. That would make him top 11.


Well it's interesting. When I joined this board, I was someone who championed Wilt, and was pushing for him as high as 3rd in the first Top 100 project to which I contributed (I believe in 2014). I wasn't so enamored with the box score figures, but I figured his warts could be smoothed out. I quickly became one of his bigger detractors.

I do think that Hakeem (peak, scoring resiliency and defensive ability) and Curry (peak, portability) have legitimate arguments over him, though.


I would really love to hear the case for Curry in the top-10 already, let alone ahead of Wilt of all people. Granted, I never watched Wilt live, but the consensus by players, fans, etc., young and old is that Wilt is top-10 at the very least, and I deduce this because of a ton of cited proof as well as the fact that I’ve never heard anyone mention Curry in the top-10 already, let alone put out any form of analysis arguing so.


For starters, you don’t think Wilt has five let alone more than five MVP-level seasons?
Curry gets best shooter and off-ball threat, fine.

Wilt played 15 seasons with averages of 30.1ppg on 54.7 TS% (the second half of his career he improved his efficiency as a scorer), 19.4rpg and 15.8apg, with tremendous defense as well. Blocks and steals weren’t even recorded for him, and it’s pretty clear that they’d be significant; at the very least, blocks.

I really don’t get it.


For starters, this isn't an apples to apples comparison. The argument(s) for Curry over Wilt are based on a couple of Pillars.

1) Greatest Off-Ball Player and Shooter ever

Curry is the greatest shooter ever, and frankly, it isn't remotely close. The greatest passer may be Magic but guys like Nash and even Bird could have arguments. The greatest scorer ever in most people's mind is Jordan but Durant, LeBron and Dirk [Even Curry] are right there with him. Name another category, someone or a handful of players are in contention for The Greatest X in Basketball History. Nobody is in the discussion against Curry in regards to what makes him great, and it is the fact that Curry is multiple standard deviations away from the next player in this regard that makes Curry unique and special in a way no other player in NBA History.

2) Offensive Gravity

What makes players like Curry and Dirk [I keep bringing up Dirk with this because it's a recent topic of study of mine] have, in my opinion, the greatest Offensive Gravity ever is the places on the court they operate and how they operate offensively. Neither is being forced to operate within 8-10 feet from the basket like Giannis and Shaq's Gravity. Neither of them {Curry and Dirk] need the ball in their hands all the time like Magic or LeBron [Though Dirk needs it more than Curry], which again, isn't a slight on LeBron or Magic, but it allows Curry to maintain his impact every single offensive possession. Curry's gravity is 100% resilient and there is not a single possible way to take it away or hedge against it. His Gravity would be the same whether he is with DeMar DeRozan or Ben Simmons or LeBron James or Insert your favorite player here. Even someone like Kyle Korver, primarily used with off-ball down-screens and pin-downs, playing next to Curry would result in Curry's impact shinning full force[As evident by Klay Thompson next to Curry].

To get into "All-NBA/MVP Seasons" and "Counting Stats"...well that's the problem with relying solely on statistics for GOAT ranking. If your argument is "Wilt has more MVP level seasons" than Curry then we don't need to watch games or films or really care at all what these players provide for a statistical profile or entertainment purposes. At this point, if this is your only analysis, then who is to say you or anyone else making a GOAT list know anything at all about basketball? What is stopping a childhood friend of mine who became a Bucks fan 2 weeks ago from making a GOAT list based on All-NBA seasons, MVP finishes and looking at Career per-game averages? These tools aren't necessarily bad or inferior, but someone with 20 years of basketball analysis and someone with 2 weeks of basketball analysis could come away with the same exact GOAT ranking list using these criteria, and while that isn't in any way incorrect or an inferior way of ranking players, it leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't exactly utilize everything we, as fans of a great sport, could be utilizing to form a ranking or perform a player analysis and comparison.

It makes sense you don't see the argument for Curry over Wilt because what you apparently value (Counting Statistics, Awards) don't favor Curry over Wilt. If that's your criteria, and there is nothing wrong with having that criteria [as stated above], then it isn't possible to have Curry over Wilt in any reality.


1 and 2 overlap. And you do Wilt the disservice of negating his defensive impact as well as his vertical gravity. I’m not simply counting stats here.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#65 » by coastalmarker99 » Sun Aug 1, 2021 2:18 am

Anyone arguing Curry is better than Wilt all time deserves a hard slap in the face as that is incredibly disrespectful to the legendary figure that is the Big Dipper.


Wilt despite retiring 48 years ago still owns over 200 plus records to his name when you include blocks and steals.


