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Who was/is the better player at their best? Who is a better #1 option, and who would be better in a supporting role?

I think 2020 Butler in the playoffs was on the mvp level. So, I would pick 2020 Butler.

Pierce was a better shooter and an underrated athlete. He had the ability to take over games more than Jimmy Butler who is at his best as a supporting player.

Pierce easy. I watched him go head to head with Kobe and Lebron, in their primes, and come out on top.

Stalwart wrote:Pierce easy. I watched him go head to head with Kobe and Lebron, in their primes, and come out on top.

I think Pierce was underrated, but to me this stuff with LeBron was overstated. We all saw that once LeBron got great teammates Paul Pierce never won against him again lol.

I think this is about a draw though. Jimmy seems like a better floor-raiser and maybe a more impactful player all around, though his jumper is really trash these days.

Pelly24 wrote:

Stalwart wrote:Pierce easy. I watched him go head to head with Kobe and Lebron, in their primes, and come out on top.

I think Pierce was underrated, but to me this stuff with LeBron was overstated. We all saw that once LeBron got great teammates Paul Pierce never won against him again lol.

I think this is about a draw though. Jimmy seems like a better floor-raiser and maybe a more impactful player all around, though his jumper is really trash these days.

Well of course because Lebron is better than Pierce. That still doesn't take away how well he performed against those guys on the biggest stages. Pierce really proved his resiliency, his heart, his skill, and his leadership during that late 2000s era. And hes got a fMVP to show for it. Jimmy Butler has never been at that level.

Pelly24 wrote:

Stalwart wrote:Pierce easy. I watched him go head to head with Kobe and Lebron, in their primes, and come out on top.

I think Pierce was underrated, but to me this stuff with LeBron was overstated. We all saw that once LeBron got great teammates Paul Pierce never won against him again lol.

I think this is about a draw though. Jimmy seems like a better floor-raiser and maybe a more impactful player all around, though his jumper is really trash these days.

- Lebron got great teammates? You meant joining with a player who was a rival of him as being the best in the league? Before it Lebron had great teams as +5 SRS teams.

- If I assume 2019 Lebron as peak/prime Lebron and would say Lebron was half of the player Kobe was, it's fine? Prime Pierce was between 01-09.

- So, you're evaluating players on winning bias? Then no need to talk about players, list them based on team rankings.

Stalwart wrote:

Pelly24 wrote:

Stalwart wrote:Pierce easy. I watched him go head to head with Kobe and Lebron, in their primes, and come out on top.

I think Pierce was underrated, but to me this stuff with LeBron was overstated. We all saw that once LeBron got great teammates Paul Pierce never won against him again lol.

I think this is about a draw though. Jimmy seems like a better floor-raiser and maybe a more impactful player all around, though his jumper is really trash these days.

Well of course because Lebron is better than Pierce. That still doesn't take away how well he performed against those guys on the biggest stages. Pierce really proved his resiliency, his heart, his skill, and his leadership during that late 2000s era. And hes got a fMVP to show for it. Jimmy Butler has never been at that level.

Jimmy was pretttyyyy incredible in the 2020 Finals. He pretty much played LeBron evenly, which isn't something I can say for anyone else besides KD, who was on a ridiculously stacked team when he did so.

Pelly24 wrote:

Stalwart wrote:

Pelly24 wrote:

I think Pierce was underrated, but to me this stuff with LeBron was overstated. We all saw that once LeBron got great teammates Paul Pierce never won against him again lol.

I think this is about a draw though. Jimmy seems like a better floor-raiser and maybe a more impactful player all around, though his jumper is really trash these days.

Well of course because Lebron is better than Pierce. That still doesn't take away how well he performed against those guys on the biggest stages. Pierce really proved his resiliency, his heart, his skill, and his leadership during that late 2000s era. And hes got a fMVP to show for it. Jimmy Butler has never been at that level.

Jimmy was pretttyyyy incredible in the 2020 Finals. He pretty much played LeBron evenly, which isn't something I can say for anyone else besides KD, who was on a ridiculously stacked team when he did so.

The Bubble league doesn't count though

Stalwart wrote:

Pelly24 wrote:

Stalwart wrote:
Well of course because Lebron is better than Pierce. That still doesn't take away how well he performed against those guys on the biggest stages. Pierce really proved his resiliency, his heart, his skill, and his leadership during that late 2000s era. And hes got a fMVP to show for it. Jimmy Butler has never been at that level.

Jimmy was pretttyyyy incredible in the 2020 Finals. He pretty much played LeBron evenly, which isn't something I can say for anyone else besides KD, who was on a ridiculously stacked team when he did so.

The Bubble league doesn't count though

Contrary to this misinformed statement...it does.

This is an interesting one. One guy overrated offensively (Jimmy) but Pierce I thought was even more overrated defensively. I think Jimmy peaked slightly higher and is the clearly superior play-maker but Pierce gives you superior durability and is an easier fit for most rosters, which actually matters to me here because neither guy is best suited as a main offensive anchor to build around. I'm probably taking Pierce in most situations here, but idk, if you can tell me I have at least a good chance of pairing Butler with an elite scoring big (AD, Dirk, Amare) then I'll go Jimmy pretty easily.

Ron Swanson wrote:This is an interesting one. One guy overrated offensively (Jimmy) but Pierce I thought was even more overrated defensively. I think Jimmy peaked slightly higher and is the clearly superior play-maker but Pierce gives you superior durability and is an easier fit for most rosters, which actually matters to me here because neither guy is best suited as a main offensive anchor to build around. I'm probably taking Pierce in most situations here, but idk, if you can tell me I have at least a good chance of pairing Butler with an elite scoring big (AD, Dirk, Amare) then I'll go Jimmy pretty easily.

