Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
I don't get how people are mentioning years like 02 or 04.
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
No-more-rings wrote:uberhikari wrote:I'm known for consistently being down on Joker on these boards because of his defense but it's going to take a lot to convince me that there are literally any years where Kobe was better on offense than 2021 Joker.
Joker obviously has some defensive problems but in a comparison with Kobe, who was a mediocre defender for most of his career, it's not that relevant in this comparison even if Joker plays a more important defensive position.
Joker is so much better than Kobe offensively that I will eat the defensive liability.
Didn't you say in another thread that you can't win a title with Joker as your best player? If you believe that why would you be confident in him over Kobe who won 2 as the clear best?
I don't believe I ever said that. If I did, I misspoke. IIRC I said that it's simply harder to do it with him because you need to account for his defensive deficiencies.
Moreover, a huge chunk of Jokic's defensive liability is era-dependent. He can be exposed because of the space of this era but he'd be fine in any era pre-2008. Jokic is a strong post-defender and although he's not a great rim protector he's not A'mare Stoudemire either. If I had to guess I'd say he's marginally worse than middle-aged Dirk.
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
uberhikari wrote:
Moreover, a huge chunk of Jokic's defensive liability is era-dependent. He can be exposed because of the space of this era but he'd be fine in any era pre-2008. Jokic is a strong post-defender and although he's not a great rim protector he's not A'mare Stoudemire either. If I had to guess I'd say he's marginally worse than middle-aged Dirk.
So you think Jokic is worse today than he would in prior eras overall? I think it's probably more or less cancelled out by the fact that his offense gets a boost today.
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
None.
And I want to note, despite all the negative hype around Jokic’s defense the guy he ended 2/3 of his postseason runs in the positive by defensive metrics.
Kobe was not an elite defender. He really was rarely even ‘good’. Always average to mediocre defensively in his best offensive years.
And his best offensive years fall clearly short to Jokic.
Jokic is just better at basketball on too many levels to me. I personally put the defensive resiliency in the playoffs aside.
And I want to stress Jokic is not a bad defender at all. He’s an exploitable one. And AGAIN, has been thoroughly exploited less times than not in the playoffs.
And I want to note, despite all the negative hype around Jokic’s defense the guy he ended 2/3 of his postseason runs in the positive by defensive metrics.
Kobe was not an elite defender. He really was rarely even ‘good’. Always average to mediocre defensively in his best offensive years.
And his best offensive years fall clearly short to Jokic.
Jokic is just better at basketball on too many levels to me. I personally put the defensive resiliency in the playoffs aside.
And I want to stress Jokic is not a bad defender at all. He’s an exploitable one. And AGAIN, has been thoroughly exploited less times than not in the playoffs.
Swinging for the fences.
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
I agree with none. This year Jokic was better on both sides of the court, even if Kobe had some better postseasons, for the whole year Jokic was clearly ahead.
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
Any year from 00-13. I can imagine how bad Kobe would torch this era.
Also, Kobe has the hero factor. If your team is just playing terrible theres still a chance Kobe could just takeover and single handily win it from the offensive end. Jokic can't do that.
Also, Kobe has the hero factor. If your team is just playing terrible theres still a chance Kobe could just takeover and single handily win it from the offensive end. Jokic can't do that.
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
fpliii wrote:I might have to defend Kobe here, I'm not really high on Jokic because of the defense. Kobe was average (and at times a liability at that end), but on a position basis you need standout D a lot more from your center.
I'd probably take 01-10 Kobe, excluding 05.
Kobe has definitely been overrated on defense (particularly in the regular season) but I feel like the RealGM consensus has swung too far in the opposite direction.
People worry that Jokic's weakness on defense make him more exploitable in the playoffs. Kobe's defensive strengths make him more valuable on defense in the playoffs. When locked in and not carrying too heavy an offensive load, he can absolutely be a plus guard/wing defender in the post season.
Not only is Jokic more exploitable (at a far more important defensive position) in the postseason, but Kobe can definitely be an asset to a postseason defense and almost definitely won't be hunted.