Wilt has 4 MVP awards to Curry's two and one could easily make the argument that Wilt was robbed of winning the MVP award in 62 64 and 72.


Also, it should be noted that Wilt has 2 finals MVPs to Curry's zero.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#66 » by coastalmarker99 » Sun Aug 1, 2021 2:27 am

I have real concerns as well on how Russell would translate into the modern NBA I am not sure that he would be an MVP type player if you put him in the modern game.

He never shot over 46 percent from the field for a entire season.

He never had a season above 18 PPG

He never was top 9 in player efficiency rating

He was never top 13 in offensive win shares either

And he was doing this while playing some of the highest minutes in the league at the time.



In win shares, he was all over the place going from 2nd to 9th about every year

Even while being top 15 in APG every season he was 18th and 17th in assist % his whole career
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Re: Do we underrated Wilt nowadays? 

Post#67 » by Colbinii » Sun Aug 1, 2021 2:29 am

PistolPeteJR wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
Spoiler:


I would really love to hear the case for Curry in the top-10 already, let alone ahead of Wilt of all people. Granted, I never watched Wilt live, but the consensus by players, fans, etc., young and old is that Wilt is top-10 at the very least, and I deduce this because of a ton of cited proof as well as the fact that I’ve never heard anyone mention Curry in the top-10 already, let alone put out any form of analysis arguing so.


For starters, you don’t think Wilt has five let alone more than five MVP-level seasons?
Curry gets best shooter and off-ball threat, fine.

Wilt played 15 seasons with averages of 30.1ppg on 54.7 TS% (the second half of his career he improved his efficiency as a scorer), 19.4rpg and 15.8apg, with tremendous defense as well. Blocks and steals weren’t even recorded for him, and it’s pretty clear that they’d be significant; at the very least, blocks.

I really don’t get it.


For starters, this isn't an apples to apples comparison. The argument(s) for Curry over Wilt are based on a couple of Pillars.

1) Greatest Off-Ball Player and Shooter ever

Curry is the greatest shooter ever, and frankly, it isn't remotely close. The greatest passer may be Magic but guys like Nash and even Bird could have arguments. The greatest scorer ever in most people's mind is Jordan but Durant, LeBron and Dirk [Even Curry] are right there with him. Name another category, someone or a handful of players are in contention for The Greatest X in Basketball History. Nobody is in the discussion against Curry in regards to what makes him great, and it is the fact that Curry is multiple standard deviations away from the next player in this regard that makes Curry unique and special in a way no other player in NBA History.

2) Offensive Gravity

What makes players like Curry and Dirk [I keep bringing up Dirk with this because it's a recent topic of study of mine] have, in my opinion, the greatest Offensive Gravity ever is the places on the court they operate and how they operate offensively. Neither is being forced to operate within 8-10 feet from the basket like Giannis and Shaq's Gravity. Neither of them {Curry and Dirk] need the ball in their hands all the time like Magic or LeBron [Though Dirk needs it more than Curry], which again, isn't a slight on LeBron or Magic, but it allows Curry to maintain his impact every single offensive possession. Curry's gravity is 100% resilient and there is not a single possible way to take it away or hedge against it. His Gravity would be the same whether he is with DeMar DeRozan or Ben Simmons or LeBron James or Insert your favorite player here. Even someone like Kyle Korver, primarily used with off-ball down-screens and pin-downs, playing next to Curry would result in Curry's impact shinning full force[As evident by Klay Thompson next to Curry].

To get into "All-NBA/MVP Seasons" and "Counting Stats"...well that's the problem with relying solely on statistics for GOAT ranking. If your argument is "Wilt has more MVP level seasons" than Curry then we don't need to watch games or films or really care at all what these players provide for a statistical profile or entertainment purposes. At this point, if this is your only analysis, then who is to say you or anyone else making a GOAT list know anything at all about basketball? What is stopping a childhood friend of mine who became a Bucks fan 2 weeks ago from making a GOAT list based on All-NBA seasons, MVP finishes and looking at Career per-game averages? These tools aren't necessarily bad or inferior, but someone with 20 years of basketball analysis and someone with 2 weeks of basketball analysis could come away with the same exact GOAT ranking list using these criteria, and while that isn't in any way incorrect or an inferior way of ranking players, it leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't exactly utilize everything we, as fans of a great sport, could be utilizing to form a ranking or perform a player analysis and comparison.

It makes sense you don't see the argument for Curry over Wilt because what you apparently value (Counting Statistics, Awards) don't favor Curry over Wilt. If that's your criteria, and there is nothing wrong with having that criteria [as stated above], then it isn't possible to have Curry over Wilt in any reality.