I slightly disagree with the portability thing, in a way. He can't shoot so it's harder, but with that said, he's a far better playmaker and superior defender and as a scorer, he can still get you 20-22 ppg on above average efficiency, especially if he isn't the focal point of an offense. He can get buckets going to the line, cutting, hitting midranges occasionally, etc. He would be incredible with someone like Luka Doncic or Kevin Durant or Harden. A guy that can do the dirty work, be an occasional go-to scorer, run the offense and guard the other team's best player.

Ambrose wrote:

Stalwart wrote:

Pelly24 wrote:
Jimmy was pretttyyyy incredible in the 2020 Finals. He pretty much played LeBron evenly, which isn't something I can say for anyone else besides KD, who was on a ridiculously stacked team when he did so.

The Bubble league doesn't count though

Contrary to this misinformed statement...it does.

No, he’s right. The *Bubble may count historically, but you can’t with a straight face try and compare anything that happened in the *Bubble to any other season. No fans, no travel, no distractions, no home court advantage. The *Bubble deserves the biggest asterisk in the history of sports.

It's fairly close. The things that really separate them are Butler's motor and Pierce's offensively polished game. I haven't looked at the numbers, but I lean Pierce.

shakes0 wrote:

Ambrose wrote:

Stalwart wrote:
The Bubble league doesn't count though

Contrary to this misinformed statement...it does.

No, he’s right. The *Bubble may count historically, but you can’t with a straight face try and compare anything that happened in the *Bubble to any other season. No fans, no travel, no distractions, no home court advantage. The *Bubble deserves the biggest asterisk in the history of sports.

Honestly, in the face of this year's playoffs, which saw drastic injuries to like between 7 and 10 all-star/all-nba level players, I don't get how you can see this. Literally every team the Suns played in the West dealt with a disastrous injury. That Suns squad is absolutely not a finals team lol.

Jimmy didn't play so far out of his level in the bubble it shouldn't be seen as a fluke.

Pelly24 wrote:

shakes0 wrote:

Ambrose wrote:
Contrary to this misinformed statement...it does.

No, he’s right. The *Bubble may count historically, but you can’t with a straight face try and compare anything that happened in the *Bubble to any other season. No fans, no travel, no distractions, no home court advantage. The *Bubble deserves the biggest asterisk in the history of sports.

Honestly, in the face of this year's playoffs, which saw drastic injuries to like between 7 and 10 all-star/all-nba level players, I don't get how you can see this. Literally every team the Suns played in the West dealt with a disastrous injury. That Suns squad is absolutely not a finals team lol.

Jimmy didn't play so far out of his level in the bubble it shouldn't be seen as a fluke.

even further, most thinghs people atribbute to the bubble are the kind of thingh that happens every year

if 2021 injuries happened in the bubble it would be attributed to it too

falcolombardi wrote:

Pelly24 wrote:

shakes0 wrote:
No, he’s right. The *Bubble may count historically, but you can’t with a straight face try and compare anything that happened in the *Bubble to any other season. No fans, no travel, no distractions, no home court advantage. The *Bubble deserves the biggest asterisk in the history of sports.

Honestly, in the face of this year's playoffs, which saw drastic injuries to like between 7 and 10 all-star/all-nba level players, I don't get how you can see this. Literally every team the Suns played in the West dealt with a disastrous injury. That Suns squad is absolutely not a finals team lol.

Jimmy didn't play so far out of his level in the bubble it shouldn't be seen as a fluke.

even further, most thinghs people atribbute to the bubble are the kind of thingh that happens every year

if 2021 injuries happened in the bubble it would be attributed to it too

Wait, what? A 4 month layoff(entire off season) heading into the playoffs happens every year? No travel happens every year? No home court? Quarantining and isolation happens every year? Lebron calling a league wide strike in the freakin middle of the playoffs happens every year??

You're not being honest. That stuff literally never happens.

I would probably go Pierce by a hair, Jimmy's offense is a bit sketchy considering his shooting now is the worst its ever been(not counting the bubble) and it could be an exploitable problem in other playoff runs, he is the way better defender tho and I like Jimmy's regular season this year more than any Pierce year(maybe?) so again it's pretty close for me.

Stalwart wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

Pelly24 wrote:
Honestly, in the face of this year's playoffs, which saw drastic injuries to like between 7 and 10 all-star/all-nba level players, I don't get how you can see this. Literally every team the Suns played in the West dealt with a disastrous injury. That Suns squad is absolutely not a finals team lol.

Jimmy didn't play so far out of his level in the bubble it shouldn't be seen as a fluke.

even further, most thinghs people atribbute to the bubble are the kind of thingh that happens every year

if 2021 injuries happened in the bubble it would be attributed to it too

Wait, what? A 4 month layoff(entire off season) heading into the playoffs happens every year? No travel happens every year? No home court? Quarantining and isolation happens every year? Lebron calling a league wide strike in the freakin middle of the playoffs happens every year??

You're not being honest. That stuff literally never happens.

i was not clear so let me clarify

i mean the on court results that people attributed to the bubble

people were saying that bucks and clippers failure only happened because os the bubble and that made lakers path easy or that butler and miami only made the finals because the bubble or that this or that player only did well/struggl e because the bubble

basically peopke took anythingh unexpected to happen in the series on court and attributed it to the bubble environment

imagine if 2004 pistons won in a bubble environment? everyone would call it a bubble fluke

The 2021 season was way more disruptive than the bubble.

And no travel and home court advantage would actually make the basketball more pure....just because it's different mean it is inferior or non canon. I don't think people actually get what the point of an asterisk is for.