[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Magic Johnson

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:11 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 10:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

No-more-rings · Post #2 » by **No-more-rings** » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:03 pm

1. 2003 Duncan
2. 2002 Duncan
3. 1987 Magic
4. 1990 Magic
5. 1986 Magic
6. 2001 Duncan
7. 2007 Duncan
8. 1989 Magic
9. 1988 Magic
10. 1985 Magic
11. 2005 Duncan
12. 1991 Magic

Djoker · Post #3 » by **Djoker** » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:49 am

I've been inactive in this project thus far and I apologize but life kind of got in the way. I have to put some thought into this and come with a list. I find it particularly tough to compare players across positions though. My gut feeling is that peak Duncan circa 2002/2003 is better than peak Magic circa 1987.

homecourtloss · Post #4 » by **homecourtloss** » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:24 am

1. '03 Duncan — great regular and post season and carry job in the playoffs; his two-way impact greater than Magic’s offensive savant impact
2. '02 Duncan — Right under ‘03 Duncan
3. ‘87 Magic —GOAT level offense creation
4. ‘07 Duncan — Duncanesque two way impact
5. ‘90 Magic —Just below ‘90 Magic, defense beginning to slide
6. ‘05 Duncan — Honestly thought about placing this higher
7. ‘88 Magic — Same greet offense, defense not completely on the downslope
8. ‘01 Duncan — less polished than ‘03, perhaps even higher motor
9. ‘04 Duncan
10. ‘89 Magic
11. ‘86 Magic
12. ‘06 Duncan — shame he got injured. This was like ‘78 Walton “what if” if he stayed healthy

Odinn21 · Post #5 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:23 pm

I've been rather busy in real life, so couldn't get my initial thoughts online.

I think the top 2 will be Duncan's 2002/2003.
Then a mixture of Duncan's 2001/2007 and Magic's 1987/1988/1990.
Then 2 injury impacted seasons with Duncan's 2005 and Magic's 1989.
The bottom 3 will be between Duncan's 1999/2004/2006 and Magic's 1985/1986/1991.

Despite leading the Lakers to the NBA Finals, I'm not big on Magic's 1991 season due to how much defensive drop he had.

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homecourtloss wrote:12. ‘06 Duncan — shame he got injured. This was like ‘78 Walton “what if” if he stayed healthy

He wasn't fully healthy, played the regular season with a jogger's heel and that reduced his mobility but he played 80 games in the regular season. I think you're mistaking his 2006 season with another season if you're comparing his season to '78 Walton.

1993Playoffs · Post #6 » by **1993Playoffs** » Fri Sep 24, 2021 5:27 pm

Kind of off topic but how come some people are lower on 88 Magic compared to other seasons in his prime?

Odinn21 · Post #7 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Sep 24, 2021 8:37 pm

1993Playoffs wrote:Kind of off topic but how come some people are lower on 88 Magic compared to other seasons in his prime?

His scoring numbers in the regular season were considerably lower than the previous season and the next season.
1987 Magic; 23.9 ppg on +6.4 rts (+2.5 ts add per 36)
1988 Magic; 19.6 ppg on +4.3 rts (+1.4 ts add per 36)
1989 Magic; 22.5 ppg on +8.8 rts (+3.0 ts add per 36)

Coupling his reg. season scoring worries compared to other seasons with not so convincing title run (4 elimination games played, 3 of 'em were game 7s,), in terms of appeal and completeness, Magic's 1988 season doesn't stand out much.

I'm not saying these btw, just an observation about why 1988 isn't highly regarded.

To me, if there's a title-run that can be labelled as a carry job for Magic, this is the season.

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I see a certain similarity between Magic's 1988 and Timmy's 2006. Compared to the seasons before and after, there's a blip in regular season production rates, those 2 seasons look below average seasons for them. But their impacts held up. Even with that production blip, they were easily top 5 impactful centrepiece players in the league still. So, I'm not particularly harsh on these seasons.

Owly · Post #8 » by **Owly** » Fri Sep 24, 2021 9:25 pm

1993Playoffs wrote:Kind of off topic but how come some people are lower on 88 Magic compared to other seasons in his prime?

