[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 10:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

sansterre · Post #2 » by **sansterre** » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:05 pm

1. ‘09 LeBron James

This may be the best individual season ever. A double-digit RAPM coupled to the highest OBPM ever posted? And in the playoffs he got even better!? We’re talking 37.9% of his team’s shots on +7.4% rTS against the #1, #5 and #11 shooting defenses in the league (better shooting defenses than Jordan faced in any year where he made it past the first round)! 14% of available rebounds, assisted on 40% of his teammates’ shots on Jordanesque turnover rates? I have enormous respect for Kareem’s postseasons in ‘74 and ‘77. But they don’t touch this for me. There simply aren’t metrics that don’t love this season. And I don’t care that he couldn’t get past the Magic. At all.

So now it’s between ‘74 Kareem and ‘12 LeBron. Regular season offense is clearly in LeBron’s favor. DBPM likes LeBron’s defense more, which is a great example of why it’s stupid. Yay to ‘12 LeBron’s defense, but Kareem was a 7’3” big that led the best defense in the league and best shooting defense by a mile. I still lean LeBron here (and RAPM loves the season too). But in the postseason Kareem’s offense skyrockets to comparable to James’. And Kareem was doing it while dragging a seriously thin supporting cast. Ultimately I feel like I’d want to give this to Kareem unless I thought that proximity to the over-expansion in ‘71 and ‘72 diminished the quality of the season enough . . . and I’m not sure I’m there.

2. ‘74 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

How about 2012 LeBron vs 1977 Kareem? This is basically the exact same comparison as last time, save that Kareem may have been better in the playoffs but on a smaller sample size. Maybe I’m insane but I’m completely in love with Kareem throwing down on one of the best defensive centers ever with an ATG-level series. I’m going ‘77 Kareem here, but maybe that’s just because I’m a romantic.

3. ‘77 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

How about 1971 Kareem? Now we’re at a different problem. 1971 Kareem was one of the best regular seasons *ever* but in a league that was suffering from over-expansion. And his production fell off considerably in the playoffs (down to only “really damned good”, but still). Given the expansion issues, I’m going LeBron here.

4. ‘12 LeBron James

How about ‘71 Kareem against ‘13 LeBron? I see ‘13 as being really close to ‘12 and I don’t see the differences as being big enough to change my mind from before.

5. ‘13 LeBron James

How about against 2010 LeBron? It was a regular season arguably better than 2009, which is saying something. And, frankly, he was really good in the postseason. 31% of his team’s shots against 27.6% from Kareem, +7.7% rTS vs +6.9% rTS from Kareem (adjusted for opponent). I absolutely can see an argument that 2010 LeBron was comparable to 1971 Kareem. The question is: which of these players has the bigger asterisk? Kareem played in an over-expanded league, but LeBron has some questions about his performance against the Celtics in the second round (particularly a weirdly bad game 5). The weird thing is that if you average all of his performance out he still looks like a freaking stud (averaging a BPM over +9 for the series). It’s just so hard to compare; you have Kareem vaporizing the league with a great team behind him, and you’ve got LeBron dragging a sorry supporting cast to face a veteran ensemble like the Celtics . . . Ugh. I’ll give this one to ‘71 Kareem but give ‘13 James the nod over ‘72 Kareem.

6. ‘71 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

7. ‘10 LeBron James

So now we have ‘72 Kareem against ‘14 LeBron. Kareem was almost certainly better in the regular season (6k extra minutes goes a long way) but LeBron was no slouch. And in the playoffs Kareem’s shooting dropped a ridiculous 11.41% after adjusting for opposition, while LeBron submitted an outstanding playoff run (31.6% of his team’s shots on +14.4% rTS). Especially given that Kareem benefited from a massively expanded league in the regular season, I feel comfortable giving this to ‘14 LeBron.

8. ‘14 LeBron James

How about 2017 LeBron? Now ‘72 Kareem played 8k more minutes in the regular season and LeBron looked only really good. Massive win in the regular season to Kareem. But in the playoffs LeBron leads one of the best playoff offenses ever and comes out looking quite good. Where do you split this? Kareem’s playoffs were still good, but hardly ATG level, so LeBron wins postseason pretty handily. I guess I just have a hard time picking Kareem’s 1972 with his playoff struggles and with the expansion issues.

