Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard

Moderators: Clyde Frazier, trex_8063, PaulieWal, Quotatious, Doctor MJ, penbeast0

Better peak

Nikola Jokic
21
70%
Dwight Howard
9
30%
 
Total votes: 30

BelgradeNugget
Pro Prospect
Posts: 863
And1: 844
Joined: Jun 16, 2018
 

Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#21 » by BelgradeNugget » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:00 am

Outside wrote:I voted Jokic, but it's close.

Pros for Dwight:

-- MVP-caliber. May not have won, but he was top 5 four times, including second to Derrick Rose in 2011.
-- 3x DPOY.
-- Great rebounder. Led league 6x in total rebounds, 6x in defensive rebounds, once in offensive rebounds (was top 4 seven straight seasons), 5x in RPG.
-- Really good shotblocker. Led league twice in total blocks and BPG, was top 5 in adjacent seasons.
-- Took an otherwise mediocre Magic squad to the finals in 2009. If Courtney Lee makes the ATO layup at the end of regulation in game 3, Lakers probably still win the series, but it would've been interesting.
-- Despite limited offensive skills (DLOS), Orlando was able to build a title contender around his defense, ability to finish at the rim, and putbacks.
-- DLOS, was able to average a bit over 20 ppg at his peak.
-- DLOS and poor FT%, stayed within himself at his peak to be top 5 in FG% (led league in 2009-10) and top 10 in TS%.

Cons for Dwight:

-- FT%. Hack-a-Dwight was a thing.
-- Limited scoring skills. FG% plummeted outside of three feet. Required perimeter shooters for spacing
-- Poor passer/playmaker. Could've vastly increased his offensive value if he had made an effort to leverage his gravity and the team's spacing to be an offensive hub instead of a black hole.
-- Tends to pick up fouls and technicals and pouts when calls don't go his way.
-- Locker room presence/effect on team chemistry. Up to everyone how or whether to include this in the assessment.

Pros for Jokic:

-- Passing. One of the great passing centers ever, if not the GOAT.
-- Scoring. Averaged 26.4 this season, 12th in the league.
-- Efficiency. This season: 60.6 FG%, 38.8 3PT%, 86.8 FT%, 64.7 TS%, just phenomenal.
-- Range. His FGAs are spread from the basket out to the three-point line.
-- Rebounding. Not great, but good enough to average double figures. Top 10 in total, defensive, offensive, and RPG.
-- For someone who handles the ball as much as he does, his turnovers are low.
-- Has performed well in the postseason. His production picks up, and his efficiency stays high.
-- I don't know if teammates love him, but I've heard good things and haven't heard anything bad about him.

Cons for Jokic:

-- Defense. LEBRON rates him as marginally positive defensively, but center is often a position you look at to be a defensive anchor. He ain't that.
-- Post game. Only 24.4% of his shots were from 0-3 feet. Not a power player. Again, that's something you normally look for from a dominant post player, but he's not your normal post player.
-- Whines the refs a fair amount but it's not as bad a negative for him that it is for Dwight.

I'm sure there's more, but this is my usual off-the-top-of-my head take.

For Jokic, it's easy to pick his peak -- it's 2020-21. For Dwight, you sort of have to pick and choose between 2-3 years. Dwight is obviously much further into his career than Jokic, so there's more to choose from. Jokic is likely to swing the balance in his favor more over the next few seasons, assuming he keeps on a similar level, or even better. Even so, I chose Jokic, though it's really close. Dwight in Orlando was really, really good.


Great analysis, I would like to add some things.

"Cons for Dwight:-- Locker room presence/effect on team chemistry. Up to everyone how or whether to include this in the assessment." - I think this is an important part of evaluating a player because if you are chemistry killer it reflects on team success, which is the point of the game after all. That is the reason why I always argue against notion that Boogie was good player.

"Cons for Jokic:-- Post game. Only 24.4% of his shots were from 0-3 feet. Not a power player. Again, that's something you normally look for from a dominant post player, but he's not your normal post player." - Jokic is one of the most efficient scorers in the league in post-ups. He was second behind Embiid with Embiid getting all those foul calls. Thing with his post-ups is that he likes to use them to force doubleteams so he can assist teammates for easy dunks or wide open 3s.
User avatar
feyki
Starter
Posts: 2,065
And1: 312
Joined: Aug 08, 2016
     

Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#22 » by feyki » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:28 am

BelgradeNugget wrote:
feyki wrote:Jokic is the GOAT, because he won the last mvp.

No, he is just one of only 34 players in the history of the league who have won MVP. And winning 90% of first place votes, he was pretty clear choice. Giannis is one of 14 who have won multiple times. To be consider GOAT you must win it al least 4-5 times.

Jokic and Giannis are the only active MVP winners under 30. There are some great players who were never the best in the league like Ewing, Drexler, Stockton, CP3. There are some really talented young players in the league right now like Book, Trae, Zion, Mitchell, Luka, some of them even led their teams to deep playoff runs, and there is no guarantee that neither of them will ever win it.


No, he just has been the best impact player in the season. And there were a few names better than his regular season mvp level impact in the playoffs.

