[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Magic Johnson vs. Shaquille O'Neal

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Wed Oct 6, 2021 3:16 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

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Spoiler:

Odinn21 · Post #2 » by **Odinn21** » Thu Oct 7, 2021 2:51 pm

I'm having a hard time in my life right now, so I may not be as active as before. These are the games I'll try to watch before I commit to my rankings but it's not a guarantee that I'll be able to finish them this time around.

The games I picked for Magic;

Watch on YouTube

This game is fully available as a playlist though.
(I've always been kind of big on this game but this was the game Magic's offensive capabilities were at display to the maximum. The Lakers weren't functioning good and the tension between Magic and Riley wasn't helping. This was as valiant as it could get for Magic.)

Watch on YouTube

The games I picked for Shaq;

Watch on YouTube

It's kind of crazy that these 2 games were b2b.

mdonnelly1989 · Post #3 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Thu Oct 7, 2021 3:08 pm

[quote="Odinn21"]I'm having a hard time in my life right now, so I may not be as active as before. These are the games I'll try to watch before I commit to my rankings but it's not a guarantee that I'll be able to finish them this time around.

The games I picked for Magic;

Watch on YouTube

This game is fully available as a playlist though.
(I've always been kind of big on this game but this was the game Magic's offensive capabilities were at display to the maximum. The Lakers weren't functioning good and the tension between Magic and Riley wasn't helping. This was as valiant as it could get for Magic.)

Watch on YouTube

The games I picked for Shaq;

Watch on YouTube

It's kind of crazy that these 2 games were b2b.[/quote]

Have you tried emptying out of all thought. I mean really silencing your mind totally and completely?

70sFan · Post #4 » by **70sFan** » Thu Oct 7, 2021 8:38 pm

Top Shaq seasons:

2000
2001
2002
1998
1999
2003
1995
1994

Magic's best seasons:

1987
1990
1988
1989
1991
1986
1985

My list:

1. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal - clearly the best season in this comparison, unreal postseason performance.
2. 1987 Magic Johnson - a close comparison between 1987 and 2001. I think that Shaq peaked higher, but he had much lower lows than Magic ever had in 1987.
3. 2001 Shaquille O'Neal - Magic's defense in 1990 hurts his case a bit vs 2001 Shaq, but it's close.

4. 1990 Magic Johnson - my GOAT offensive season candidate. Simply the most complete version of Magic we've ever seen.
5. 1988 Magic Johnson - very close to the top 2 Magic seasons, some people blame him for slightly weaker RS scoring production but I don't find this problematic at all. He was still an outstanding scorer and it wasn't his most valuable trait.
6. 2002 Shaquille O'Neal - I could see a case for 1989 over 2002, but Magic's injury is too problematic to me here. Shaq had excellent postseason run after all, even if not as perfect as the top 2.

7. 1989 Magic Johnson - another ATG offensive performance from Magic, injury hurt his case a bit.
8. 1991 Magic Johnson - I know that Magic was a bad defender at this point, but his offense was as good as ever and Shaq's durability issues are too big for me to overcome.
9. 1998 Shaquille O'Neal - monster performace on per-possession basis, but missing so many games is a big no for me.

10. 1999 Shaquille O'Neal - Shaq defense was bad in this season, but it wasn't bad enough to exclude him from top 10.
11. 1986 Magic Johnson - the beginning of true Magic prime, improved jumpshot and post game are visible for anyone who is so much into watching old games as me

12. 2003 Shaquille O'Neal - another season with missed games and questionable defensive effort and missed games, but he was still a prime Lakers Shaq after all and I'd take that version of Shaq over pre-1986 Magic.

HM: 1985 Magic and 1995 Shaq

Another very close battle. It's not surprising to me - I have them next to each other on my all-time list. It's also clear that I value Magic's prime higher than Bird's and I know it's not a popular opinion.

Odinn21 · Post #5 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 1:58 am

70sFan wrote:2. 1987 Magic Johnson - a close comparison between 1987 and 2001. I think that Shaq peaked higher, but he had much lower lows than Magic ever had in 1987.
3. 2001 Shaquille O'Neal - Magic's defense in 1990 hurts his case a bit vs 2001 Shaq, but it's close.

I think I'll go the other way with 2001 O'Neal over 1987 Johnson. O'Neal was still the better defender despite a rather visible drop in level from the season before.
Did you consider the Lakers dominating one of the weakest conference competitions ever? I know that the Celtics were still a better team than any opponent the Lakers faced in 2001 (eyeing Derek Anderson's injury). But as a whole, don't you think that 2001 O'Neal had a strong enough ps run?
That weak 1987 WC competition always makes me hesitant about 1987 Magic.

