Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard

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Better peak

Nikola Jokic
21
70%
Dwight Howard
9
30%
 
Total votes: 30

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Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#1 » by durantbird » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:53 am

Who has the better peak? How close are they in terms of career?
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#2 » by Gooner » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:01 am

Defense is a massive factor for a center. Have to go with Dwight. Jokic has a lot of triple doubles, that's cute, but that's not gonna get Denver even close to winning the championship in this era where everybody puts up big numbers offensively. His defense is terrible and it's not just because of his athleticism, the effort isn't really there. Dwight gave you a better foundation to build something close to a championship team with his defense and he also scored consistently over 20 ppg in a tougher era. If Rudy Gobert is so impactful today, imagine prime Howard in a good system.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#3 » by BelgradeNugget » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:15 am

It is laughable to even try to compare MVP with Dwight. To be clear Dwight was great in his peak but nowhere near the best player in the league like Jokic was in 2021.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#4 » by No-more-rings » Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:47 pm

BelgradeNugget wrote:It is laughable to even try to compare MVP with Dwight. To be clear Dwight was great in his peak but nowhere near the best player in the league like Jokic was in 2021.

Dwight was 2nd in mvp voting and voted the 3rd best player in the league on this site in 2011. Not sure where you're getting this idea that Dwight wasn't an mvp type player, and not one of the best players in the league. Sounds like to me you're trying to re-write history. I think Jokic is better, but we aren't comparing him to chopped liver.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#5 » by BelgradeNugget » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:09 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
BelgradeNugget wrote:It is laughable to even try to compare MVP with Dwight. To be clear Dwight was great in his peak but nowhere near the best player in the league like Jokic was in 2021.

Dwight was 2nd in mvp voting and voted the 3rd best player in the league on this site in 2011. Not sure where you're getting this idea that Dwight wasn't an mvp type player, and not one of the best players in the league. Sounds like to me you're trying to re-write history. I think Jokic is better, but we aren't comparing him to chopped liver.

Jokic was 4th in MVP voting in 2019 but wasn't the best. As far as voting at this site goes you have posters like the on who was first in this discussion who would probably take Gobert in front of Jokic and that doesn't mean a thing. Fact is simple, PG13 was 3rd in MVP voting in 2019, AD was 3rd in MVP voting in 2018 but their peak was not close to Giannis, Harden, Jokic and other MVPs. Dwight was great in perfect situation in Orlando with Jemeer, Hedo, Lewis... He was in perfect situation for his skillset. He wasn't able to create perfect situation for his teammates. He wasn't able to carry team the way Jokic can. The moment when situation for Dwight changed (LA and than Houston) he wasn't half of the player he was in Orlando and he was still at his peak physically at 27 yo.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#6 » by Laimbeer » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:15 pm

Dwight was no stiff on offense at his peak. And he took some pretty mediocre Magic teams to 59 win seasons. Oddly, I think both teams regress if you swap.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#7 » by feyki » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:15 pm

Jokic is the GOAT, because he won the last mvp.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#8 » by HeartBreakKid » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:06 pm

BelgradeNugget wrote:It is laughable to even try to compare MVP with Dwight. To be clear Dwight was great in his peak but nowhere near the best player in the league like Jokic was in 2021.

uh...the only reason why Howard didn't win MVP was because his team wasn't high enough seed, otherwise he was an easy #2 in MVP voting. This post sure is bizarre

"nowhere near the best player" - if you mean that there were maybe 3 or 4 guys better than him, then sure, I guess that is nowhere near.


*notices your user name and you're a nugget fan

Makes more sense now.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#9 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:31 pm

Dwight Howard is hurt perception wise because he has hung on for a long time as a very useful role player. I think when this happens some people forget just how he was at his best.

I don't know if his best years were better than Jokic's or not. They are such different players. But Howard was absolutely an MVP caliber player in multiple seasons.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#10 » by Max123 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:36 pm

Laimbeer wrote:Dwight was no stiff on offense at his peak. And he took some pretty mediocre Magic teams to 59 win seasons. Oddly, I think both teams regress if you swap.

