Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis

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Better player?

2020 Anthony Davis
16
25%
2021 Giannis
48
75%
 
Total votes: 64

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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#21 » by Wooderson » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:00 pm

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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#22 » by Jaivl » Fri Jul 30, 2021 4:02 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:As someone who has been arguing that Giannis is better than Davis for past couple years, this feels so weird to see. Lol


Yeah, Giannis basically is the same player for 3 years, he plays against worse teams than in the past and has better teammates, his team wins, and now everyone is on Team Giannis.

In 2020, almost no one was taking Giannis over Davis. It just goes to show how much winning titles effects people's view of players. Realistically i doubt there's much of a gap between the 2 either way.

In 2020 Davis went absolutely nuclear in the playoffs, though. I always knew that was not sustainable, but you kinda have to consider that ultra-hot streak as part of his quality of play, same as Kobe in 2001.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#23 » by No-more-rings » Fri Jul 30, 2021 5:22 pm

Jaivl wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Yeah, Giannis basically is the same player for 3 years, he plays against worse teams than in the past and has better teammates, his team wins, and now everyone is on Team Giannis.

In 2020, almost no one was taking Giannis over Davis. It just goes to show how much winning titles effects people's view of players. Realistically i doubt there's much of a gap between the 2 either way.

In 2020 Davis went absolutely nuclear in the playoffs, though. I always knew that was not sustainable, but you kinda have to consider that ultra-hot streak as part of his quality of play, same as Kobe in 2001.

Well yeah, but I'll stand by what i said though. People tend to overreact and live in the moment for things like this. We're all guilty of it, or at least most of us. People may look back at 2020 Davis as a fluke, but he went 2nd behind Lebron pretty comfortably for POY and if i recall almost no one voted Giannis ahead even though he was mostly the same player then. People overreact to what's happening in the moment is all I'm saying. The same thing can happen to Giannis, if come next year a team finds a way to wall him out of the paint or whatever and his team goes home early people might look at this year as fluke.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#24 » by Pelly24 » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:09 am

Giannis in a vacuum is better than any version of AD, and that's going back to AD. Giannis is probably one of those guys that can get any decent team to 55 or 60 wins. AD is simply not in that tier.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#25 » by AussieBuck » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:21 am

Colbinii wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:As someone who has been arguing that Giannis is better than Davis for past couple years, this feels so weird to see. Lol


Yeah, Giannis basically is the same player for 3 years, he plays against worse teams than in the past and has better teammates, his team wins, and now everyone is on Team Giannis.

This isn't true at all. He's a stronger, smarter and more well rounded than he was three years ago.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#26 » by Modulate » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:38 am

You can make the argument that AD is more skilled or talented, or the more "all-around" player. Sure.

But Giannis is the more effective, more impactful player. Better motor. Not as injury prone. LEAD a team to a 'chip.

AD is a problem. Giannis is a monster.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#27 » by HeartBreakKid » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:39 am

AussieBuck wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:As someone who has been arguing that Giannis is better than Davis for past couple years, this feels so weird to see. Lol


Yeah, Giannis basically is the same player for 3 years, he plays against worse teams than in the past and has better teammates, his team wins, and now everyone is on Team Giannis.

This isn't true at all. He's a stronger, smarter and more well rounded than he was three years ago.


I mean sure - a 26 year old player is better than when they are 24. But it's not like he's in another stratosphere. Most of the things he did this season he was fully capable of doing the last couple of seasons.

Like his basketball IQ and well roundness did not take leaps and bounds. He played like an idiot plenty of times this season.

He's really not improved in any other ways other than being more seasoned.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#28 » by Colbinii » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:41 am

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AussieBuck wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:As someone who has been arguing that Giannis is better than Davis for past couple years, this feels so weird to see. Lol


Yeah, Giannis basically is the same player for 3 years, he plays against worse teams than in the past and has better teammates, his team wins, and now everyone is on Team Giannis.

This isn't true at all. He's a stronger, smarter and more well rounded than he was three years ago.


Basically the same, as in: Slightly Stronger and Slightly more seasoned.

