[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain

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[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#1 » by Odinn21 » Mon Oct 4, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;
Spoiler:
1. Bill Russell vs. Magic Johnson
2. Hakeem Olajuwon vs. Larry Bird
3. Michael Jordan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
4. LeBron James vs. Tim Duncan
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Shaquille O'Neal

6. LeBron James vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
7. Michael Jordan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
8. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Larry Bird
9. Tim Duncan vs. Magic Johnson
10. Bill Russell vs. Wilt Chamberlain

11. Michael Jordan vs. Larry Bird
12. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. LeBron James vs. Bill Russell
14. Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain
15. Magic Johnson vs. Shaquille O'Neal

16. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Bill Russell
17. Shaquille O'Neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
18. Magic Johnson vs. Larry Bird
19. LeBron James vs. Wilt Chamberlain
20. Michael Jordan vs. Tim Duncan

21. LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan
22. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Wilt Chamberlain
23. Tim Duncan vs. Larry Bird
24. Bill Russell vs. Shaquille O'Neal
25. Magic Johnson vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

26. LeBron James vs. Larry Bird
27. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Magic Johnson
28. Michael Jordan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
29. Bill Russell vs. Tim Duncan
30. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

31. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Shaquille O'Neal
32. LeBron James vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
33. Bill Russell vs. Larry Bird
34. Michael Jordan vs. Magic Johnson
35. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Tim Duncan

36. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Larry Bird
37. Tim Duncan vs. Shaquille O'Neal
38. Bill Russell vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
39. LeBron James vs. Magic Johnson
40. Michael Jordan vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

41. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar vs. Larry Bird
42. LeBron James vs. Shaquille O'Neal
43. Wilt Chamberlain vs. Magic Johnson
44. Tim Duncan vs. Hakeem Olajuwon
45. Michael Jordan vs. Bill Russell


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The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#2 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 4, 2021 5:45 pm

Wilt's best seasons:

1967
1964
1968
1962
1965
1966
1963
1960

Duncan's best seasons:

2003
2002
2007
2001
2005
2004
2006
1999

My thoughts:

- the first tier includes 1964/1967 vs 2002/2003,
- after the clear top 4, you have 2007 vs 1968,
- 2001 and 2005 vs 1962 is another close call,
- I think I'd take 1965 and 1966 over 2004,
- 2006 finishes the top 12.

I have to take more time to decide on the order, but it's definitely a close comparison. I'd like to see more opinions before finishing my list.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#3 » by Odinn21 » Mon Oct 4, 2021 7:59 pm

These are the games I'll be watching before posting my list (sharing if someone's interested);


The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#4 » by 70sFan » Mon Oct 4, 2021 8:15 pm

I hope to get new material from 1967 finals (17 minutes of footage from game 5), but I haven't collected enough money yet (it costs $475, I have $360 collected for now). I don't know if it's allowed to make posts like this one in our board, but if anyone is willing to make a donation for that reel, please contact me on PM. I really want to get this reel this month and it would help us in this project a lot!
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#5 » by Djoker » Mon Oct 4, 2021 8:16 pm

Honestly this is one of the most more difficult comparisons. I think I've grown more fond of Duncan's non-peak years and have slightly adjusted my seasons valuations as well since the last Duncan thread where people criticized my valuations of 2001 and 2007 Duncan specifically. I still have to figure it all out.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#6 » by 70sFan » Tue Oct 5, 2021 6:48 pm

Alright, my list:

1. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain - it's GOAT level season and although I feel uncomfortable with having peak Duncan lower, I just think that Wilt's offensive output was more dominant than Duncan's.
2. 2003 Tim Duncan - another GOAT-level season, massive carryjob.
3. 2002 Tim Duncan - even bigger carryjob than 2003, Duncan was forced to do more than he should have.
4. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain - I have this season really close to 2002, but I think that Duncan did a little more offensively with what he had than Wilt in 1964. It is very close though and Duncan didn't face as good defensive team as 1964 Celtics during his peak.