1 and 2 overlap. And you do Wilt the disservice of negating his defensive impact as well as his vertical gravity. I’m not simply counting stats here.


1 and 2 do overlap, but that isn't a negative or bad thing? I'm not really sure what you are attempting to articulate since I am simply presenting a reason to have Curry near the top 10.

I'm not doing any disservice. I never once even made an argument for either player over the other. I'm simply answering your question as to why one may value Curry highly and higher than you do. I'm here for discussion, not flex why I have Player A ahead of Player B.

Your post quite literally only included counting statistics and awards. How am I supposed to know you thought more than what you actually posted? I'm not a mind reader.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#68 » by ceiling raiser » Sun Aug 1, 2021 2:29 am

coastalmarker99 wrote:I have real concerns as well on how Russell would translate into the modern NBA I am not sure that he would be an MVP type player if you put him in the modern game.


He never was top 9 in player efficiency rating

He was never top 13 in offensive win shares either

And he was doing this while playing some of the highest minutes in the league at the time.



In win shares, he was all over the place going from 2nd to 9th about every year

Even while being top 15 in APG every season he was 18th and 17th in assist % his whole career

PER can't be calculated before 77-78 because blocks, steals and turnovers weren't recorded (and prior to 73-74, offensive rebounds weren't recorded). If they were, Russell would be in the high 20s year-in-and-year-out, and Wilt would probably be pushing 40 in some years.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#69 » by 70sFan » Sun Aug 1, 2021 6:15 am

I think that his 1961/62 season gets underrated on this board at times. It wasn't his best season, but some posters act like it's almost a negative season for him, which is frankly ridiculous. He anchored solid offense with very little help and horrible offensive gameplan. He adjusted his game in the playoffs and almost beat the more talented Celtics team in 7 games.

I really wish we had more footage from that season. There are a lot of misconceptions about his performance and style from that era, more footage would make the picture cleaner.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#70 » by Jaivl » Sun Aug 1, 2021 6:20 am

LA Bird wrote:even if we completely ignore Wilt's box score stats, his impact metrics is comparable with any of the GOAT bigs.

Agree with the main point, but this is not true at all AFAIK.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#71 » by Dutchball97 » Sun Aug 1, 2021 6:37 am

coastalmarker99 wrote:Anyone arguing Curry is better than Wilt all time deserves a hard slap in the face as that is incredibly disrespectful to the legendary figure that is the Big Dipper.


Wilt despite retiring 48 years ago still owns over 200 plus records to his name when you include blocks and steals.


Wilt has 4 MVP awards to Curry's two and one could easily make the argument that Wilt was robbed of winning the MVP award in 62 64 and 72.


Also, it should be noted that Wilt has 2 finals MVPs to Curry's zero.


Now you just sound like you're in love with Wilt.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#72 » by Owly » Sun Aug 1, 2021 8:30 am

fpliii wrote:
coastalmarker99 wrote:I have real concerns as well on how Russell would translate into the modern NBA I am not sure that he would be an MVP type player if you put him in the modern game.


He never was top 9 in player efficiency rating

He was never top 13 in offensive win shares either

And he was doing this while playing some of the highest minutes in the league at the time.



In win shares, he was all over the place going from 2nd to 9th about every year

Even while being top 15 in APG every season he was 18th and 17th in assist % his whole career

PER can't be calculated before 77-78 because blocks, steals and turnovers weren't recorded (and prior to 73-74, offensive rebounds weren't recorded). If they were, Russell would be in the high 20s year-in-and-year-out, and Wilt would probably be pushing 40 in some years.

Well can't be properly, fully calculated, yes. And this being particularly damaging to an all time elite shot blocker is going to be undersold.

Also he was 4th in '58.

Oh and he was over his career slightly more productive in the playoffs even before adjusting for a higher opponent and average player standard.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#73 » by Owly » Sun Aug 1, 2021 8:56 am

ty 4191 wrote:
Owly wrote:Wouldn't someone from the same era who wasn't a Hall of Famer and played the same guys plus Wilt be higher (seems likely unless Wilt's timing for this was perfect, which is of course possible). Do you have the numbers for any other guys from that era? Any source or info on the process (who is counted as a C, do they have to be starting at the C position or just on the roster etc - does the player being measured have to be the starter, how many players was this calculated for)?


I'm using basketball reference (players listed as center, only. I cross referenced it with the Basketball Hall of Fame website.

I just ran all the numbers for Kareem Abdul Jabaar.

He played 314 of his 1797 games (17%) against players listed as Hall of Fame Centers. Wilt played 72% of his games (865 of 1205) against HOF Centers.