My overarching point is the reason the Bucks weren't able to win in 2019 and won this season isn't because of some metamorphosis of Giannis as a basketball player. The Bucks won in large part this season compared to 2019 because no team was remotely as good as the 2019 Raptors, Eric Bledsoe was replaced by a super-charged version in Jrue Holiday while Middleton stepped up in moments he didn't before, and then Giannis playing a bit more within himself than before.

Look at a quick statistical snapshot:
2019 playoffs: 8.4 BPM, .219 WS/48, 26.5 PER, 57.0 TS%, 6.9% STL+BLK
2021 playoffs: 9.9 BPM, .224 WS/48, 27.6 PER, 59.9 TS%, 4.2% STL+BLK

These stats even include the outlier Finals performance. If you look at rounds 1-3, like he played in 2019...

57.3 TS%, 3.6% STL+BLK, lower BPM, PER, and WS/48.

I don't think anything I am insinuating is untrue here.

Oh, and here are the SRS's of his opponents.
2019: -0.56, 3.90, 5.49
2021: -0.06, 4.24, 2.14 (5.67 - Suns)
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#29 » by Colbinii » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:48 am

Modulate wrote:You can make the argument that AD is more skilled or talented, or the more "all-around" player. Sure.


Can you? Giannis is definitely more "all-around" than AD. I assume you mean "all-around" as in can do more things at a high level, and that's Giannis who does that, not AD.

Skilled or talented? I mean Giannis is a better passer. Giannis is a better ball-handler, a characteristic typically possessed by the more "skilled" player in a comparison.

But Giannis is the more effective, more impactful player. Better motor. Not as injury prone. LEAD a team to a 'chip.


AD missed 8 games in the regular season due to load-management and injury. That isn't much in today's NBA land-scape.

More impactful? I don't necessarily disagree, but what metrics are you measuring this by? Davis had one of the greatest shooting post-seasons ever in 2020 and averaged less than 2 minutes less per game compared to Giannis [Motor].
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#30 » by Gooner » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:09 am

Under current rules Giannis really is a new Shaq, as ridiculous as that sounds, but I have a hard time calling him a better player than Davis.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#31 » by dygaction » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:58 am

No-more-rings wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:As someone who has been arguing that Giannis is better than Davis for past couple years, this feels so weird to see. Lol


Yeah, Giannis basically is the same player for 3 years, he plays against worse teams than in the past and has better teammates, his team wins, and now everyone is on Team Giannis.

In 2020, almost no one was taking Giannis over Davis. It just goes to show how much winning titles effects people's view of players. Realistically i doubt there's much of a gap between the 2 either way.


The difference is dominance as team #1 option. Players look good playing along LeBron, but AD was tradable and Giannis was untouchable.
Giannis is ahead of AD with 2x MVP, 1x FMVP, and 1x DPoY while being 1 year younger.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#32 » by KGtabake » Sat Jul 31, 2021 9:36 am

Post 2018 all versions of Giannis have been slightly better.
AD will always be a better shooter (but not a better scorer).
I think that Giannis is better in defense (on ball and help), playmaking. Positioning, rebounding is a tie.
In mental approach i think that Giannis has proven he's a better leader.
Overall, even if AD had the conditioning and durability, i would still prefer Giannis.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#33 » by Bidofo » Sun Aug 1, 2021 9:52 pm

It was just a year ago but it's kinda like people forgot how absurd AD was playing in the playoffs last year. His regular season was mediocre and LeBron was clearly better there, so making that the basis of picking Giannis over AD would make sense. But the playoffs were a whole different story, and why he shot up in POY voting. The defensive competition wasn't impressive, but I'm not sure if there's any defense that was stopping his outlier outside shooting, an Anthony Davis shooting 55% from 16-3p and 38% from 3p is just stupid and unguardable. Not to mention the Lakers spacing situation was also mediocre.

The idea that "LeBron is greatly helping AD" on offense is approaching "Shaq greatly helps Kobe" level of myth. No doubt AD benefitted both individually and on a team level in some ways, but in the half court which is where it really comes down to in the playoffs, it's not like they were Nash+Amare. Them being two bigs made the dynamic way different.