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
fpliii wrote:I might have to defend Kobe here, I'm not really high on Jokic because of the defense. Kobe was average (and at times a liability at that end), but on a position basis you need standout D a lot more from your center.
I'd probably take 01-10 Kobe, excluding 05.
Isn't this basically penalizing him based on position played (and/or giving Kobe a pass based on position played)?
This certainly seems to imply you're saying that if both guys are amazing on offense [for simplicity's sake, let's say "equally amazing/impactful"], and are also "equally mediocre" on defense......then you are going with Kobe (because mediocre defense is more forgivable at his position).
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
trex_8063 wrote:fpliii wrote:I might have to defend Kobe here, I'm not really high on Jokic because of the defense. Kobe was average (and at times a liability at that end), but on a position basis you need standout D a lot more from your center.
I'd probably take 01-10 Kobe, excluding 05.
Isn't this basically penalizing him based on position played (and/or giving Kobe a pass based on position played)?
This certainly seems to imply you're saying that if both guys are amazing on offense [for simplicity's sake, let's say "equally amazing/impactful"], and are also "equally mediocre" on defense......then you are going with Kobe (because mediocre defense is more forgivable at his position).
It may well just be an articulation issue, and I don't feel strongly on any conclusion to the core question ...
... but if your reading is correct it's sort of like the "No team has won a title with a defender as mediocre as Jokic since ..." which (besides the small samples on title winning teams, the ways in which that sort of statement could've/had been misapplied e.g. re jump shooting team etc) somewhat missed the point that very few teams have had as good an offensive center as Jokic or indeed anywhere near him, so those teams would in the vast majority of cases (of teams with a center equal to or less than Jokic on D), just have a lot worse net value at center.
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2001-2012 minus 05 and 11
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
No-more-rings wrote:uberhikari wrote:
Moreover, a huge chunk of Jokic's defensive liability is era-dependent. He can be exposed because of the space of this era but he'd be fine in any era pre-2008. Jokic is a strong post-defender and although he's not a great rim protector he's not A'mare Stoudemire either. If I had to guess I'd say he's marginally worse than middle-aged Dirk.
So you think Jokic is worse today than he would in prior eras overall? I think it's probably more or less cancelled out by the fact that his offense gets a boost today.
This is not true. Joker would be better than Kobe on offense in any era you can think of. Joker has the better shot selection, is an elite 3-level scorer, is a top 10 passer/playmaker of all time regardless of position, and is an elite 1-on-1 low post scorer in the mold of McHale. These things would translate to any era.
The opposite is actually true. It's precisely because of Joker's offensive resiliency that the farther away you get from this era and the less his defensive liabilities can be exposed the more valuable he'd become.
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It's an interesting question. I do think Jokic is probably a better player if he's maximized, which hasn't happened yet because he needs a solid defender somewhere on the floor. But Jokic is already probably as good or better than Kobe as a scorer all things considered. Jokic w. a big efficiency advantage while being as good a shotmaker. Kobe though could score 50 points in 5 straight games and he was an elite athlete and didn't even always play smart, so his numbers understate his ability somewhat. I think Kobe is a more seamless player to insert into more teams, but Jokic is still a better player
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Amares wrote:I agree with none. This year Jokic was better on both sides of the court, even if Kobe had some better postseasons, for the whole year Jokic was clearly ahead.
I agree with "none" also.
Despite the team missing 10 games this year, Jokic's 20-21 (regular season) is top 10 (post NBA merger) in PER, WS/48, BPM. Kobe's best season doesn't even come remotely close to the top 10 in any of these, despite having 10 more games to work with.
And, despite playing only 10 playoff games this year, this year's 29.8/11.6/5.0 in the playoffs is still top 10 all time in BPM. Had he played 20+ games in the playoffs this year, he'd probably be top 10 in the same metrics for this year's playoffs, also.
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Re: Which versions of Kobe were better than 2021 Nikola Jokic?
uberhikari wrote:No-more-rings wrote:uberhikari wrote:
Moreover, a huge chunk of Jokic's defensive liability is era-dependent. He can be exposed because of the space of this era but he'd be fine in any era pre-2008. Jokic is a strong post-defender and although he's not a great rim protector he's not A'mare Stoudemire either. If I had to guess I'd say he's marginally worse than middle-aged Dirk.