9. ‘17 LeBron James

Up next I have 2016 James and I’m going to go the exact same way for the exact same reason.

10. ‘16 LeBron James

2020 LeBron vs 1972 Kareem? This is even dumber. LeBron plays a shortened season minus a step, but throws together another outstanding playoff run (if slightly compromised by the weirdly volatile bubble situation). I feel like I have to go ‘72 Kareem here. If I don’t I’m basically saying that playoffs > all.

11. ‘72 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Which leaves us with 2020 LeBron against 1976 Kareem. At this point we’re in the VORP era pretty comfortably and they look equally good in the regular season (but with Kareem playing an extra seven minutes a game, so he definitely gets it). But then we have ‘20 LeBron’s masterful playoffs against Kareem’s complete lack of a playoffs. But I’m not holding that against Kareem too much; he was the only player on that roster with a BPM above zero (32 year-old Gail Goodrich was the only other player with an OBPM above zero). It was one of the worst supporting casts that any ATG player has ever had. And we *do* know that when Kareem made the playoffs (‘74, ‘77) he was really damned good. And we also know that ‘76 Kareem was the best player in the league by a mile. And you can’t even say that this was expansion-driven because ‘77 Kareem dominated the league by almost as much. I feel like, given the context, I’m giving this to ‘76 Kareem. 2020 LeBron may not have been the best player on his own team (but probably was); I’m picking the guy who had *double* the regular season VORP of the third best player in the league.

12. ‘76 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Phew. Writing all these out is hard work! Two great players - I tell ya, LeBron seems to have an endless number of really, really, really good seasons.

Odinn21 · Post #3 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:16 pm

sansterre wrote:...

I'll have a slightly different rankings but thanks for this. Wish I could and1 more than once.

sansterre · Post #4 » by **sansterre** » Fri Sep 17, 2021 2:17 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
sansterre wrote:...

I'll have a slightly different rankings but thanks for this. Wish I could and1 more than once.

I'm sure you do! I look forward to reading everybody else's and changing mine if needed.

No-more-rings · Post #5 » by **No-more-rings** » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:25 pm

I find this one very interesting, and aside from MJ vs Lebron probably the most intriguing of all. Two guys who typically battle for goat supremacy. I'll get a list up, not sure I'll be able to defend it that well though. I am pretty comfortable with Lebron being the better prime player, not a large gap obviously but I'm pretty confident in Lebron's passing/point guard abilities kind of doing it for me. Kareem was the more impactful defender, not sure it's a monstrous gap though. I don't think there's much difference in their scoring that can probably be called a wash, they just operate differently. Lebron can score from more areas on the court, that has to hold some water imo.

70sFan · Post #6 » by **70sFan** » Fri Sep 17, 2021 5:50 pm

I hope this thread will give us a closer look on Kareem's GOAT case. I don't think he looks unfavorably at all by this criteria.

I don't have my list finished yet but I will try to compile it tomorrow.

Odinn21 · Post #7 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 17, 2021 6:43 pm

Well, for the goat prime, I see 4 major candidates; LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell.
This is the first comparison between any 2. We'll see how it'll go.

I'll keep watching some full games to see if I should change my top 7 season selections for each player as we go. But I established a baseline for them in the 1st round of comparisons.

Top 7 seasons for LeBron James;
2012
2013
2009
2016
2014
2010
2011/2017/2020

Top 7 seasons for Kareem Abdul-Jabbar;
1977
1974
1971
1976
1972
1980
1979

These are the seasons I had for LeBron and Kareem.

I have James' 2012, 2013, 2009 pretty close to each other. I mean, it's almost a 3 way tie between them.
In terms of the nature of the seasons, Kareem's 1977 and LeBron's 2009 are the most comparable seasons.
I know LeBron basically broke box metrics in 2009, especially in the playoffs. James had 39/8/8 (+8.3 rts) performance against the Magic, but the main thing is the Magic weren't that good. They were quite good, they were also a mismatch for the Cavs, that's how they won the series, but the Cavs were 1 buzzer beater away from losing that series in 5. Considering how much flak Kareem gets for the Lakers getting swept by the Blazers (a truly championship level team, clearly better than the Magic) in 1977, I pretty much doubt people would heroise that much James' performance if it wasn't involved with the James name.
To top all of that, Kareem actually made the Lakers won a series which they should've lost and he went 37/19/4/4 (+12.6 rts) in that series.