One reasonably clear reason ... assuming 87-91 is the "prime comparison".
RS box production/efficiency is clearly his worst and he plays clearly his fewest games (72). Reference composites clearly at their worst that year (23.1 PER is 2 off next worst; .199 WS/48 is.052 of next worst; 6 BPM is 2.8 off next worst.

Of that span it's his:
Worst TS% (haven't checked league norms), worst orb%, joint worst trb%, worst assist % (though near enough tied), second lowest usage. Tov% is better, but still worse (higher) than mean for the span.

Fwiw, it's towards the bottom end of the reference composites in the playoffs for that span too though of course playoffs aren't like for like, and it's a tighter grouping.

Mileage may differ with criteria/approach but that seems a fairly clear, visible reason to be relatively low on that season versus other 87-91 seasons.

70sFan · Post #9 » by **70sFan** » Fri Sep 24, 2021 10:30 pm

Two of my favorite players of all-time, I'll make longer post later tomorrow

Odinn21 · Post #10 » by **Odinn21** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 12:42 am

The quietest thread so far. Let's get this conversation going.

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Top 7 seasons for Tim Duncan;
2003
2002
2007
2001
2005
2 of 1999/2004/2006

Top 7 seasons for Magic Johnson;
1987
1988
1990
1989 (w/o the injury in the Finals, I think 1989 was clearly over 1990)
1991
1986
1985

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 2003 Tim Duncan
2. 2002 Tim Duncan
3. 1987 Magic Johnson
4. 2007 Tim Duncan
5. 2001 Tim Duncan
6. 1988 Magic Johnson
7. 1990 Magic Johnson
8. 2005 Tim Duncan
9. 1989 Magic Johnson
10. 1991 Magic Johnson
11. 2004 Tim Duncan
12. 1986 Magic Johnson

What I thought about this comparison;
- Duncan peaked higher.
- I know mentioned Magic's 1987 in a mix with his 1988/1990 and Timmy's 2001/2007. But definitely stands on an island by himself.

- Well, the next 4 is a tier on their own with 2001/2007 Duncan and 1988/1990 Magic. I basically compared Duncan's 2001 to Magic's 1988.
2001 wasn't the hardest carry mode for Duncan but it was still a hard carry season for him. As I stated earlier, 1988 was the hardest carry more for Magic among his title winning runs. And what I see is that Duncan carried a bigger load better. It's not just about carrying a big load, he also did better.
I compare stronger suit to stronger suit and weaker suit to weaker suit.
2001 was the season Duncan started to establish himself as an all-time great defender. 1988 Magic's offense vs. 2001 Duncan's defense; 1988 Magic has the advantage. 2001 Duncan's offense vs. 1988 Magic's defense; 2001 Duncan has a bigger advantage than Magic's offense in here.
I always go back and forth with Duncan's 2001 and 2007 seasons, they're separated with basically nothing in terms of value. 1990 Magic was considerably worse defender than his 1988 self and. It was also about his offensive load getting bigger and demanding more motor. His offense was actually more refined by 1990 but he lost on defense a bit more.
So, after settling on 2001 Duncan vs. 1988 Magic, I followed my initial individual rankings for them.

- The next 2 up are injury riddled very strong seasons.
- Magic's 1991 is on island like his 1987 season. Just in a tier of its own. Too much of a defensive drop to be over his 1989 self even with the injury.

- I'm usually harsh on number of missed games. I initially thought having 1986 Magic over 2004 Duncan because Duncan missed 13 games. But then reminding myself the fact that Magic missed 10 games negated that aspect and 2004 Duncan was a better player than 1986 Magic.
- 1986 Magic vs. 2006 Duncan was an interesting topic to think about for the last space but at the moment, I'm a bit burnt out because as I keep writing, I'm also watching some footage to be sure about my placement and well, I'm tired.

I went with 1986 Magic as his season's looking more complete.

Ah, I just realised that Magic also played 72 games in 1988. Though I don't think that'll change his season's placement because I still don't think of his defense in 1990 highly enough to put 1990 ahead. 1988 has more defensive effort and quality, 1990 has more refined offense and 7 more regular season games. The defensive gap is still looking bigger to me.

Djoker · Post #11 » by **Djoker** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 5:46 am

After thinking about this more I realize I'm very high on Duncan's peak in 2002 and 2003 but far less high on the rest of his best seasons. I feel that the drop off from his peak two seasons even to 2001 and 2004 was fairly steep that I see myself putting in a lot of Magic seasons above non-peak Duncan.