AD '20 season RS+PS averages
With LeBron (2021 min): 33.6 pp100 @ 54.6 eFG%
Without LeBron (880 min): 42.8 pp100 @ 56.5 eFG%

So an expected increase in volume that comes with more usage, but a slight increase in efficiency as well. You put this AD on the Bucks instead of Giannis and they still win the chip, and probably in fewer games. He's definitely not getting slowed down by Blake Griffin. Defensively, I think it goes in AD's direction, one thing you can say about that Lakers playoff run was that the offenses they faced required a disciplined gameplan, and AD played a huge role. It's pretty close, but I think it's clearly AD. That being said...

drza wrote:Giannis by a country mile. Over-simplifying it...I was arguing with someone, before the season started, that the Bucks trading Bledsoe for Holiday made them title favorites this season. My opponent pointed out that we'd seen teams with Anthony Davis and Jrue Holiday as the foundation for years, and that if Davis and Holiday could only be the foundation for an average, sometimey playoffs squad, how could Giannis and Holiday be the centerpiece of a champion? His logic was that Davis was better than, or at least as good as Giannis, so there was no way it could work.

It's flawed logic, but in broad terms...there's some element of truth in it. This year's Bucks, outside of Giannis and Holiday, weren't really all that much better than some of the casts of the Pels. Yet one team was average, the other a champion.

I've argued before that Giannis is, simply, a much higher impact focal player than Davis. Davis is an elite finishing piece, and playing on those Lakers next to LeBron allowed him to be that, but as the focal point?

It's Giannis. By a non-insignificant margin

Giannis by a country mile makes no sense to me. This reasoning sounds very inconsistent with your pro-KG opinions, especially since I believe you take peak KG > Giannis, and AD in the 2021 playoffs was playing better than KG ever did in the postseason. Nevermind the fact that comparing the Bucks and Pelicans supporting casts is ridiculous, AD + Jrue were losing to the '15 and '18 Warriors. I guarantee you these Bucks will look pretty average playing against them too, hell they were already looking very average against the 2021 Nets that were injured and a worse team. Sounds like a case of winning bias.

Focal point? As in offensive focal point? Because Giannis grades out better than KG there too, but then it became a matter of skillset. If we apply that here too, Davis is a weaker passer than Giannis (and KG), but much better shooter and offball player, fits more seamlessly with guards (as you pointed out in another post, Jrue played better in the games Giannis was out), and more or less an equivalent defender. It may have been an outlier postseason by AD, but we can't just erase it from his '20 season.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#34 » by Ron Swanson » Sun Aug 1, 2021 10:26 pm

The irony of people accusing championship recency bias with Giannis is pretty rich considering everyone last year did the exact same thing with AD re: confirmation bias. Giannis has been the better player for about 4 years now while putting up 2-3 better RS peak/prime seasons than AD ever has. Davis basically has one 20-game stretch in an empty gym that people use as evidence to say he’s the better player. Outside of the Disney World “playoffs” what is there to suggest AD is on the same level as a guy who’s been the markedly better regular season player and who just put up a Top-15 or 20 postseason run ever?
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#35 » by Statlanta » Sun Aug 1, 2021 11:18 pm

I think the Heat can be an indicator between the players.

I'd prefer AD to be honest.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#36 » by feyki » Mon Aug 2, 2021 6:27 am

2019 :
Before the injury of AD in 45 Games - +2,0

Post injury in 37 Games - -6,4

Difference Margin - +8,4


2021 :

Before the injury of AD against the Suns in the first 3 Games - +4,0(Over of 5,67 and that's make 9,67 SRS Team)

After the injury of AD against the Suns in the last 3 Games - -17,0(Of course, they're not a -11,5 SRS team without AD; but they're out of competition to against the 5,5/6 SRS Team, that's means they're +1 SRS team at best without AD)

Difference Margin - +8,6
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#37 » by LukaTheGOAT » Mon Aug 2, 2021 2:55 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:The irony of people accusing championship recency bias with Giannis is pretty rich considering everyone last year did the exact same thing with AD re: confirmation bias. Giannis has been the better player for about 4 years now while putting up 2-3 better RS peak/prime seasons than AD ever has. Davis basically has one 20-game stretch in an empty gym that people use as evidence to say he’s the better player. Outside of the Disney World “playoffs” what is there to suggest AD is on the same level as a guy who’s been the markedly better regular season player and who just put up a Top-15 or 20 postseason run ever?