Even with all these, I think the top 5 is a tier of their own. Then 1971 is on an island by itself. Then it's James' 2010 + lower effort rs seasons as 2014 and onwards vs. Kareem's high effort rs seasons in 1972/1976 and also Kareem's lower effort rs seasons in 1979/1980.

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My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. 2012 LeBron James
3. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. 2013 LeBron James
5. 2009 LeBron James
6. 1971 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. 2016 LeBron James
8. 1976 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
9. 1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
10. 2014 LeBron James
11. 2010 LeBron James
12. 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

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Even though it's a pretty tiny gap, I have 1977 Kareem as the #1 season between the two but the real challenge was 1974 Kareem vs. 2009/2013 LeBron.
Kareem's 1974 isn't as glamorous as LeBron's 2009/2013 for reg. season performances. But Kareem's postseason carry job / one-man army was more impactful and more impressive. The Bucks didn't have Lucius Allen in the playoffs, Oscar wasn't healthy. It was basically Kareem + Bobby D without a depth in roster going against all. I mean people know how LeBron made the Cavs look competent in 2009 but that roster was deep compared to what the Bucks had to play with in 1974 playoffs. Cornell Warner wasn't a player you'd want to see him playing 30+ minutes a game.

homecourtloss · Post #8 » by **homecourtloss** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:24 am

‪1. '09 LeBron — the impact numbers in both RS and PS and the carry job of a that cast to 66 wins and an 8+ SRS..‬
‪2. ‬1977 Kareem: — peak offensive Kareem who was still impactful defensively. The efficacy of his scoring offense with such little variance from game to game probably makes it the most reliable scoring offense of any peak. It’s such a shame he played with such a terrible roster.
‪3. '12 LeBron — high motor impact throughout RS and PS ‬
‪4. ‬1974 Kareem — Better on defense than in 1977 though maybe less polished on offense. But I go back to the little variance in scoring from game to game. You knew how he was going to score but you couldn’t do anything about it, which engendered GOATish longevity. It’s interesting because James’ longevity’s catalyst is his ability to adjust his game in so many ways and roster constructions in vastly different playing style eras, which is impressive, while Kareem’s is that there is no answer to him regardless of playing era. It’s interesting that I wound up picking three non-title years as his peaks.
5. ‘13 LeBron — same as ‘12, 27 game win streak, playoffs impact metrics not as good
6. ‪‘16 LeBron — Regular season not as good but highest possible level vs. 73 win team ‬
7. ‪ ‬1972 Kareem —great regular season, a better player than in 1971, ran into a GOATish team
8. ‪ ‘17 LeBron — Same as above, offensive mastery of game ‬
9. 1971 Kareem
10. ‪‘10 LeBron — Don’t feel right placing him this far down since metrics close to 2009 metrics but playoffs not as subli‬me
11. 1976 Kareem — know there’s no post season here due to playoff forms true le but he couldn’t be far off from 197‪7‬
12. ‪20 LeBron — highly underrated season‬

O_6 · Post #9 » by **O_6** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:37 am

So in my opinion, 2012 LeBron was the guy who sacrificed hard on his overall game in order to become a true GOAT tier candidate.

The LeBron from Game 6 vs. the Celtics is the Greatest basketball player who ever existed. I say this as an MJ GOAT guy. But that was LeBron at his peak jump shot hitting nasty mofo action, and when he can do that on top of everything else he does that makes him play at a higher level than anyone has ever played. MJ just far more consistently hit a level just below that and maybe above that in terms of pure scoring.

However, 2012 LeBron was the most “situational” version of that ‘09-‘18 player that we saw. He played a lesser role than any other year in that span.

LeBron’s PGA in 2012 was the 2nd worst of his career. The only one lower was last year in 45 games with the Lakers. Points generated off assists. That’s one of Bron’s specialty’s and he did it less often than ever pretty much in his “peak” year of 2012. His passing led to 400+ more points in the 2013 regular season.

LeBron could be limited in both of those years, however him having a hotter playoff run doesn’t make me think 2012>2013.

2013 LeBron is the best NBA player I’ve been alive enough to see. I was too young for first 3-peat MJ, who I rank above LeBron, but that version of LeBron in 2013 was the best interior scoring wing of all-time while being a GOAT tier passer and 40% 3pt shooter and DPOY caliber forward. He was absurd.