Top 7 seasons for Tim Duncan:

2003
2002
2001
2005
2007
1999
2004

Top 7 seasons for Magic Johnson:

1987
1990
1989
1988
1991
1986
1985

Putting it together:

2003 Duncan
2002 Duncan
1987 Magic
1990 Magic
1989 Magic
1988 Magic
1991 Magic
1986 Magic
1985 Magic
2001 Duncan
2005 Duncan
2007 Duncan

LA Bird · Post #12 » by **LA Bird** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 1:06 pm

Very low turnout in this round... maybe everyone is waiting for the Russell vs Wilt showdown next.

1. 2003 Duncan
2. 2002 Duncan
3. 1987 Magic
4. 1990 Magic
5. 2007 Duncan
6. 1989 Magic
7. 2005 Duncan
8. 2001 Duncan
9. 1986 Magic
10. 2004 Duncan
11. 1991 Magic
12. 2006 Duncan

02/03 Duncan is one of the best 2 year peaks and comfortably above peak Magic. I don't feel that strongly about any of the seasons after the top 5 so the rest could go either way. I think prime Duncan generally had higher two way impact but he had some issues with missed games (04, 05). He had a subpar regular season in 06 but followed it up with a better playoffs than 88 Magic.

Odinn21 · Post #13 » by **Odinn21** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 3:24 pm

I'm overwhelmed with irl activities right now, have been pretty busy. Didn't get a chance to post the results and the new thread. Will give this thread another day and start the next one tomorrow, nearly 22 and a half hours from now. Cheers all.

70sFan · Post #14 » by **70sFan** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:36 pm

Magic's best seasons:

1987
1990
1988
1989
1991
1986
1985

Duncan's best seasons:

2003
2002
2007
2001
2005
2004
2006
1999

Spoiler:

2003 vs 2002 is a close battle, I decided to go with 2003 because his role was simply more optimal for title team. In 2002 Spurs team was visibly weaker and Duncan had to carry massive offensive load. On top of that, in 2002 WCSF he lost Admiral and had to defend Shaq for majority of the time - all while being forced to 23 FGA in very slow environment. Duncan had to do everything on both ends of the floor and the fact that it still resulted into really high level of play sums up how special Duncan was. The team was clearly better and more balanced in 2003 and Duncan was even better in more limited, though still massive role.

2007 vs 2001 is also interesting debate. Duncan carried heavier load in 2001 and Spurs relied on him more on offensive end. I'm not sure if that's the case on defense though - Admiral was still very strong pressence on defense in 2001. On top of that, Duncan clearly improved his passing next season. I decided to go with the more experienced version of Duncan in one of his finest defensive seasons.

2005 would have been higher without injury, but unfortunately Duncan struggled with health throughout the season. It also limited his potential in the playoffs against physical Pistons defense. 2004 is slightly worse in RS all things concerned and he also had his hands full with Lakers defense in the playoffs. These two seasons are very comparable and when Duncan was healthy, he was probably the best player in the league (well, in 2004 KG has a case as well).

2006 vs 1999 is similar debate to 2001 vs 2007, except the difference in experience and passing is even bigger. I have a hard time evaluating 2006 Duncan. He clearly struggled with injuries all season long, which is visible in his offensive production. At the same time, he remained arguably the most impactful player in the league and he played arguably the best offensive series of his career against strong Mavs team. 1999 Duncan was more productive and had higher motor, but I simply think his impact wasn't on that level yet.

HM to 2000 and 2008, both seasons destroyed by injuries. This exercize shows how much Duncan's career was affected by injuries. Healthy 2004-06 Duncan could compete with the best James seasons and 2000/2008 would also give his prime additional value.