2011 MVP was Rose but he was not even a top 5 player in that year. MVP award means a player worth as top 5, at least. Don't need to overestimate it. It does not give any wild card a player for the individual player rankings.
Image
“The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot.”
BelgradeNugget
Pro Prospect
Posts: 863
And1: 844
Joined: Jun 16, 2018
 

Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#23 » by BelgradeNugget » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:00 pm

feyki wrote:
BelgradeNugget wrote:
feyki wrote:Jokic is the GOAT, because he won the last mvp.

No, he is just one of only 34 players in the history of the league who have won MVP. And winning 90% of first place votes, he was pretty clear choice. Giannis is one of 14 who have won multiple times. To be consider GOAT you must win it al least 4-5 times.

Jokic and Giannis are the only active MVP winners under 30. There are some great players who were never the best in the league like Ewing, Drexler, Stockton, CP3. There are some really talented young players in the league right now like Book, Trae, Zion, Mitchell, Luka, some of them even led their teams to deep playoff runs, and there is no guarantee that neither of them will ever win it.


No, he just has been the best impact player in the season. And there were a few names better than his regular season mvp level impact in the playoffs.

2011 MVP was Rose but he was not even a top 5 player in that year. MVP award means a player worth as top 5, at least. Don't need to overestimate it. It does not give any wild card a player for the individual player rankings.

Giannis had great impact in the playoff an that is it, unless you count some "first round exit superstars". Jokic winning 90% first place votes, with his historic season in every advanced stat, leading all players, point to the fact that he was the best player in RS in 2020-2021
User avatar
feyki
Starter
Posts: 2,065
And1: 312
Joined: Aug 08, 2016
     

Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#24 » by feyki » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:59 pm

BelgradeNugget wrote:
feyki wrote:
BelgradeNugget wrote:No, he is just one of only 34 players in the history of the league who have won MVP. And winning 90% of first place votes, he was pretty clear choice. Giannis is one of 14 who have won multiple times. To be consider GOAT you must win it al least 4-5 times.

Jokic and Giannis are the only active MVP winners under 30. There are some great players who were never the best in the league like Ewing, Drexler, Stockton, CP3. There are some really talented young players in the league right now like Book, Trae, Zion, Mitchell, Luka, some of them even led their teams to deep playoff runs, and there is no guarantee that neither of them will ever win it.


No, he just has been the best impact player in the season. And there were a few names better than his regular season mvp level impact in the playoffs.

2011 MVP was Rose but he was not even a top 5 player in that year. MVP award means a player worth as top 5, at least. Don't need to overestimate it. It does not give any wild card a player for the individual player rankings.

Giannis had great impact in the playoff an that is it, unless you count some "first round exit superstars". Jokic winning 90% first place votes, with his historic season in every advanced stat, leading all players, point to the fact that he was the best player in RS in 2020-2021


Giannis, Kawhi, Doncic, Durant, even when healthy Davis had higher impact. You're just looking at the "legacy" .
Image
“The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot.”
BelgradeNugget
Pro Prospect
Posts: 863
And1: 844
Joined: Jun 16, 2018
 

Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#25 » by BelgradeNugget » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:45 pm

feyki wrote:
BelgradeNugget wrote:
feyki wrote:
No, he just has been the best impact player in the season. And there were a few names better than his regular season mvp level impact in the playoffs.

2011 MVP was Rose but he was not even a top 5 player in that year. MVP award means a player worth as top 5, at least. Don't need to overestimate it. It does not give any wild card a player for the individual player rankings.

Giannis had great impact in the playoff an that is it, unless you count some "first round exit superstars". Jokic winning 90% first place votes, with his historic season in every advanced stat, leading all players, point to the fact that he was the best player in RS in 2020-2021


Giannis, Kawhi, Doncic, Durant, even when healthy Davis had higher impact. You're just looking at the "legacy" .

No, Doncic is out of conversation before he makes it out of first round. BTW Jokic had much better stats, and bigger impact this year in the first round than Luka. If you were talking about Trae Young, we could have conversation, but Jokic is still better.
Now, are you talking about this year or "legacy" because you mentioned healthy Davis? IF you are talking about "legacy" Jokic is one of the best PO performer in league, and this year was not much different.
User avatar
feyki
Starter
Posts: 2,065
And1: 312
Joined: Aug 08, 2016
     

Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#26 » by feyki » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:01 pm

Hmm, either best player in the 2021 was Trae Young or Jokic? What could I say after this?
Image
“The idea is not to block every shot. The idea is to make your opponent believe that you might block every shot.”
BelgradeNugget
Pro Prospect
Posts: 863
And1: 844
Joined: Jun 16, 2018
 

Re: Nikola Jokic vs Dwight Howard 

Post#27 » by BelgradeNugget » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:08 pm

feyki wrote:Hmm, either best player in the 2021 was Trae Young or Jokic? What could I say after this?

Unlike Luka, with Trae you could make some argument, bad one, that he was among best POs performer.
But I undrestand Luka is GOAT because...well...something

Return to Player Comparisons