5. 2007 Tim Duncan - I'd have 1968 ahead without injury, but I can't take incomplete season over such a well-rounded performance from Timmy.
6. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain - I have this above 2001 Duncan because I think that Wilt was more polished player than 2001 Timmy, who still didn't reach his best in reading the game on both ends of the floor.
7. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain - I like what Wilt did in the playoffs against Boston a bit more than what Duncan did against the Lakers. People always remember his low scoring game 7 performance, but they don't realize that before this game Wilt averaged 36/28/3 on +4 rTS% against GOAT defensive team.
8. 2001 Tim Duncan - extremely good performance from Timmy, should have won the MVP award in that season.

9. 2005 Tim Duncan - monster impact metrics from this season, but he struggled with health unfortunately. Still, it's more complete season than any of Wilt's available.
10. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain - it's close between 1965 and 2004, basically the fight between low effort in RS due to health problems and mid-season trade vs durability issues. I decided to pick Wilt over Duncan, because he was clearly better in postseason.
11. 1966 Wilt Chamberlain - again, it was very strong MVP-level RS season from Wilt and even though he struggled in the playoffs, it wasn't really worse than Duncan's struggles vs Lakers.
12. 2004 Tim Duncan - I feel comfortable with 2004 finishing the list. It was very strong, but incomplete season with missed games and questionable performances in the playoffs. That said, it's clearly better than any other Wilt season available.

I'm willing to change my list, but for now I view it as a good effort. It's extremely close list (a tie), the closest one I've made. I'm quite surprised that Duncan doesn't look better by that list, but to be honest his seasons would make 13th and 14th mark as well (though 1999 vs 1963 would be interesting).
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#7 » by Djoker » Tue Oct 5, 2021 7:58 pm

My order of Duncan's seasons is the same as previous threads except I swapped the order of 2005 and 2007 thanks to the defensive dominance of the latter. I also consider non-peak Duncan seasons to be closer to his 2002 and 2003 than I used to. The combined list is difficult here as I consider these players close in impact. Wilt never had a big offensive impact except in 1967 so that's why that season is definitely #1 for me. After that it kind of zigzags and their primes are almost equal to me.

Top 7 Duncan Seasons:

2003
2002
2001
2007
2005
1999
2004

Top 7 Wilt Seasons:

1967
1964
1968
1965
1962
1966
1972

Top 12 Combined Seasons:

1967 Wilt
1964 Wilt
2003 Duncan
2002 Duncan
2001 Duncan
1968 Wilt
2007 Duncan
1965 Wilt
1962 Wilt
2005 Duncan
1999 Duncan
1966 Wilt
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#8 » by Odinn21 » Wed Oct 6, 2021 12:41 am

Here we go.

Top 7 seasons for Tim Duncan;
2003
2002
2007
2001
2005
2 of 1999/2004/2006

Top 7 seasons for Wilt Chamberlain;
1967
1964
1962
1968
1965
1966
1960/1972

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
2. 2003 Tim Duncan
3. 2002 Tim Duncan
4. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
5. 2007 Tim Duncan
6. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain
7. 2001 Tim Duncan
8. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain
9. 2005 Tim Duncan
10. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain
11. 2004 Tim Duncan
12. 2006 Tim Duncan

Thoughts;
- 1967 Chamberlain is goat level peak. 2003 Duncan is quite close but still not the same.
- 2002 Duncan's rs impact was greater than 1964 Chamberlain's, I have their ps runs in the same ballpark.
- 2007 Duncan keeps showing off how great it could be for Duncan without the injuries in 3 straight seasons after his absolute peak season.
- 1962 Chamberlain and 2001 Duncan are quite similar, younger and more explosive but less refined versions of themselves. Similar to 2002 Duncan vs. 1964 Chamberlain, I have 2001 Duncan ahead in rs but 1962 Chamberlain's ps run makes up for more than that this time around. I mean Duncan had it tougher in terms of supporting cast / opponent strength ratio against the Lakers than Chamberlain against the Celtics but Chamberlain's performance was still better.
- Right now, I have 2005 Duncan over 1965 Chamberlain but might change it before the deadline. Right now, Duncan's playmaking volume and value is the difference maker to me.
- I'm not happy with denying 1966 Chamberlain but even Duncan missed 13 games in 2004, his rs impact was still higher. On top off that, while Duncan did not have a pretty ps run from the line in 2004, Chamberlain's ft issues were the reason why the Sixers lost a series that should've been competitive in 5. 3 of 4 losses the Sixers had were primarily on Chamberlain's inability hit from the line (even that blowout game 1, the Celtics just kept putting Chamberlain on the line in the 2nd half). 2004 Duncan's performance against the Lakers wasn't pretty, but with another offensively slanted team, he was 1 weird shot away from getting the upper hand against a superior team once again.
Duncan's 2006 rs is a step below his 2004 self, also arguably a step below Chamberlain's 1966. But his ps performance was just on another level.