I am pretty sure this year's playoffs had a higher average offensive rating, had more 40 point games, and also multiple players have a scoring per possession higher than anyone from last year. To insinuate that AD's performance was only possible in a format seems disgenious.
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#38 » by LukaTheGOAT » Mon Aug 2, 2021 3:14 pm

Bidofo wrote:It was just a year ago but it's kinda like people forgot how absurd AD was playing in the playoffs last year. His regular season was mediocre and LeBron was clearly better there, so making that the basis of picking Giannis over AD would make sense. But the playoffs were a whole different story, and why he shot up in POY voting. The defensive competition wasn't impressive, but I'm not sure if there's any defense that was stopping his outlier outside shooting, an Anthony Davis shooting 55% from 16-3p and 38% from 3p is just stupid and unguardable. Not to mention the Lakers spacing situation was also mediocre.

The idea that "LeBron is greatly helping AD" on offense is approaching "Shaq greatly helps Kobe" level of myth. No doubt AD benefitted both individually and on a team level in some ways, but in the half court which is where it really comes down to in the playoffs, it's not like they were Nash+Amare. Them being two bigs made the dynamic way different.

AD '20 season RS+PS averages
With LeBron (2021 min): 33.6 pp100 @ 54.6 eFG%
Without LeBron (880 min): 42.8 pp100 @ 56.5 eFG%

So an expected increase in volume that comes with more usage, but a slight increase in efficiency as well. You put this AD on the Bucks instead of Giannis and they still win the chip, and probably in fewer games. He's definitely not getting slowed down by Blake Griffin. Defensively, I think it goes in AD's direction, one thing you can say about that Lakers playoff run was that the offenses they faced required a disciplined gameplan, and AD played a huge role. It's pretty close, but I think it's clearly AD. That being said...

drza wrote:Giannis by a country mile. Over-simplifying it...I was arguing with someone, before the season started, that the Bucks trading Bledsoe for Holiday made them title favorites this season. My opponent pointed out that we'd seen teams with Anthony Davis and Jrue Holiday as the foundation for years, and that if Davis and Holiday could only be the foundation for an average, sometimey playoffs squad, how could Giannis and Holiday be the centerpiece of a champion? His logic was that Davis was better than, or at least as good as Giannis, so there was no way it could work.

It's flawed logic, but in broad terms...there's some element of truth in it. This year's Bucks, outside of Giannis and Holiday, weren't really all that much better than some of the casts of the Pels. Yet one team was average, the other a champion.

I've argued before that Giannis is, simply, a much higher impact focal player than Davis. Davis is an elite finishing piece, and playing on those Lakers next to LeBron allowed him to be that, but as the focal point?

It's Giannis. By a non-insignificant margin

Giannis by a country mile makes no sense to me. This reasoning sounds very inconsistent with your pro-KG opinions, especially since I believe you take peak KG > Giannis, and AD in the 2021 playoffs was playing better than KG ever did in the postseason. Nevermind the fact that comparing the Bucks and Pelicans supporting casts is ridiculous, AD + Jrue were losing to the '15 and '18 Warriors. I guarantee you these Bucks will look pretty average playing against them too, hell they were already looking very average against the 2021 Nets that were injured and a worse team. Sounds like a case of winning bias.

Focal point? As in offensive focal point? Because Giannis grades out better than KG there too, but then it became a matter of skillset. If we apply that here too, Davis is a weaker passer than Giannis (and KG), but much better shooter and offball player, fits more seamlessly with guards (as you pointed out in another post, Jrue played better in the games Giannis was out), and more or less an equivalent defender. It may have been an outlier postseason by AD, but we can't just erase it from his '20 season.


It is also interesting to note, that even if you consider AD a second bannana, he was seemingly able to put up more impact in a supporting role on offense (which is one of the arguments for him, that he can play well off-ball better than most stars), while anchoring a defense.

