Another project idea; the greatest primes among the top 10 ever

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 2:08 pm

I've been finding myself referring to "the top 10/12 seasons between XXX and XXX" quite often recently when I talk about primes.

I think it'd be good to do a project about it, especially since we have peaks project and top 100 project with longevity being under consideration and nothing in between for prime. Having a complete list between each possibilities of 2 would give us a better sense about what we're ranking so highly.

I have the top 10 ever in mind because that's already 45 h2h comparisons and anything a lot further would make it unfeasible (top 20 would need 190 h2h comparisons and many of them would be just pointless).
Also the top 10 has been pretty steady looking at the last 3 top 100 projects (2014, 2017, 2020) in here. So, our list will have;

Code: Select all

LeBron James
Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain
Magic Johnson
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Larry Bird

to compare in h2hs.

Personally, I'd like to do top 12 seasons over top 10 seasons for 2 things; the first is to eliminate impact of psychological effect of the decimal system & the second is to see how they'd compare against each other in a mid-low prime season by granting both sides 1 more shot.

If there's enough interest in doing such project, I intend to start the project in the next 10 days. Cheers.

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

Edit
I guess I should add a sample thread to make the concept clear; a sample of top 10 seasons between Olajuwon and Duncan

eminence · Post #2 » by **eminence** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 2:16 pm

Does EvanZ still have the website he'd set up for doing this sort of thing? I want to say he used it for comparing draftees, but similar concept - comparing a bunch of different things head to head and coming up with an order based off it.

I'm on mobile, but you could shoot him a PM or quote or twitter or whatever.

Could still have discussion threads as well obviously.

homecourtloss · Post #3 » by **homecourtloss** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 2:19 pm

Love the idea, Odinn21. The collection of information in one place in the latest top 100 and latest greatest peaks thread has been invaluable when looking to compare certain things for me. The greatest 12 year primes between the top 10 or so should yield some very interesting discussions ESPECIALLY I think around these fringe prime years.

Dutchball97 · Post #4 » by **Dutchball97** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 2:20 pm

Fun idea but 12 seasons is pretty much the entire career of some of these guys. I think we'd see Bird, Magic and Shaq get a bit of a boost but other than that it is too similar to career rankings imo. Why not something like 5 or 7 years to get a good middle ground between peak and career?

Odinn21 · Post #5 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 2:26 pm

eminence wrote:Does EvanZ still have the website he'd set up for doing this sort of thing? I want to say he used it for comparing draftees, but similar concept - comparing a bunch of different things head to head and coming up with an order based off it.

I'm on mobile, but you could shoot him a PM or quote or twitter or whatever.

Could still have discussion threads as well obviously.

This might be the first time I'm hearing about this because if I did before, I know I'd spend so much time on it.

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Dutchball97 wrote:Fun idea but 12 seasons is pretty much the entire career of some of these guys. I think we'd see Bird, Magic and Shaq get a bit of a boost but other than that it is too similar to career rankings imo. Why not something like 5 or 7 years to get a good middle ground between peak and career?

It's top 12 seasons between 2 players. Not a comparison of top 12 seasons of Bird and top 12 seasons of Olajuwon type comparison directly.

Dutchball97 · Post #6 » by **Dutchball97** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 2:29 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:Fun idea but 12 seasons is pretty much the entire career of some of these guys. I think we'd see Bird, Magic and Shaq get a bit of a boost but other than that it is too similar to career rankings imo. Why not something like 5 or 7 years to get a good middle ground between peak and career?

It's top 12 seasons between 2 players. Not a comparison of top 12 seasons of Bird and top 12 seasons of Olajuwon type comparison directly.

Ah my bad. In that case 12 seasons is perfect. Count me in.

70sFan · Post #7 » by **70sFan** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 2:33 pm

I'd like to see how it'll work out. Count me in, though I probably won't have a lot of time in next weeks.

Odinn21 · Post #8 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 2:38 pm

homecourtloss wrote:Love the idea, Odinn21. The collection of information in one place in the latest top 100 and latest greatest peaks thread has been invaluable when looking to compare certain things for me. The greatest 12 year primes between the top 10 or so should yield some very interesting discussions ESPECIALLY I think around these fringe prime years.

We're so used to comparing peaks and careers, I think impact of those fringe prime seasons are overlooked pretty much. And it's not even 6 best seasons vs. 6 best seasons, it's direct top 12 seasons. If a player's fringe prime seasons doesn't make the cut, it'll be more telling and more definitive for us. (Tbh, there are certain comparisons I have in mind for this.

)

falcolombardi · Post #9 » by **falcolombardi** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 2:49 pm

so would it all be head to head comparisions?

if i am understanding that right wouldnt it be a bit too long, basically 45 different comparisions?

Odinn21 · Post #10 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 3:21 pm

falcolombardi wrote:so would it all be head to head comparisions?

if i am understanding that right wouldnt it be a bit too long, basically 45 different comparisions?

We don't do easy and short projects in here. :lol:

Yes, it'll be all h2h comparisons.
45 h2h would take 3 months to complete and that's not something weird in here. My latest, rather light, project took 2 months.

Since this is a message board, it's not just about rankings and tracking them, we discuss about the topic or the comparison at hand. Generating discussion and seeing if personal rankings actually holding up against fair criticism is actually more important than the rankings for many of us.
From individualistic pov, I want to do this project to see if my rankings are actually consistent and fair in an educated environment, not to see if I have the right or the best answers.
So, since I already want to engage about it, I don't think of the duration as too long.