With 2013 Wade being far worse than 2012 Wade in the playoffs, I give the edge to 2013 LeBron as the best version of Bron all things considered. I know it wasn’t a fire playoff run, but never had a player been more complete than 2013 LeBron AND he carried their squad to a ring. Even in the Spurs series people call him out on, he still played HUGE to win it. Legendary talent. Most complete season in NBA history since ‘91 MJ. He just killed it. 2013 LeBron is the best season either of these players had.

Dutchball97 · Post #10 » by **Dutchball97** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:00 am

1. LeBron James, 2012
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1977
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1974
4. LeBron James, 2013
5. LeBron James, 2009
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1971
7. LeBron James, 2016
8. LeBron James, 2017
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1972
10. LeBron James, 2010
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 1980
12. LeBron James, 2018

It is clear both these guys have amazing primes as 2014 for LeBron and 1979 and 1973 for Kareem didn't make the cut this time while doing so against Duncan and Shaq respectively. I think the top half of my list is pretty standard with the bottom half maybe looking a bit off to people who put heavier emphasis on the regular season but I stand by my opinion of LeBron being at his best in the play-offs from 2016-2018 even though he coasted in the regular season. I'm busy with assignments this weekend but I'll try to give a bit more explanation on the individual rankings of the seasons if I can make some time.

70sFan · Post #11 » by **70sFan** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:28 am

Alright, let's remind the order for top seasons.

LeBron:

2012
2009
2013
2016
2014
2017
2010
2018
2020

Reasoning:

Spoiler:

It's very hard to pick between 2009 and 2012 for James best season. I picked 2012 mostly because of stylistic reasons - James became better post player and off-ball threat than ever before in that season. Unlike a lot of people, I also don't see the extra weight as a concern for James. His size allowed him to dominate big lineups through sheer strength and athleticism. 2009 is up there (amazing defensive season, one of his best) but I think that his GOAT-level postseason run had a bit more "luck" in there due to James long midrange shooting.

The next one is 2013 and I have to admit - it's my favorite James version ever in terms of RS play. One of the rare "perfect" MVP campaigns in NBA history. I have concerns about his play against San Antonio though, he was wildly inconsistent in the finals.

2016 is next for me, I have it over 2014 and 2017 because of higher effort on defensive end. I know that 2014>2017 isn't popular across the board, but I always felt that James scoring repertoire was at his absolute best in 2014. He also played more without the ball, showing abilities he rarely had chances to show. He played on far worse team than in 2017 though, so people think he underperformed. Believe me - I was scared of him like never before in before 2014 finals.

I might underrate 2010, it's one of his finest RS performances. I simply struggle to weight his injury in playoffs, along with strong evidences that he didn't care about Cavs anymore and wanted to leave. Can't blame him (he was in terrible situation), but it affected his performance.

2018 is one of the greatest offensive postseason runs ever. I can't find words to describe his effort to carry horrible Cavs team through the (admit it, weak but still) Eastern Conference just to put up one of the best finals games ever in game one. Unfortunately, he was also bad defensively in RS and he didn't put much effort as a whole. On top of that, the injury in the finals also counts for something - though it's not a major thing.

I have 2020 last among top tier seasons (just beating 2011 and 2015), because James didn't have to do that much throughout the season and he played relatively weak competition in the playoffs. When I watch both versions, I can't pick 2020 over 2018 - even with huge improvement on defensive end.

Kareem:

1977
1974
1971/1972
1976
1980
1979
1973
1970

Reasoning:

Spoiler:

My first try on the list:

1. 1977 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - you all know that Kareem is my GOAT and it's not only related to his longevity. 1977 is one of the greatest carry-jobs in NBA history and his postseason run is on par with any of James. Why 1977 over 2009? I think that Kareem's playoff performance was less related to variance ("luck" in shooting) and was more repetitve. Is it fair? I don't know, but I do prefer Kareem's skillset and ceilling raising ability over 2009 James.

2. 2012 LeBron James - unreal postseason run, James dominated his competiton through sheer physicality. I've never seen James being so dominant and focused before or since.

3. 2009 LeBron James - very, very tough choice between 2009 vs 1974. As high as I am on this season, it's possible that I may underrate it still.