So you think Jokic is worse today than he would in prior eras overall? I think it's probably more or less cancelled out by the fact that his offense gets a boost today.
This is not true. Joker would be better than Kobe on offense in any era you can think of. Joker has the better shot selection, is an elite 3-level scorer, is a top 10 passer/playmaker of all time regardless of position, and is an elite 1-on-1 low post scorer in the mold of McHale. These things would translate to any era.
The opposite is actually true. It's precisely because of Joker's offensive resiliency that the farther away you get from this era and the less his defensive liabilities can be exposed the more valuable he'd become.
Wait are you claiming that Jokic’s offense would be as good or better in other eras? I don’t see that at all but perhaps you can clarify why if you believe that. It’s not something specific to him, I don’t think really anyone gets better offensively going backwards from this era.
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‘01, ‘03, ‘06-‘10. I just trust Kobe to get it done more in the playoffs. If it was RS only Jokic has a case.
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ty 4191 wrote:Amares wrote:I agree with none. This year Jokic was better on both sides of the court, even if Kobe had some better postseasons, for the whole year Jokic was clearly ahead.
I agree with "none" also.
Despite the team missing 10 games this year, Jokic's 20-21 (regular season) is top 10 (post NBA merger) in PER, WS/48, BPM. Kobe's best season doesn't even come remotely close to the top 10 in any of these, despite having 10 more games to work with.
And, despite playing only 10 playoff games this year, this year's 29.8/11.6/5.0 in the playoffs is still top 10 all time in BPM. Had he played 20+ games in the playoffs this year, he'd probably be top 10 in the same metrics for this year's playoffs, also.
Those are rate metrics so Jokic isn't affected by playing less games. I haven't checked his winshares or VORP, which is an accumulation of value added (and therefore games played matter).
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LukaTheGOAT wrote:Those are rate metrics so Jokic isn't affected by playing less games. I haven't checked his winshares or VORP, which is an accumulation of value added (and therefore games played matter).
Still, the point holds. Kobe was nowhere in the UNIVERSE of Jokic for any single season, statistically.
Also, Jokic is doing his damage in a much more globalized, stronger game. The NBA had 7.6% foreign born players when Kobe entered the league. Today, it's closer to 30%, and the NBA hasn't expanded (adding garbage teams) since 2004.
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Pelly24 wrote:It's an interesting question. I do think Jokic is probably a better player if he's maximized, which hasn't happened yet because he needs a solid defender somewhere on the floor. But Jokic is already probably as good or better than Kobe as a scorer all things considered. Jokic w. a big efficiency advantage while being as good a shotmaker. Kobe though could score 50 points in 5 straight games and he was an elite athlete and didn't even always play smart, so his numbers understate his ability somewhat. I think Kobe is a more seamless player to insert into more teams, but Jokic is still a better player
Jokic wasn't even top ten in the league in scoring rate (pts/75). How is he a better scorer?
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Strepbacter wrote:Pelly24 wrote:It's an interesting question. I do think Jokic is probably a better player if he's maximized, which hasn't happened yet because he needs a solid defender somewhere on the floor. But Jokic is already probably as good or better than Kobe as a scorer all things considered. Jokic w. a big efficiency advantage while being as good a shotmaker. Kobe though could score 50 points in 5 straight games and he was an elite athlete and didn't even always play smart, so his numbers understate his ability somewhat. I think Kobe is a more seamless player to insert into more teams, but Jokic is still a better player
Jokic wasn't even top ten in the league in scoring rate (pts/75). How is he a better scorer?
this includes some of Kobe's beginning years so not all the way accurate but:
Like honestly, Jokic, if he keeps this up for another four or five years, and there's really no reason he can't, you'd have to say he was a better scorer than Kobe. He's at +7 TS% and his production has mostly held up in the playoffs. He is able to score 27-28 points per 75 on that efficiency. That's super rare company, and it matches the eye test, too.