Incidentally, I also broke down how Kareem did against every HOF Center, and vice versa. Too much to type right now, but suffice it to say, they shot .527 against them. Wilt's 14 HOF opponents shot .415 against him.

Okay so I still have most of the questions from above but now ...

1) Can we take it from the fact that you only just ran Kareem that "This is, to my knowledge, the highest % in NBA history." is guesswork on which you had few (given how high on any list KAJ would be to run the numbers for, if not done systematically for all players) if any comparisons, rather than a database that could inform such knowledge?

2) Shouldn't one expect the player playing in the 50s, 60s and 70s (and notably against Russell - which I will note does damage in the other direction, though Russell more noted as a team defender) to concede a higher fg%? Ditto a player that plays their prime and retires versus one that plays further outside their prime (yes, this cuts both ways, Abdul-Jabbar was below league average in his final year, his scoring totals, for those that care about such things, are inflated)?

3) Do you believe a higher proportion of players might get HoF without necessarily being better (in league relative terms I'm pretty certain this is the case - especially if "contributor" inductions (e.g. Embry) are counted, cf previous questions regarding process - say, if being consistently all-NBA then gets you in the (1/4 of all starters) being consistently a top 1/4 starter probably doesn't in later, larger leagues)?
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Re: Do we underrated Wilt nowadays? 

Post#74 » by PistolPeteJR » Sun Aug 1, 2021 8:17 pm

Colbinii wrote:
PistolPeteJR wrote:
Colbinii wrote:


For starters, this isn't an apples to apples comparison. The argument(s) for Curry over Wilt are based on a couple of Pillars.

1) Greatest Off-Ball Player and Shooter ever

Curry is the greatest shooter ever, and frankly, it isn't remotely close. The greatest passer may be Magic but guys like Nash and even Bird could have arguments. The greatest scorer ever in most people's mind is Jordan but Durant, LeBron and Dirk [Even Curry] are right there with him. Name another category, someone or a handful of players are in contention for The Greatest X in Basketball History. Nobody is in the discussion against Curry in regards to what makes him great, and it is the fact that Curry is multiple standard deviations away from the next player in this regard that makes Curry unique and special in a way no other player in NBA History.

2) Offensive Gravity

What makes players like Curry and Dirk [I keep bringing up Dirk with this because it's a recent topic of study of mine] have, in my opinion, the greatest Offensive Gravity ever is the places on the court they operate and how they operate offensively. Neither is being forced to operate within 8-10 feet from the basket like Giannis and Shaq's Gravity. Neither of them {Curry and Dirk] need the ball in their hands all the time like Magic or LeBron [Though Dirk needs it more than Curry], which again, isn't a slight on LeBron or Magic, but it allows Curry to maintain his impact every single offensive possession. Curry's gravity is 100% resilient and there is not a single possible way to take it away or hedge against it. His Gravity would be the same whether he is with DeMar DeRozan or Ben Simmons or LeBron James or Insert your favorite player here. Even someone like Kyle Korver, primarily used with off-ball down-screens and pin-downs, playing next to Curry would result in Curry's impact shinning full force[As evident by Klay Thompson next to Curry].

To get into "All-NBA/MVP Seasons" and "Counting Stats"...well that's the problem with relying solely on statistics for GOAT ranking. If your argument is "Wilt has more MVP level seasons" than Curry then we don't need to watch games or films or really care at all what these players provide for a statistical profile or entertainment purposes. At this point, if this is your only analysis, then who is to say you or anyone else making a GOAT list know anything at all about basketball? What is stopping a childhood friend of mine who became a Bucks fan 2 weeks ago from making a GOAT list based on All-NBA seasons, MVP finishes and looking at Career per-game averages? These tools aren't necessarily bad or inferior, but someone with 20 years of basketball analysis and someone with 2 weeks of basketball analysis could come away with the same exact GOAT ranking list using these criteria, and while that isn't in any way incorrect or an inferior way of ranking players, it leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't exactly utilize everything we, as fans of a great sport, could be utilizing to form a ranking or perform a player analysis and comparison.

It makes sense you don't see the argument for Curry over Wilt because what you apparently value (Counting Statistics, Awards) don't favor Curry over Wilt. If that's your criteria, and there is nothing wrong with having that criteria [as stated above], then it isn't possible to have Curry over Wilt in any reality.


1 and 2 overlap. And you do Wilt the disservice of negating his defensive impact as well as his vertical gravity. I’m not simply counting stats here.