LukaTheGOAT · Post #11 » by **LukaTheGOAT** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 3:34 pm

I just wanted to say this is an excellent idea, thank you for presenting it.

Will regards to prime, does it have to be the top 12 years in a row, ir just the general top 12 years a player ever had?It likely won't matter, I just wanted clarity regarding that.

sansterre · Post #12 » by **sansterre** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 3:45 pm

I absolutely have no time for any more projects.

So count me in

It won't be to the level of detail I'd like, but I'll certainly do my part.

Odinn21 · Post #13 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 4:30 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:I just wanted to say this is an excellent idea, thank you for presenting it.

Will regards to prime, does it have to be the top 12 years in a row, ir just the general top 12 years a player ever had?It likely won't matter, I just wanted clarity regarding that.

No, it doesn't have to be 12 seasons in a row. It's also not a comparison between top 12 seasons of XXX and top 12 seasons of YYY.

It's ranking top 12 seasons between 2 players, like this;
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1858941

Max123 · Post #14 » by **Max123** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 4:39 pm

I like the idea. Don’t you think that Garnett should be included though considering how high many people here are on him?

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70sFan · Post #15 » by **70sFan** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 4:41 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:I just wanted to say this is an excellent idea, thank you for presenting it.

Will regards to prime, does it have to be the top 12 years in a row, ir just the general top 12 years a player ever had?It likely won't matter, I just wanted clarity regarding that.

No, it doesn't have to be 12 seasons in a row. It's also not a comparison between top 12 seasons of XXX and top 12 seasons of YYY.

It's ranking top 12 seasons between 2 players, like this;
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1858941

What will be the order?

Odinn21 · Post #16 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 4:53 pm

70sFan wrote:What will be the order?

I'll enter all 45 h2h possibilities on random.org/lists, and it'll give us our order.
Doing it from bottom to top (with the rankings in the top 100 projects) or vice versa would feel too repetitive, so, randomising is a good solution imo.

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Max123 wrote:I like the idea. Don’t you think that Garnett should be included though considering how high many people here are on him?

I know he's quite popular and I don't like snubbing players like KG, Kobe, Oscar and the Logo. Oscar is the guy I'm sad about leaving out the most. But think of it this way;
10 options have 45 possibilities.
11 have 55.
12 have 66.
13 have 78.
14 have 91.
15 have 105.

And since every thread will be open for 2 days, going from 10 to 11 is a 20 days jump over already 90 days project and considering how the votes worked out in the top 100 projects, it's not like those snubbed players are definitely in the same tier as the top 10. So, I think taking the top 10 is the right decision.

Max123 · Post #17 » by **Max123** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 5:00 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:What will be the order?

I'll enter all 45 h2h possibilities on random.org/lists, and it'll give us our order.
Doing it from bottom to top (with the rankings in the top 100 projects) or vice versa would feel too repetitive, so, randomising is a good solution imo.

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Max123 wrote:I like the idea. Don’t you think that Garnett should be included though considering how high many people here are on him?

I know he's quite popular and I don't like snubbing players like KG, Kobe, Oscar and the Logo. Oscar is the guy I'm sad about leaving out the most. But think of it this way;
10 options have 45 possibilities.
11 have 55.
12 have 66.
13 have 78.
14 have 91.
15 have 105.

And since every thread will be open for 2 days, going from 10 to 11 is a 22 days jump over already 90 days project and considering how the votes worked out in the top 100 projects, it's not like those snubbed players are definitely in the same tier as the top 10. So, I think taking the top 10 is the right decision.

I understand totally, it just seems that for me, and maybe for most posters on the PC board, Garnett was the most notable cut here.

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DQuinn1575 · Post #18 » by **DQuinn1575** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 5:02 pm

Max123 wrote:I like the idea. Don’t you think that Garnett should be included though considering how high many people here are on him?

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Garnett was 11th in both the last career and peaks project, with the other 10 all being ahead of him in both. So while he is 1st runner-up, realize that adding 1 guy adds 10 more comparisons.

so yes, I will be up for this, I really havent done anything to analyze seasons like this, so for me it will be interesting, and hopefully i learn a little/lot.

Jaivl · Post #19 » by **Jaivl** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 7:00 pm

Max123 wrote:I like the idea. Don’t you think that Garnett should be included though considering how high many people here are on him?

Well KG got more votes than Bird for #10 on the GOAT list, and I'm extremely high on him, but no, you have to draw the line somewhere. And if we go with top 10 we go with top 10, not "top 10 plus the other basically-tied-for-number-10 guy, plus this guy that has a similar level prime, plus...".

Max123 · Post #20 » by **Max123** » Fri Sep 3, 2021 7:05 pm

Jaivl wrote:
Max123 wrote:I like the idea. Don’t you think that Garnett should be included though considering how high many people here are on him?

Well KG got more votes than Bird for #10 on the GOAT list, and I'm extremely high on him, but no, you have to draw the line somewhere. And if we go with top 10 we go with top 10, not "top 10 plus the other basically-tied-for-number-10 guy, plus this guy that has a similar level prime, plus...".

Agree but just questioning whether or not the line should be drawn decisively at 10 (e.g. why not 7, 8, 9, 11, 12?) and if KG should be the player left out of this group. I don’t personally necessarily know where to stand on this matter.

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