2020 Anthony Davis in the Postseason
29.3 pts/75 on rTS% of 9.8% (0.2 PlayVal)

RAPTOR-12.5 (#1 in the PS for all qualifying players)

Backpicks BPM-6.7

AuPM/G-4.3

2021 Giannis
29.8 pts/75 on rTS% of 3.1% (0.9 PlayVal)

RAPTOR-6.6

Backpicks BPM-6.2

AuPM/g-3.6

By ScoreVal, Anthony Davis had a historic PS scoring the ball and did it in several facets. Sure, he benefitted from good shooting, but I would say Giannis arguably did too throughout the end of his PS run, as his shooting got better throughout the run.

It will be hard to take any player over Giannis in the world, if he continues to play like an off ball big who doesn't settle for jumper, but the fact of the matter, is we have a relatively small sample of him doing this. It is fair to take AD over Giannis if you are pessimistic about Giannis continuing his play from the 2nd half ot he PS.

AD benefits from playing with a primary creator, but I think Giannis does too, if we look at this year's PS results compared to the last two playoffs. Plus from watching him, and also looking at their playmaking estimates, Giannis is a fine, but not otherwordly playmaker, and might not be ideal for powering an offense as a #1 in many years based off competition (which means off-ball play becomes more vital).
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#39 » by falcolombardi » Mon Aug 2, 2021 3:48 pm

Ron Swanson wrote:The irony of people accusing championship recency bias with Giannis is pretty rich considering everyone last year did the exact same thing with AD re: confirmation bias. Giannis has been the better player for about 4 years now while putting up 2-3 better RS peak/prime seasons than AD ever has. Davis basically has one 20-game stretch in an empty gym that people use as evidence to say he’s the better player. Outside of the Disney World “playoffs” what is there to suggest AD is on the same level as a guy who’s been the markedly better regular season player and who just put up a Top-15 or 20 postseason run ever?


every team was playing without fans, that didnt magicallg make players better or the teams different

hell. if these year results happened in a bubble we would have called suns and hawks a bubble fluke too
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Re: Better player: 2020 Anthony Davis vs 2021 Giannis 

Post#40 » by Wooderson » Mon Aug 2, 2021 4:47 pm

Colbinii wrote:[instagram][/instagram]
AussieBuck wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
Yeah, Giannis basically is the same player for 3 years, he plays against worse teams than in the past and has better teammates, his team wins, and now everyone is on Team Giannis.

This isn't true at all. He's a stronger, smarter and more well rounded than he was three years ago.


Basically the same, as in: Slightly Stronger and Slightly more seasoned.

My overarching point is the reason the Bucks weren't able to win in 2019 and won this season isn't because of some metamorphosis of Giannis as a basketball player. The Bucks won in large part this season compared to 2019 because no team was remotely as good as the 2019 Raptors, Eric Bledsoe was replaced by a super-charged version in Jrue Holiday while Middleton stepped up in moments he didn't before, and then Giannis playing a bit more within himself than before.

Look at a quick statistical snapshot:
2019 playoffs: 8.4 BPM, .219 WS/48, 26.5 PER, 57.0 TS%, 6.9% STL+BLK
2021 playoffs: 9.9 BPM, .224 WS/48, 27.6 PER, 59.9 TS%, 4.2% STL+BLK

These stats even include the outlier Finals performance. If you look at rounds 1-3, like he played in 2019...

57.3 TS%, 3.6% STL+BLK, lower BPM, PER, and WS/48.

I don't think anything I am insinuating is untrue here.

Oh, and here are the SRS's of his opponents.
2019: -0.56, 3.90, 5.49
2021: -0.06, 4.24, 2.14 (5.67 - Suns)


Why would you pick the Finals to exclude? From midway through the Nets series on he was playing more offball, more willing to take floaters/turnaround jumpers in the paint/and acting quicker with decision-making. He even talked about needing to trust teammates more around that same time. If anything the Suns series was an accumulation of improvements in his play and how he was being utilized.

It would make more sense to exclude his the first round which had a few blowouts and Giannis was jacking 3s in garbage time. Rounds 2-4, the competitive series, he averaged:

31.8/12.3/4.5 with a 62.1% TS, 4.3% ST+BLK, and only a 10.7% TO rate.

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