My list:

1. 2003 Tim Duncan - GOAT-level two-way performance from Duncan.
2. 2002 Tim Duncan - really close to the first one, just different team structure limited his ceilling a bit.
3. 1987 Magic Johnson - I feel a bit uncomfortable with picking is clearly higher than the rest of Magic's seasons, but it's clearly his most complete season with GOAT-level offensive production. All while still being solid on defensive end.
4. 2007 Tim Duncan - close battle between 2007 and 1990/1988, but Duncan's defensive edge is massive and he was still very strong offensive player in that season.
5. 1990 Magic Johnson - arguably the best offensive version of Magic and my personal GOAT offensive player. Defense took a step back from 1987 and 1988 though.
6. 1988 Magic Johnson - the most underappreciated of Magic seasons strictly because of weaker scoring in RS. Magic carried a team that was clearly inferior to its 1987 self to the finals and put up one of the finest performances in finals history against top tier Pistons team. Seriously, Magic was a monster in 1988.
7. 2001 Tim Duncan - I still struggle with ranking this version of Duncan. He was basically at his best around that time, but his passing was noticeably weaker and I'm still unsure about his defensive impact. That said, it was a massive carryjob and I can't pick any other version of Magic over that version of Duncan.
8. 2005 Tim Duncan - it's a close call between prime Duncan who struggled with injuries and 1989 Magic who regressed on defensive end and got hurt in the finals. I think that their RS performances are close (with Magic getting the edge due to durability) but Timmy played through injury in the playoffs and was highly impactful doing so. I know he struggled in the finals, but it was still a pretty good performance from his part.
9. 1989 Magic Johnson - one of Magic's finest offensive seasons, but he got hurt in the playoffs.
10. 1991 Magic Johnson - it shows how close this competition is when you see 1991 Magic this low on the list. Fantastic season all around and quite heavy carryjob in playoffs. Unfortunately, his defense got worse and worse as he got older.
11. 2004 Tim Duncan - I know he struggled with missed games, but Duncan was still monster on per-possession level in 2004. It was one of his finest defensive seasons as well.
12. 2006 Tim Duncan - very close between 1986 and 2006, but Timmy played a bit better in playoffs and despite his weak scoring stats, he was still among the best players in the league in RS. Magic was fantastic himself in 1986 (it was the beginning of his true prime), but I think that what Duncan did was a bit more impressive.

HM: 1986 Magic, I feel bad leaving him from this list.

Very tight comparison, I struggled to make this list because I'm a big fan of both players. My main concerns with my list is 2001 ranking (I feel like I'm underrating this season), 2004 vs 1991 (another very close debate) and leaving 1986 off the list.

70sFan · Post #15 » by **70sFan** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:38 pm

Djoker wrote:After thinking about this more I realize I'm very high on Duncan's peak in 2002 and 2003 but far less high on the rest of his best seasons. I feel that the drop off from his peak two seasons even to 2001 and 2004 was fairly steep that I see myself putting in a lot of Magic seasons above non-peak Duncan.

Top 7 seasons for Tim Duncan:

2003
2002
2001
2005
2007
1999
2004

Top 7 seasons for Magic Johnson:

1987
1990
1989
1988
1991
1986
1985

Putting it together:

2003 Duncan
2002 Duncan
1987 Magic
1990 Magic
1989 Magic
1988 Magic
1991 Magic
1986 Magic
1985 Magic
2001 Duncan
2005 Duncan

Why do you think there is such a massive difference between peak Duncan and 2001 or 2007 versions? Could you elaborate it please?

70sFan · Post #16 » by **70sFan** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:41 pm

LA Bird wrote:Very low turnout in this round... maybe everyone is waiting for the Russell vs Wilt showdown next.

1. 2003 Duncan
2. 2002 Duncan
3. 1987 Magic
4. 1990 Magic
5. 2007 Duncan
6. 1989 Magic
7. 2005 Duncan
8. 2001 Duncan
9. 1986 Magic
10. 2004 Duncan
11. 1991 Magic
12. 2006 Duncan

02/03 Duncan is one of the best 2 year peaks and comfortably above peak Magic. I don't feel that strongly about any of the seasons after the top 5 so the rest could go either way. I think prime Duncan generally had higher two way impact but he had some issues with missed games (04, 05). He had a subpar regular season in 06 but followed it up with a better playoffs than 88 Magic.

Why do you feel so low on 1988 Magic? I'm specially interested in the criticism of his postseason run, because I find it quite impressive if anything. I know that the Lakers struggled throughout the playoffs, but at no point Magic really underperformed. In fact, he was by far the best player in the finals and he faced extremely good team that was well equipped to deal with old Showtime Lakers.

Odinn21 · Post #17 » by **Odinn21** » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:40 pm

The dust has finally settled. I was too busy in the day.