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Btw, that 1990 Lakers/Suns game was quite tough to watch with the grainy footage. It was also the career playoff high for Magic from the line.
Watching the 1991 Lakers/Warriors game is feeling like an oasis in a desert right now. That game being great is part of it though. :lol:

I don't like Magic's defensive performances in both games.
Unrelated; Divac was a great addition to the team after Mychal Thompson. Much better flow in the post.

Djoker · Post #6 » by **Djoker** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 5:16 am

I wasn't sure about 2001 Shaq but that postseason was still on par with 2000 so I went with it at #2. After that it's pretty large drop-off to other Shaq years. I don't like his consistent lack of fitness missing games. On slightly worse teams having that kind of player can really backfire and put your team out of contention. Apart from laziness on defense, his rebounding also gets much worse outside of his peak. He is an absolute monster on the boards in 2000 and 2001 and not so great in other years.

Top 7 Magic Seasons:

1987
1990
1988
1989
1991
1985
1986

Top 7 Shaq Seasons:

2000
2001
1998
2002
1995
1999
1996

Top 12 Combined Seasons:

1. 2000 Shaq
2. 2001 Shaq
3. 1987 Magic
4. 1990 Magic
5. 1988 Magic
6. 1998 Shaq
7. 2002 Shaq
8. 1989 Magic
9. 1991 Magic
10. 1995 Shaq
11. 1999 Shaq
12. 1985 Magic

homecourtloss · Post #7 » by **homecourtloss** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 1:40 pm

1. 2000 Shaq: His best regular season and great PS run. Great effort on defense. One of his lower FTr during the regular season. Imagine if he had a higher one (though higher ones later related to hack a Shaq strategies) and had a decent FT shooting season. For me it’s clearly the best season between these two with his two way impact.
2. 2001 Shaq: Thought about this for a while, but Shaq’s 2001 post season run wins it firm me, though Kobe was also great in that run and played better than anyone did with Magic post prime Kareem. Basically a tie with 1987 Magic, but a slight nod ahead.
3. 1987 Magic: Lynchpin for all time great offense, great post season run.
4. 1990 Magic: Just so good on offense. The defense had noticeably began to slide. The final two games of the season against a very good Suns team show how good he was on offense as he tried to score the ball himself, which he did. 43 ppg on 67% TS, absolutely perfect rhythm control, using his natural movements to get into spots, bouncing off defense, scoring in the post, drawing fouls...an amazing player to watch.
5. 2002 Shaq: right underneath 2000 and 2001 Shaq
6. 1988 Magic
7. 1989 Magic
8. 1998 Shaq: Monster impact season despite his usual poor FT shooting. +15.7 per 100 estimated on court...that’s crazy. 1998 series vs. Jazz not his fault kind of like 1977 series vs. Blazers
9. 1986 Magic
10. 2003 Shaq
11. 1991 Magic: Lakers shouldn’t have been as good on offense as they were—it’s a testament to how good Magic was offensively. Vlade’s emergence as a strong defensive force helped bolster that defense that was top 5, but that Lakers team wasn’t as good as Portland but won the series (Portland kind of threw away games 1 and 6–Portland vs. Chicago would have been a better seriesj
12. 1999 Shaq

Odinn21 · Post #8 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 2:46 pm

Top 7 seasons for Magic Johnson;
1987
1988
1990
1989 (w/o the injury in the Finals, I think 1989 was clearly over 1990)
1991
1986
1985

Top 7 seasons for Shaquille O'Neal;
2000
2001
2002
1998
1999
2003
1995

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2. 2001 Shaquille O'Neal
3. 1987 Magic Johnson
4. 1988 Magic Johnson
5. 2002 Shaquille O'Neal
6. 1990 Magic Johnson
7. 1989 Magic Johnson
8. 1991 Magic Johnson
9. 1998 Shaquille O'Neal
10. 1999 Shaquille O'Neal
11. 1986 Magic Johnson
12. 2003 Shaquille O'Neal

Thoughts;
- 2000 Shaq is definitely #1 with the outlying peak he had.
- 2001 Shaq vs. 1987 Magic is a close call but I think Shaq's stronger defense and ps run are more important than the edges Magic has.
- 2002 Shaq loses out to 1988 Magic to with the durability issues he had. 2002 Shaq vs. 1990 Magic was the tougher comparison to make actually.
- 1989 Magic, 1991 Magic and 1998 Shaq are in a tier together. 1989 Magic and 1998 Shaq are impacted by injuries and not so keen on 1991 Magic's defense.
- In hindsight, I think I was a bit too generous to 1990 and 1991 versions of Magic for his defense. Not only he was declining on defense, he was a negative matchup for his team. Him not being able to keep track of an off-ball mover like Hornacek was part of the reasons why the Lakers weren't competitive in 1990 for instance and I was too generous to 1990 Magic in his 2 previous comparisons by putting him over 1966 Russell and 2005 Duncan.
- 1986 Magic usually feels more in line with his peak in the next season compared to 1999/2000 Shaq but decided to go with Shaq as he was looking like a slightly better player. I guess this is more telling about 2000 Shaq than 1999 Shaq.