4. 1974 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - his second best postseason run, as you know I prefer Kareem's two-way impact over 2013 James offensive brilliance. That said, it's extremely close. I picked 2009 over that because I think that James had more impressive RS.

5. 1972 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - I know, his postseason wasn't on GOAT level, but neither was 2013 James and Kareem faced even better team in WCF with more injured roster. I can't even imagine what he'd have done to injured 1972 Knicks frontcourt, it would be a massacre.

6. 2013 LeBron James - a bit better RS than 1971 Kareem in my opinion, comparable postseason run against better competition overall.

7. 1971 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - I think that sophomore Kareem still didn't reach his prime on offense, though he was already amazing on both ends of the floor. He showed great scoring resiliance against top tier positional competition, but Bucks overall faced weak teams (Warriors, injured Lakers and injured Bullets).

8. 2016 LeBron James - I can't take a season without postseason run over someone who reached GOAT level in the finals. This season could be higher with more impressive RS, but it was good enough to gain him 8th spot.

9. 1976 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - I don't think James was good enough defensively in 2014 or 2017 to pick him over two-way monster who basically reached his peak in 1976. Such a shame that Lakers missed playoffs because of stupid format, this season could be way higher on this list with long playoffs run.

10. 2014 LeBron James - arguably the best offensive season from LeBron. It just has to be included in top 10.

11. 1980 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - ATG postseason run, truly magnificent offensive performance against the best defenses in the league. I prefer Kareem's RS performance over 2017 James and I don't think LeBron was any better in playoffs.

12. 2017 LeBron James - you know how ridiculous the comparison is when you see 2017 James last. To be honest, it might be the closest comparsion in the whole project.

HM: 2010 James and 1973 Kareem - both amazing RS performances with weak postseasons. I struggle with these seasons because they went down on my ranking because of small playoffs sample. I wonder how consistent my criteria truly are, I hope that someone else can help me with that. I'd probably go with 2010 James next if I had to choose.

1979 vs 2018 is also a good debate, but their RS aren't strong enough to reach top 12.

Do you think that my list isn't objective enough? Did I make Kareem too much credit?

homecourtloss · Post #12 » by **homecourtloss** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:45 pm

70sFan wrote:
12. 2017 LeBron James - you know how ridiculous the comparison is when you see 2017 James last. To be honest, it might be the closest comparsion in the whole project.

HM: 2010 James and 1973 Kareem - both amazing RS performances with weak postseasons. I struggle with these seasons because they went down on my ranking because of small playoffs sample. I wonder how consistent my criteria truly are, I hope that someone else can help me with that. I'd probably go with 2010 James next if I had to choose.

1979 vs 2018 is also a good debate, but their RS aren't strong enough to reach top 12.

Do you think that my list isn't objective enough? Did I make Kareem too much credit?

13-18 would be interesting between these two. :lol:

Also, in this very thread and in the Peaks thread, there are very strong cases for 2009, 2012, and 2013 being peak James, with good arguments about peak play for 2016 and peak offense in 2017 if disregarding RS coasting, and of course 2018 playoffs offense. And then there’s peak playmaking in 2020 with some of his best defensive metrics and a monster playoff run. Obviously it’s an amazing case for James that there are these possible peaks 10+ seasons apart in wildly different play style eras, but I think people would be more inclined to think of him as GOAT if he had a season in which everything came together in one season.

70sFan wrote:It's very hard to pick between 2009 and 2012 for James best season. I picked 2012 mostly because of stylistic reasons - James became better post player and off-ball threat than ever before in that season.

2016 is next for me, I have it over 2014 and 2017 because of higher effort on defensive end. I know that 2014>2017 isn't popular across the board, but I always felt that James scoring repertoire was at his absolute best in 2014. He also played more without the ball, showing abilities he rarely had chances to show. He played on far worse team than in 2017 though, so people think he underperformed. Believe me - I was scared of him like never before in before 2014 finals.