Is it really odd? After all, these teams have tried to build around the skillsets of Jokic and Dwight which means that when you swap them the team construction doesn’t make as much sense.


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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#11 » by BelgradeNugget » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:50 pm

feyki wrote:Jokic is the GOAT, because he won the last mvp.

No, he is just one of only 34 players in the history of the league who have won MVP. And winning 90% of first place votes, he was pretty clear choice. Giannis is one of 14 who have won multiple times. To be consider GOAT you must win it al least 4-5 times.

Jokic and Giannis are the only active MVP winners under 30. There are some great players who were never the best in the league like Ewing, Drexler, Stockton, CP3. There are some really talented young players in the league right now like Book, Trae, Zion, Mitchell, Luka, some of them even led their teams to deep playoff runs, and there is no guarantee that neither of them will ever win it.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#12 » by BelgradeNugget » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:13 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
BelgradeNugget wrote:It is laughable to even try to compare MVP with Dwight. To be clear Dwight was great in his peak but nowhere near the best player in the league like Jokic was in 2021.

uh...the only reason why Howard didn't win MVP was because his team wasn't high enough seed, otherwise he was an easy #2 in MVP voting. This post sure is bizarre

"nowhere near the best player" - if you mean that there were maybe 3 or 4 guys better than him, then sure, I guess that is nowhere near.


*notices your user name and you're a nugget fan

Makes more sense now.

OK maybe "It is laughable to even try to compare MVP with Dwight." is too strong choice of words. But here is how I see players: when the game is on the line some players can take over the game and carry their teams to wins. Those are really the best ones. Jokic can do that. Dwight never could do that. Dwight was great in great situation. After he went to LA he was far from being great. He spent 9 more seasons in the league but was never successful. Houston was better when they replaced him with Capela.
Jokic is the system. He makes players around him better. Some of the starters for Nuggets in last 5 years were Mudiay, Faired, Chandler, Harris, Crieg... The only one who was successful after leaving Nuggets is journeyman Grant if you like volume scorers on bad teams.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#13 » by jamaalstar21 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:27 pm

I find it hard to keep Magic Dwight in my mind. I have to go back and watch footage to remember those insane elevator hops and how much he owned the paint. As a pure rim deterrent, Dwight was like Ben Wallace in his ability to basically teleport himself above/in front of the rim.

Basically, SVG had a pretty easy time building a legit contender around peak Dwight. That team was completely built around him and catered to his strengths and weaknesses, but it's not like they had to go out and find perfect stars to do it. Hedo Turkoglu, Rashard Lewis and Jameer Nelson. Those are some absolute sub-all-star talents that played their role so well in Orlando, that they got temporarily upgraded to Eastern Conference all-stars (or snubs). I don't think there are that many players you can so easily build a contender around and Dwight was one of them.

Hard to compare him to Jokic. Always hard to compare defense to offense. It probably depends on what you think about Dwight's offense. He was a monster paint presence, as a lob threat, and as a guy who could muscle his way to points. He scored efficiently until his back injury. He drew a ton of fouls (but didn't knock them down quite well enough). He was an awful passer and had no range outside 3 feet. He synergized very well with on-ball players. How good Hedo and Jameer looked playing with Dwight reminds me a little bit of Sprewell and Cassel in 2004 with KG. There's tremendous value in being star level impact guy that can play with other ball handlers, and help good on-ball attackers play like very good ones. Basically I think he had a little bit of KG/Duncan value in this way.