So, that's 54:46 for these 2 and I think that's fair and on point.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#9 » by Odinn21 » Wed Oct 6, 2021 12:56 am

70sFan wrote:11. 1966 Wilt Chamberlain - again, it was very strong MVP-level RS season from Wilt and even though he struggled in the playoffs, it wasn't really worse than Duncan's struggles vs Lakers.
12. 2004 Tim Duncan - I feel comfortable with 2004 finishing the list. It was very strong, but incomplete season with missed games and questionable performances in the playoffs. That said, it's clearly better than any other Wilt season available.

It was worse though.

Game 1- The Celtics kept putting Chamberlain on the line at the start of the 2nd half and it paid so greatly that it turned out to be a blowout.
Game 2- Russell did a great job at disturbing Chamberlain's shots. Chamberlain was 5 of 7 from the line but he was limited by Russell so much in general.
Game 3- Another bad ft game from him. To his credit, he was a monster on defense making things happen and led the Sixers to a win. He owned Russell in this game as not only he defended Russell's shots very well, he disrupted Russell's passing flow.
Game 4- He basically refused to shoot in this game due to how Russell came back and hunted him down after game 3. His facilitating and screen setting on offense were on point but he still attempted 13 fgs in regulation, and he went 0-1 from the field and 0-2 from the line in ot.
Game 5- Chamberlain came back to be aggressive as possible. He forced the Celtics so much that none of them ended the game with less than 4 fouls. But in doing so, he went 8-25 from the line. He was 2-11 in the first quarter which put the Sixers in a position of chase for the rest of the game and the Celtics held on.

This series should've been at least a 6 game series with more fight in it. Chamberlain's ft worries didn't let it to happen.
Compared to Duncan who was struggling on offense himself (his game 3 performance was truly awful, it was probably the worst postseason game of Duncan's prime) but still 1 odd shot away from going up by 3-2 against a superior and a far deeper team, I very much disagree with the bolded part. Duncan put his team to in a competitive position, played goat level defense while directly facing one of the monsters in history.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#10 » by His Dudeness » Wed Oct 6, 2021 4:00 am

1. 1966-67 Wilt Chamberlain
2. 2002-03 Tim Duncan
3. 2001-02 Tim Duncan
4. 1963-64 Wilt Chamberlain
5. 1967-68 Wilt Chamberlain
6. 2006-07 Tim Duncan
7. 1961-62 Wilt Chamberlain
8. 2000-01 Tim Duncan
9. 1965-66 Wilt Chamberlain
10. 2003-04 Tim Duncan
11. 2004-05 Tim Duncan
12. 1964-65 Wilt Chamberlain

I just wanted to touch on a few of the seasons I placed on the list.

1968 Wilt is an extremely interesting player. Defensively, he was incredible, and his passing (some stat-padding) was just as impressive as the year prior. In general, everything about this season is truly breathtaking, outside of his failure in the postseason (horrific free throw shooting, fading away in game 7). Even with the playoff faults, his level of play was not far off from his championship season, and I feel very comfortable having it in my top 5.

Similar to Chamberlain’s ‘68 season, I am rather high on Duncan’s 2003-04 outing (yeah, it’s 10th). He did miss some games in the regular season, but he was the anchor to an outstanding Spurs’ defense. This season was a strong MVP showing from Duncan, but just happened to be following up his most dominant season and overshadowed by another MVP level performance. In his first season without David Robinson, Duncan looked just as dominant on defense as he was in his MVP winning seasons. It is a very underrated showing from my perspective.