What’s interesting about James is that he would show new wrinkles to his game every year but he wouldn’t go back to those new wrinkles the next season which is interesting. The bolded hints at these wrinkles, i.e., little runners in 2012 and 2014 that were highly effective, post play from the right block and left handed finishes turning into the lane in 2014, etc., and it’s a shame because I think it would add his ability to effect winning margins, but for whatever reason, he goes with something new.

falcolombardi · Post #13 » by **falcolombardi** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:02 pm

i think lebron doesnt have a signature year narratively more than level of play wise

2012 is as dominant as it gets with ring, mvp, post season dominance amd even a Olympic gold cause why not

but the "easy" victory in the finals (it was way closer than 4-1 suggests) and okc being dismissed because of inexperience (despite dispatching a championship level spurs) go against that narratively

2013 is just as good but the fact his team was perceived to be a big favorite over the underdog spurs yet was much worse thsn on paper after wade injury goes against him
the ray allen shot is also used permanently as a black Mark against him since he was not the one who made the buzzer beater

2009 was as dominant as it gets but lacked the team success

while for kareem side his 1980 year gets underated because of magic getting the finals mvp which ks correlated by most to him "being the man"

1976 is a more Extreme version of 2009 problem, absolute dominance wasted by weaker team

etc

Narigo · Post #14 » by **Narigo** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 5:06 pm

1.2013 LeBron- Best version in my IMO. He was pretty much unguardable. His shot was automatic from both mid-range and the 3-point point line. He was just as athletic as his earlier version. Had a solid post game His defense was very good. His postseason was not as good as 09 or 12 but I think it was due to fact that his teammate Wade was hurting the spacing a bit.
2.2012 LeBron- Developed a post-game and started to have a bit of polish to his game. Not far off from 2013 LeBron James
3.2009 LeBron- Statistically speaking, this is the best version of LeBron James. Probably his best overall season on the defensive end. But
still a bit raw on offense.
4.1977 Kareem - best offensive version of Kareem while playing solid D
5.1976 Kareem -Gets too flak for missing the PS. Kareem in his first season in LA had a higher motor on defense, rim protection, and rebounding than his subsequent seasons.
6.1971 Kareem
7.2010 LeBron- Same as 2009 LeBron but a lil worse in the RS+PS.
8.2016 LeBron
9.1974 Kareem
10.1972 Kareem- Both 72 and 73 versions would have been higher if he played better in the playoffs. Statistically, though this is probably is the best regular season
11.2014 LeBron-IMO, this is the best offensive version of LeBron. Unfortunately, his motor on D fell off a bit.
12.2017 LeBron

Odinn21 · Post #15 » by **Odinn21** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:00 pm

O_6 wrote:However, 2012 LeBron was the most “situational” version of that ‘09-‘18 player that we saw. He played a lesser role than any other year in that span.

Are you saying that 2012 was the most off-ball season we saw from James? Because neither of James' role in general and output looked like "a lesser role" compared to any other season.

O_6 wrote:LeBron’s PGA in 2012 was the 2nd worst of his career. The only one lower was last year in 45 games with the Lakers. Points generated off assists. That’s one of Bron’s specialty’s and he did it less often than ever pretty much in his “peak” year of 2012. His passing led to 400+ more points in the 2013 regular season.

I mean this is not entirely levelled field to compare though, no?
The Heat started to play significantly different in 2012-13 season with heavier fast break and defense focus and in terms of team's ball movement structure, James did not have a down season in 2011-12 in this regard.

1317 of 2446 field goals the Heat made in 2012 rs were scored on assists (53.84%). Those assists led to 2945 points 45.31% of team total.
1890 of 3148 field goals the Heat made in 2012 rs were scored on assists (60.04%). Those assists led to 4401 points, 52.17% of team total.

James had
387 assists in 2012 rs which was 29.38% of team's assist total. His assists led to 872 points, 29.61% of total points scored on assists.
551 assists in 2013 rs which was 29.15% of team's assist total. His assists led to 1298 points, 29.49% of total points scored on assists.

Pretty much identical.

Also, it looks like you're missing the fact that 2012 rs had 16 less games than a normal rs. Even if you don't look at change in team's ast structure, adjusting for playtime would reduce that 400 pga gap mark to under 200 pga.

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Postseason numbers;

402 of 804 field goals the Heat made in 2012 ps were scored on assists (50.00%). Those assists led to 936 points 41.80% of team total.
473 of 824 field goals the Heat made in 2013 ps were scored on assists (57.40%). Those assists led to 1103 points, 49.37% of team total.

James had
129 assists in 2012 ps which was 32.09% of team's assist total. His assists led to 309 points, 33.01% of total points scored on assists.
152 assists in 2013 ps which was 32.14% of team's assist total. His assists led to 369 points, 33.45% of total points scored on assists.