Jokic just had one of the best offensive seasons of all-time, so if we're talking 1-year peaks, I might be inclined to choose Big Honey. But I doubt Jokic has accomplished a 3-year peak that equals Dwight's yet.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#14 » by Statlanta » Tue Sep 14, 2021 6:09 pm

Jokic. The Orlando Magic got worse as Dwight got better. That's not on Howard but I have doubts he truly had MVP impact even if the voters believed he did.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#15 » by SHAQ32 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:01 pm

Jokic's not winning MVP with LeBron at his peak. Dwight should have in 2011.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#16 » by Matt15 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:22 pm

I’d choose Dwight in 2011 over any version of Jokic mostly due to defense.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#17 » by Max123 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:52 pm

Matt15 wrote:I’d choose Dwight in 2011 over any version of Jokic mostly due to defense.

What about the offense?


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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#18 » by Clyde Frazier » Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:59 pm

Gimme Jokic, but Dwight should've won MVP in 2011.
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#19 » by mdonnelly1989 » Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:36 pm

I did a poll for Jokic V Ewing and Ewing is clearly greater than Dwight.

Very comparable defensively while Ewing was comfortably and clearly better offensively.

Ewing 94
Jokic 94
Dwight 93
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Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#20 » by Outside » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:07 am

I voted Jokic, but it's close.

Pros for Dwight:

-- MVP-caliber. May not have won, but he was top 5 four times, including second to Derrick Rose in 2011.
-- 3x DPOY.
-- Great rebounder. Led league 6x in total rebounds, 6x in defensive rebounds, once in offensive rebounds (was top 4 seven straight seasons), 5x in RPG.
-- Really good shotblocker. Led league twice in total blocks and BPG, was top 5 in adjacent seasons.
-- Took an otherwise mediocre Magic squad to the finals in 2009. If Courtney Lee makes the ATO layup at the end of regulation in game 3, Lakers probably still win the series, but it would've been interesting.
-- Despite limited offensive skills (DLOS), Orlando was able to build a title contender around his defense, ability to finish at the rim, and putbacks.
-- DLOS, was able to average a bit over 20 ppg at his peak.
-- DLOS and poor FT%, stayed within himself at his peak to be top 5 in FG% (led league in 2009-10) and top 10 in TS%.

Cons for Dwight:

-- FT%. Hack-a-Dwight was a thing.
-- Limited scoring skills. FG% plummeted outside of three feet. Required perimeter shooters for spacing
-- Poor passer/playmaker. Could've vastly increased his offensive value if he had made an effort to leverage his gravity and the team's spacing to be an offensive hub instead of a black hole.
-- Tends to pick up fouls and technicals and pouts when calls don't go his way.
-- Locker room presence/effect on team chemistry. Up to everyone how or whether to include this in the assessment.

Pros for Jokic:

-- Passing. One of the great passing centers ever, if not the GOAT.
-- Scoring. Averaged 26.4 this season, 12th in the league.
-- Efficiency. This season: 60.6 FG%, 38.8 3PT%, 86.8 FT%, 64.7 TS%, just phenomenal.
-- Range. His FGAs are spread from the basket out to the three-point line.
-- Rebounding. Not great, but good enough to average double figures. Top 10 in total, defensive, offensive, and RPG.
-- For someone who handles the ball as much as he does, his turnovers are low.
-- Has performed well in the postseason. His production picks up, and his efficiency stays high.
-- I don't know if teammates love him, but I've heard good things and haven't heard anything bad about him.

Cons for Jokic:

-- Defense. LEBRON rates him as marginally positive defensively, but center is often a position you look at to be a defensive anchor. He ain't that.
-- Post game. Only 24.4% of his shots were from 0-3 feet. Not a power player. Again, that's something you normally look for from a dominant post player, but he's not your normal post player.
-- Whines the refs a fair amount but it's not as bad a negative for him that it is for Dwight.

I'm sure there's more, but this is my usual off-the-top-of-my head take.

For Jokic, it's easy to pick his peak -- it's 2020-21. For Dwight, you sort of have to pick and choose between 2-3 years. Dwight is obviously much further into his career than Jokic, so there's more to choose from. Jokic is likely to swing the balance in his favor more over the next few seasons, assuming he keeps on a similar level, or even better. Even so, I chose Jokic, though it's really close. Dwight in Orlando was really, really good.

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