Edit: After some thought and conversation, I moved '05 Duncan ahead of '65 Wilt. Wilt's regular season is a bit too tempestuous for my liking.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#11 » by Odinn21 » Wed Oct 6, 2021 4:58 am

Odinn21 wrote:10. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain
11. 2004 Tim Duncan
12. 2006 Tim Duncan

By the way, I'm having second thoughts about 1965 Chamberlain's placement. I know, I was the one who drew attention to '65 Chamberlain in the Jordan-Chamberlain thread. But to do so, I might have overcorrected things.

I had '65 Chamberlain over '96 Jordan (though went back and edited my post), then I had '66 Russell over '65 Chamberlain (fwiw, I have no issues with having '66 Russell over '96 Jordan), now it's '05 Duncan over '65 Chamberlain. And in terms of trajectory within a season, '65 Chamberlain and '06 Duncan are looking quite similar. Rather underwhelming regular season performances and impact but huge postseason performances.

I read my own arguments for '65 Chamberlain in the Jordan-Chamberlain thread and I stand by them. But my conclusion of '65 > '96 looks like an overcorrection, also I'm not so sure if this is the right order for these 3 seasons. I might change it or not, it's incredibly cramped up. Just thinking about it.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#12 » by falcolombardi » Wed Oct 6, 2021 5:05 am

Odinn21 wrote:These are the games I'll be watching before posting my list (sharing if someone's interested);
.

watched the wilt game and think there is a play that encapsulated it for me

at 39:00~ there is a quick play by boston were bill russel is at the baseline, feet right outside the paint, wilt is still behind getting into position one step inside

havlicek has all the time in the world to pass to a open russel who has an advantage in closeness to the basket and is in position to receive the pass

but instead he just waits and russel who seemed read to catch the ball does a screen instead so havlicek can take a jumpshot

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i dont know if havlicek simply made a mistake (unlikely) or wilt had such intimidation factor he doesnt even begin to consider russel could score there

wilt also had like 5 block in a half, a couple goaltendings (one looked like it was good) a steal, nearly fouled russel out when he got position inside

just so much value despite not looking for his own shot at all and according to comments having some problem with his shin
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#13 » by Odinn21 » Wed Oct 6, 2021 5:29 am

falcolombardi wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:These are the games I'll be watching before posting my list (sharing if someone's interested);
.

watched the wilt game and think there is a play that encapsulated it for me

at 39:00~ there is a quick play by boston were bill russel is at the baseline, feet right outside the paint, wilt is still behind getting into position one step inside

havlicek has all the time in the world to pass to a open russel who has an advantage in closeness to the basket and is in position to receive the pass

but instead he just waits and russel who seemed read to catch the ball does a screen instead so havlicek can take a jumpshot

i dont know if havlicek simply made a mistake (unlikely) or wilt had such intimidation factor he doesnt even begin to consider russel could score there

wilt also had like 5 block in a half, a couple goaltendings (one looked like it was good) a steal, nearly fouled russel out when he got position inside

just so much value despite not looking for his own shot at all and according to comments having some problem with his shin

In the previous 2 games, Chamberlain made Russell's life quite miserable.
"I got shot down and we lost, I'm not trying to score this game, I'm here to move the ball around" mentality was present in many many battles between these 2. Russell was 8 for 27 in the previous 2 games from the floor and the Celtics lost those 2 games by 5 and 11.
Russell was actively refusing to shoot in that game.
It wasn't just a thing only Russell did. Chamberlain did it too. If there was ever such a back and forth in the internet age, involved players would be quite scrutinised by the media. :D
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#14 » by Colbinii » Wed Oct 6, 2021 2:45 pm

1. 2003 Tim Duncan
2. 1967 Wilt Chamberlain
3. 1964 Wilt Chamberlain
4. 2002 Tim Duncan

5. 2007 Tim Duncan
6. 2001 Tim Duncan
7. 1968 Wilt Chamberlain
8. 1962 Wilt Chamberlain
9. 1966 Wilt Chamberlain
10. 1965 Wilt Chamberlain
11. 2005 Tim Duncan
12. 2004 Tim Duncan