Again, nearly identical.

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falcolombardi wrote:but the "easy" victory in the finals (it was way closer than 4-1 suggests) and okc being dismissed because of inexperience (despite dispatching a championship level spurs) go against that narratively

It'll be an interesting to say because there's not many things overlook in James' career. But if there's one, at least underappreciated, it's 2012 Finals series performance.

falcolombardi · Post #16 » by **falcolombardi** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:15 pm

a good comparision to lebron 2012 finals is jordan 1991 finals

by all métrics okc was a comparable at least team to 91 lakers, healthier even too

but since it was a young and less experienced team compared to the magic led lakers it is much less valued even when both were 4-1 wins

70sFan · Post #17 » by **70sFan** » Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:06 pm

homecourtloss wrote:13-18 would be interesting between these two.

Nobody could beat them in terms of top 18 seasons ever.

Also, in this very thread and in the Peaks thread, there are very strong cases for 2009, 2012, and 2013 being peak James, with good arguments about peak play for 2016 and peak offense in 2017 if disregarding RS coasting, and of course 2018 playoffs offense. And then there’s peak playmaking in 2020 with some of his best defensive metrics and a monster playoff run. Obviously it’s an amazing case for James that there are these possible peaks 10+ seasons apart in wildly different play style eras, but I think people would be more inclined to think of him as GOAT if he had a season in which everything came together in one season.

That's probable, though to be fair LeBron is not the only one who has this concern. Very few players actually peaked overall in all aspects during one season (Shaq is a good example of that phenomena).

What’s interesting about James is that he would show new wrinkles to his game every year but he wouldn’t go back to those new wrinkles the next season which is interesting. The bolded hints at these wrinkles, i.e., little runners in 2012 and 2014 that were highly effective, post play from the right block and left handed finishes turning into the lane in 2014, etc., and it’s a shame because I think it would add his ability to effect winning margins, but for whatever reason, he goes with something new.

Yeah, sometimes I don't get it sometimes. It's not really a criticism of James, because he's GOAT-level player offensively anyway. I just think that he'd be even better had he not retire some of his moves from Miami in Cleveland.

I still struggle to pick a better and more skilled offensive version of James between 2014 and 2018.

Dutchball97 · Post #18 » by **Dutchball97** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 6:19 am

70sFan wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:13-18 would be interesting between these two.

Nobody could beat them in terms of top 18 seasons ever.

I honestly think MJ would still take that. His 9 seasons from 88-98 are at least competitive with Kareem and LeBron's 9 best seasons and at least in my opinion would probably win out due to more consistent deep post-season runs than Kareem and less disappointing regular seasons than LeBron.

Top 20 is probably the tipping point as Kareem and LeBron would at that point both have more seasons there than MJ.

70sFan · Post #19 » by **70sFan** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:22 am

Dutchball97 wrote:
70sFan wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:13-18 would be interesting between these two.

Nobody could beat them in terms of top 18 seasons ever.

I honestly think MJ would still take that. His 9 seasons from 88-98 are at least competitive with Kareem and LeBron's 9 best seasons and at least in my opinion would probably win out due to more consistent deep post-season runs than Kareem and less disappointing regular seasons than LeBron.

Top 20 is probably the tipping point as Kareem and LeBron would at that point both have more seasons there than MJ.

Well, you know that I'm higher on Kareem than Jordan. We will see in the actual project :wink:

Dutchball97 · Post #20 » by **Dutchball97** » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:43 am

70sFan wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
70sFan wrote:Nobody could beat them in terms of top 18 seasons ever.

I honestly think MJ would still take that. His 9 seasons from 88-98 are at least competitive with Kareem and LeBron's 9 best seasons and at least in my opinion would probably win out due to more consistent deep post-season runs than Kareem and less disappointing regular seasons than LeBron.

Top 20 is probably the tipping point as Kareem and LeBron would at that point both have more seasons there than MJ.

Well, you know that I'm higher on Kareem than Jordan. We will see in the actual project

It is fun that there are still some closely contested matches coming up for sure. I don't think MJ vs Kareem and LeBron especially is a done deal yet but I do think you're both the highest on Kareem and lowest on MJ out of the people who voted so far. You were the only one to have 2 Kareem seasons ahead of 2000 Shaq, as well as being the only one to have 2 Wilt seasons ahead of 91 MJ.