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Tagging people once again because the turnout is pretty low even though this one exceeded our usual 48h voting window.

Spoiler:

Djoker · Post #18 » by **Djoker** » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:54 am

70sFan wrote:
Djoker wrote:After thinking about this more I realize I'm very high on Duncan's peak in 2002 and 2003 but far less high on the rest of his best seasons. I feel that the drop off from his peak two seasons even to 2001 and 2004 was fairly steep that I see myself putting in a lot of Magic seasons above non-peak Duncan.

Top 7 seasons for Tim Duncan:

2003
2002
2001
2005
2007
1999
2004

Top 7 seasons for Magic Johnson:

1987
1990
1989
1988
1991
1986
1985

Putting it together:

2003 Duncan
2002 Duncan
1987 Magic
1990 Magic
1989 Magic
1988 Magic
1991 Magic
1986 Magic
1985 Magic
2001 Duncan
2005 Duncan

Why do you think there is such a massive difference between peak Duncan and 2001 or 2007 versions? Could you elaborate it please?

I just think Duncan's offense took a hit. He struggled mightily to keep a decent level of scoring volume and effciency against strong defenders outside of his peak... off the top of my head Garnett in 1999, Garnett in 2001, Rasheed in 1999, Wallaces in 2005, Camby in 2007, Varejao in 2007... all held Duncan down to pretty pedestrian numbers.

Post 2006, I also think his defensive motor was dialed back a notch as well.

Odinn21 · Post #19 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:15 am

Djoker wrote:I just think Duncan's offense took a hit. He struggled mightily to keep a decent level of scoring volume and effciency against strong defenders outside of his peak... off the top of my head Garnett in 1999, Garnett in 2001, Rasheed in 1999, Wallaces in 2005, Camby in 2007, Varejao in 2007... all held Duncan down to pretty pedestrian numbers.

Garnett and Duncan always did fairly well against each other, so let's put that aside from the beginning.

Are you just checking box numbers? Because Duncan's game 3 against the Blazers in 1999 was butchered by the refs, he barely played due to a foul trouble. It was a clean sweep and Duncan averaged 20.7/10.3/3.0 and 4.0 blocks (86.7 ppg for the team for scale) on .561 fg against Sheed in the other 3 games. On a per poss scale, that was 27.5/13.7/4.0 and 5.3 blocks per 100.

Duncan had 1 bad game against Camby in 2007, the 1st game, then he was 21.8/10.8/5.0 and 2.8 blocks (95.5 ppg team) on .487 fg. 32.4/16.0/7.4 and 4.2 blocks per 100.

He had 2 uncharacteristic games against the Cavs, I'll give you that.

Now, let's move onto the main issue with this approach.

Other than 2005 NBA Finals, none of those series were competitive. Duncan and the Spurs went 14-3 in those games with +7.3 NRtg over the competition.
Do you seriously think that Duncan not gunning for high scoring numbers in uncompetitive series is more critical than his performances like far more capable and actually threatening teams?
27.0/17.4/3.6 and 2.0 blocks on .510 fg against the 6th NRtg Mavs in 2001 (35.6/22.9/4.7 and 2.6 per 100)
27.4/13.8/3.2 and 1.8 blocks on .527 fg against the 2nd NRtg Suns in 2005 (36.4/18.3/4.3 and 2.4 per 100)
32.3/11.7/3.7 and 2.6 blocks on .556 fg against the 3rd NRtg Mavs in 2006 (43.0/15.6/4.9 and 3.4 per 100)
26.8/13.7/1.2 and 4.2 blocks on .573 fg against the 3rd NRtg Suns in 2007 (36.2/18.4/1.6 and 5.6 per 100)

Do you really not recognise what happened against the Suns which was actually a pretty competitive series and go on to think like in this manner as if the other series in 2007 were more telling and there's nothing else to consider?
What happened against Sheed in 1999 was more important than because you failed to recognise a particular game causing variance and there's no consideration for going ham against a very solid team in the Mavs in 2006?

And you're hard on Duncan's offensive game but not on Magic's defensive game? I suspect this is because you can't put that in numbers to see. I can't see another reason for such position tbh.
You have quite literally 1985 Magic over every other Duncan version...

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Djoker wrote:Post 2006, I also think his defensive motor was dialed back a notch as well.