Don't have time for explanation, will add later. I have a difficult time with my #6-#12.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#15 » by Narigo » Wed Oct 6, 2021 3:11 pm

1.1964 Wilt Chamberlain
2.1967 Wilt Chamberlian
3.2002 Tim Duncan
4.2003 Tim Duncan
5.1968 Wilt Chamberlain
6.1966 Wilt Chamberlain
7.1962 Wilt Chamberlain
8.1963 Wilt Chamberlain
9.2004 Tim Duncan
10.2005 Tim Duncan
11.2007 Tim Duncan
12.2001 Tim Duncan
Narigo's Fantasy Team

PG: Damian Lillard
SG: Sidney Moncrief
SF:
PF: James Worthy
C: Tim Duncan

BE: Robert Horry
BE:
BE:
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#16 » by Odinn21 » Wed Oct 6, 2021 3:16 pm

I'm away from my pc, I'll publish the results when I have a chance.
The issue with per75 numbers;
36pts on 27 fga/9 fta in 36 mins, does this mean he'd keep up the efficiency to get 48pts on 36fga/12fta in 48 mins?
The answer; NO. He's human, not a linearly working machine.
Per75 is efficiency rate, not actual production.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 6, 2021 4:55 pm

Odinn21 wrote:Game 1- The Celtics kept putting Chamberlain on the line at the start of the 2nd half and it paid so greatly that it turned out to be a blowout.

Don't you think that his teammates shooting 32% from the field also has something to do with that?

I won't deny, Wilt's FT issues certainly didn't help but this would be a clear blowout even without Wilt's missing FTs.


Game 2- Russell did a great job at disturbing Chamberlain's shots. Chamberlain was 5 of 7 from the line but he was limited by Russell so much in general.

Yeah, I agree with that. Wilt struggled in that game, though it's important to mention Greer going 1/11 from the field.


Game 4- He basically refused to shoot in this game due to how Russell came back and hunted him down after game 3. His facilitating and screen setting on offense were on point but he still attempted 13 fgs in regulation, and he went 0-1 from the field and 0-2 from the line in ot.

Yeah, it's probably his worst game of the series. It was a winnable game as well (unlike games 1 and 2), so he deserves a lot of blame for that one.

Game 5- Chamberlain came back to be aggressive as possible. He forced the Celtics so much that none of them ended the game with less than 4 fouls. But in doing so, he went 8-25 from the line. He was 2-11 in the first quarter which put the Sixers in a position of chase for the rest of the game and the Celtics held on.

Again - how much of a blame should we give Wilt for this loss when his teammates shot 30% from the field? It's true that his poor FT% hurt his team but without his herculean effort they would get blown out quickly.

This series should've been at least a 6 game series with more fight in it. Chamberlain's ft worries didn't let it to happen.

I think that Greer having the worst series of his career (16/7/4 on 40 TS%) is the bigger factor to be honest. Chet Walker didn't help either and Wali Jones clearly wasn't prepared for that in 1966 (13/3/4 on 37 TS%).

You can prove me wrong, but I also have a reason to believe that Sixers guards averaged a lot of turnovers in the series as well. Celtics defense simply shut them down and I don't think Wilt's better FT shooting would change the outcome.

Compared to Duncan who was struggling on offense himself (his game 3 performance was truly awful, it was probably the worst postseason game of Duncan's prime) but still 1 odd shot away from going up by 3-2 against a superior and a far deeper team, I very much disagree with the bolded part. Duncan put his team to in a competitive position, played goat level defense while directly facing one of the monsters in history.

To be honest, you may be right. Still, I don't think it's as simple as that. Spurs were on a good pace to beat Lakers going up 2-0 and after two strong performances, Duncan put up probably his worst postseason performance in his prime in game 3 and he wasn't great in game 4 either. These two games completely swung the momentum to the opposite direction. Even after getting a win with his heroics in game 5, I don't think Spurs would have won the series. They got blown out in game 6 and I can't be confident with Spurs chances when Duncan was so inconsistent throughout the series.