1 and 2 do overlap, but that isn't a negative or bad thing? I'm not really sure what you are attempting to articulate since I am simply presenting a reason to have Curry near the top 10.

I'm not doing any disservice. I never once even made an argument for either player over the other. I'm simply answering your question as to why one may value Curry highly and higher than you do. I'm here for discussion, not flex why I have Player A ahead of Player B.

Your post quite literally only included counting statistics and awards. How am I supposed to know you thought more than what you actually posted? I'm not a mind reader.


I listed the stats because if you go back to my initial posts, I said I never watched Wilt live. That said, the stats + longevity at a high level alone are key for Wilt over Curry right now. Add in the vets who saw Wilt who regularly have him in their top-5 all-time, and it’s pretty much a wrap. There is just about no argument for Curry over Wilt in the top-10. It doesn’t make a lick of sense. It doesn’t matter that Curry is the greatest shooter of all time and arguable GOAT off-ball threat on O. There’s just too much in Wilt’s favour right now.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#75 » by LA Bird » Mon Aug 2, 2021 1:00 am

Jaivl wrote:
LA Bird wrote:even if we completely ignore Wilt's box score stats, his impact metrics is comparable with any of the GOAT bigs.

Agree with the main point, but this is not true at all AFAIK.

Prime WOWYR
6.7 Shaq
6.4 Russell
6.2 Kareem
6.2 Garnett
6.0 Wilt
5.7 Duncan
5.7 Hakeem

Career WOWYR
6.2 Russell
6.1 Wilt
5.5 Hakeem
5.2 Shaq
4.7 Duncan
4.4 Garnett
4.1 Kareem

Those numbers look good to me.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#76 » by feyki » Mon Aug 2, 2021 6:53 am

Only Rookie Wilt has 6 SRS impact. 62 Wilt was bettter, 64 was better than 62, 66 was much better than 64 and 67 was a tier above impactful than 66. It's almost the 9-10 SRS impact a game, with the 120 Poss Game.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#77 » by Jaivl » Mon Aug 2, 2021 7:58 am

LA Bird wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
LA Bird wrote:even if we completely ignore Wilt's box score stats, his impact metrics is comparable with any of the GOAT bigs.

Agree with the main point, but this is not true at all AFAIK.

Prime WOWYR
6.7 Shaq
6.4 Russell
6.2 Kareem
6.2 Garnett
6.0 Wilt
5.7 Duncan
5.7 Hakeem

Career WOWYR
6.2 Russell
6.1 Wilt
5.5 Hakeem
5.2 Shaq
4.7 Duncan
4.4 Garnett
4.1 Kareem

Those numbers look good to me.

Those are not impact metrics, those are a mess.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#78 » by feyki » Mon Aug 2, 2021 8:40 am

Jaivl wrote:
LA Bird wrote:
Jaivl wrote:Agree with the main point, but this is not true at all AFAIK.

Prime WOWYR
6.7 Shaq
6.4 Russell
6.2 Kareem
6.2 Garnett
6.0 Wilt
5.7 Duncan
5.7 Hakeem

Career WOWYR
6.2 Russell
6.1 Wilt
5.5 Hakeem
5.2 Shaq
4.7 Duncan
4.4 Garnett
4.1 Kareem

Those numbers look good to me.

Those are not impact metrics, those are a mess.


WOWY is pretty usable when sample size is enough. I think at least 20 games needed.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#79 » by Jaivl » Mon Aug 2, 2021 10:09 am

feyki wrote:
Jaivl wrote:
LA Bird wrote:Prime WOWYR
6.7 Shaq
6.4 Russell
6.2 Kareem
6.2 Garnett
6.0 Wilt
5.7 Duncan
5.7 Hakeem

Career WOWYR
6.2 Russell
6.1 Wilt
5.5 Hakeem
5.2 Shaq
4.7 Duncan
4.4 Garnett
4.1 Kareem

Those numbers look good to me.

Those are not impact metrics, those are a mess.


WOWY is pretty usable when sample size is enough. I think at least 20 games needed.

WOWYR is not WOWY though (WOWY does in fact paint Wilt as fairly pedestrian), WOWYR is what happens when trying to solve a problem that's way beyond the scope of the avaliable dataset.
Maf wrote:I'd undestand if anyone had KG outside top ten PF's. Having him top five all-time? Often I jokingly rank Kyle Korver as the GOAT but I never try to fake serious discussion about it.

ShawnKemp96 wrote:Infact he made a lot more steals than the statisticians think.
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Re: Do we underrate Wilt nowadays? 

Post#80 » by ty 4191 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:40 am

Yes, most people underrate Wilt nowadays, on this forum.

Just a few:





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