Just, what?..
I'll say this, Duncan should've been the DPoY in 2007, he was in top 1% in D-RAPM, he led a -6.5 rDRtg defense in regular season and also a -6.0 rDRtg defense in postseason. All around, he had an all-time season on D. This was just Duncan after dialing back a notch on defensive motor, imagine the times he actually played harder.
How did you end up witch such wrong notion and also wrong conclusion?

Djoker · Post #20 » by **Djoker** » Sun Sep 26, 2021 4:14 am

Odinn21 wrote:
Djoker wrote:I just think Duncan's offense took a hit. He struggled mightily to keep a decent level of scoring volume and effciency against strong defenders outside of his peak... off the top of my head Garnett in 1999, Garnett in 2001, Rasheed in 1999, Wallaces in 2005, Camby in 2007, Varejao in 2007... all held Duncan down to pretty pedestrian numbers.

Garnett and Duncan always did fairly well against each other, so let's put that aside from the beginning.

Are you just checking box numbers? Because Duncan's game 3 against the Blazers in 1999 was butchered by the refs, he barely played due to a foul trouble. It was a clean sweep and Duncan averaged 20.7/10.3/3.0 and 4.0 blocks (86.7 ppg for the team for scale) on .561 fg against Sheed in the other 3 games. On a per poss scale, that was 27.5/13.7/4.0 and 5.3 blocks per 100.

Duncan had 1 bad game against Camby in 2007, the 1st game, then he was 21.8/10.8/5.0 and 2.8 blocks (95.5 ppg team) on .487 fg. 32.4/16.0/7.4 and 4.2 blocks per 100.

He had 2 uncharacteristic games against the Cavs, I'll give you that.

Now, let's move onto the main issue with this approach.

Other than 2005 NBA Finals, none of those series were competitive. Duncan and the Spurs went 14-3 in those games with +7.3 NRtg over the competition.
Do you seriously think that Duncan not gunning for high scoring numbers in uncompetitive series is more critical than his performances like far more capable and actually threatening teams?
27.0/17.4/3.6 and 2.0 blocks on .510 fg against the 6th NRtg Mavs in 2001 (35.6/22.9/4.7 and 2.6 per 100)
27.4/13.8/3.2 and 1.8 blocks on .527 fg against the 2nd NRtg Suns in 2005 (36.4/18.3/4.3 and 2.4 per 100)
32.3/11.7/3.7 and 2.6 blocks on .556 fg against the 3rd NRtg Mavs in 2006 (43.0/15.6/4.9 and 3.4 per 100)
26.8/13.7/1.2 and 4.2 blocks on .573 fg against the 3rd NRtg Suns in 2007 (36.2/18.4/1.6 and 5.6 per 100)

Do you really not recognise what happened against the Suns which was actually a pretty competitive series and go on to think like in this manner as if the other series in 2007 were more telling and there's nothing else to consider?
What happened against Sheed in 1999 was more important than because you failed to recognise a particular game causing variance and there's no consideration for going ham against a very solid team in the Mavs in 2006?

And you're hard on Duncan's offensive game but not on Magic's defensive game? I suspect this is because you can't put that in numbers to see. I can't see another reason for such position tbh.
You have quite literally 1985 Magic over every other Duncan version...

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Djoker wrote:Post 2006, I also think his defensive motor was dialed back a notch as well.

Just, what?..
I'll say this, Duncan should've been the DPoY in 2007, he was in top 1% in D-RAPM, he led a -6.5 rDRtg defense in regular season and also a -6.0 rDRtg defense in postseason. All around, he had an all-time season on D. This was just Duncan after dialing back a notch on defensive motor, imagine the times he actually played harder.
How did you end up witch such wrong notion and also wrong conclusion?

Good post. I just listed some performances off of the top of my head. Generally though, Duncan was a lot more prolific on offense in 2002 and 2003. In those years he played like a legitimate scoring alpha on top of all the other work he did. In other years for whatever reason, his offensive numbers were more subdued. Some of it was age and some was also his role on the team perhaps with Manu and Tony improving. How much of each... it's hard to say but I still think there is a major drop off from 2002/2003 to any other version of Duncan and it's primarily the offense.

I might be off on my defense comment. Those numbers do look pretty great. I was just basing it off of the eye test. He began saving energy after 2006 that I think he lost just a little bit of effort.