All these points should be taken with the prespective that Wilt had clearly better RS in 1966 than Duncan in 2004. Even if you believe that Duncan played better in postseason (which is arguable to me, but defensible), I don't think he played good enough to overcome the difference in RS performance.
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#18 » by 70sFan » Wed Oct 6, 2021 7:57 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:These are the games I'll be watching before posting my list (sharing if someone's interested);
.

watched the wilt game and think there is a play that encapsulated it for me

at 39:00~ there is a quick play by boston were bill russel is at the baseline, feet right outside the paint, wilt is still behind getting into position one step inside

havlicek has all the time in the world to pass to a open russel who has an advantage in closeness to the basket and is in position to receive the pass

but instead he just waits and russel who seemed read to catch the ball does a screen instead so havlicek can take a jumpshot

i dont know if havlicek simply made a mistake (unlikely) or wilt had such intimidation factor he doesnt even begin to consider russel could score there

wilt also had like 5 block in a half, a couple goaltendings (one looked like it was good) a steal, nearly fouled russel out when he got position inside

just so much value despite not looking for his own shot at all and according to comments having some problem with his shin

In the previous 2 games, Chamberlain made Russell's life quite miserable.
"I got shot down and we lost, I'm not trying to score this game, I'm here to move the ball around" mentality was present in many many battles between these 2. Russell was 8 for 27 in the previous 2 games from the floor and the Celtics lost those 2 games by 5 and 11.
Russell was actively refusing to shoot in that game.
It wasn't just a thing only Russell did. Chamberlain did it too. If there was ever such a back and forth in the internet age, involved players would be quite scrutinised by the media. :D


It's easy to understand why Celtics were intimidated by Wilt's pressence :D

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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#19 » by falcolombardi » Wed Oct 6, 2021 8:05 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Odinn21 wrote:These are the games I'll be watching before posting my list (sharing if someone's interested);
.

watched the wilt game and think there is a play that encapsulated it for me

at 39:00~ there is a quick play by boston were bill russel is at the baseline, feet right outside the paint, wilt is still behind getting into position one step inside

havlicek has all the time in the world to pass to a open russel who has an advantage in closeness to the basket and is in position to receive the pass

but instead he just waits and russel who seemed read to catch the ball does a screen instead so havlicek can take a jumpshot

i dont know if havlicek simply made a mistake (unlikely) or wilt had such intimidation factor he doesnt even begin to consider russel could score there

wilt also had like 5 block in a half, a couple goaltendings (one looked like it was good) a steal, nearly fouled russel out when he got position inside

just so much value despite not looking for his own shot at all and according to comments having some problem with his shin

In the previous 2 games, Chamberlain made Russell's life quite miserable.
"I got shot down and we lost, I'm not trying to score this game, I'm here to move the ball around" mentality was present in many many battles between these 2. Russell was 8 for 27 in the previous 2 games from the floor and the Celtics lost those 2 games by 5 and 11.
Russell was actively refusing to shoot in that game.
It wasn't just a thing only Russell did. Chamberlain did it too. If there was ever such a back and forth in the internet age, involved players would be quite scrutinised by the media. :D


any star player not scoring 25+ a game ? Exposed, glorified biyombo, etc

it would get treated worse than gobert currently
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Re: [Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Tim Duncan vs. Wilt Chamberlain 

Post#20 » by homecourtloss » Wed Oct 6, 2021 8:07 pm

1. 1967 Wilt. I love Duncan but I see this as the best year between the two. in contention for GOAT season. Played differently, changed shot selection, played more of a power game, scored or was fouled, FT% wasn’t good unfortunately, dominated defensively and was a very good playmaker.
2. 2003 Duncan. A great regular and then post season carry job in the playoffs; his two-way impact I think puts him ahead of 1964 Wilt.
3. 2002 Duncan. Right under ‘03 Duncan
4. 1964 Wilt. This crazy one of a kind season deserves a spot. Carried the team hard both defensively and offensively. Had a hard time placing under 2002 Duncan.
5. 2007 Duncan. Duncanesque two way impact
6. 1968 Wilt. injury concerns hurt him. A title this year I think would change much of the narrative
7. 2005 Duncan
8. 1962 Wilt
9. 2001 Duncan
10. 2004 Duncan
11. 1965 Wilt
12. 1966 Wilt
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