Odinn21 · Post #9 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 3:00 pm

Magic Johnson vs. Shaquille O'Neal results;

Code: Select all

1.   60 points / 1.000 share / '00 Shaquille O'Neal
2.   54 points / 0.900 share / '01 Shaquille O'Neal
3.   51 points / 0.850 share / '87 Magic Johnson
4.   43 points / 0.717 share / '90 Magic Johnson
5.   39 points / 0.650 share / '88 Magic Johnson
6.   35 points / 0.583 share / '02 Shaquille O'Neal
7.   31 points / 0.517 share / '89 Magic Johnson
8.   21 points / 0.350 share / '98 Shaquille O'Neal
9.   20 points / 0.333 share / '91 Magic Johnson
10.  14 points / 0.233 share / '99 Shaquille O'Neal
11.  11 points / 0.183 share / '86 Magic Johnson
12.   7 points / 0.117 share / '03 Shaquille O'Neal
                               
13.   3 points / 0.050 share / '95 Shaquille O'Neal
14.   1 points / 0.017 share / '85 Magic Johnson

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Magic Johnson 39 - 39 Shaquille O'Neal

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Magic Johnson 195 - 191 Shaquille O'Neal

Winner: Magic Johnson

Results on Google Sheets

70sFan · Post #10 » by **70sFan** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 4:59 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:2. 1987 Magic Johnson - a close comparison between 1987 and 2001. I think that Shaq peaked higher, but he had much lower lows than Magic ever had in 1987.
3. 2001 Shaquille O'Neal - Magic's defense in 1990 hurts his case a bit vs 2001 Shaq, but it's close.

I think I'll go the other way with 2001 O'Neal over 1987 Johnson. O'Neal was still the better defender despite a rather visible drop in level from the season before.
Did you consider the Lakers dominating one of the weakest conference competitions ever? I know that the Celtics were still a better team than any opponent the Lakers faced in 2001 (eyeing Derek Anderson's injury). But as a whole, don't you think that 2001 O'Neal had a strong enough ps run?
That weak 1987 WC competition always makes me hesitant about 1987 Magic.

It's fair to point out Magic's weak competition in 1987 playoffs, but I view it differently. Magic proved during 1986-91 period that he was extremely resiliant against the best teams in the league, which makes me believe that his 1987 run wasn't the product of faced competition. On top of that, I find his RS performance clearly more impressive than 2001 Shaq.

Basically, I put peak Bird ahead of 2001 Shaq and I believe that Magic was slightly better player than Bird (I know you disagree).

By the way, is this the first tie of the project?

Odinn21 · Post #11 » by **Odinn21** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 9:08 pm

70sFan wrote:It's fair to point out Magic's weak competition in 1987 playoffs, but I view it differently. Magic proved during 1986-91 period that he was extremely resiliant against the best teams in the league, which makes me believe that his 1987 run wasn't the product of faced competition. On top of that, I find his RS performance clearly more impressive than 2001 Shaq.

Basically, I put peak Bird ahead of 2001 Shaq and I believe that Magic was slightly better player than Bird (I know you disagree).

By the way, is this the first tie of the project?

I actually do not mind the argument of the gap between rs performances being bigger than the gap between ps performances. Then again, 1987 Lakers had one of the worst Strength of Schedule ratings ever. So, I'm rather critical of the competition in rs too.

Yeah, this is the first tie. Before Dr Positivity's vote, Olajuwon vs. Bird was sitting at 372-378. That was the closest thing we had in the project.

His Dudeness · Post #12 » by **His Dudeness** » Fri Oct 8, 2021 10:18 pm

1. 1999-00 Shaquille O’Neal
2. 2000-01 Shaquille O’Neal
3. 1986-87 Magic Johnson
4. 1989-90 Magic Johnson
5. 1988-89 Magic Johnson
6. 1987-88 Magic Johnson
7. 2001-02 Shaquille O’Neal
8. 1998-99 Shaquille O’Neal
9. 1990-91 Magic Johnson
10. 1985-86 Magic Johnson
11. 2002-03 Shaquille O’Neal
12. 1997-98 Shaquille O’Neal

I missed the submission, but will still list my rankings and a few attached thoughts.

It was a tough call between ‘01 Shaq and ‘87 Magic, but Shaq’s playoffs (weak competition or no) were absolutely monstrous. Magic, on the other hand, has a very strong showing on this list with his four year peak taking the next four spots. Like Odinn said, if not for the injury, I’d be putting his ‘89 season ahead of ‘90. The difference is razor thin, but his offensive vision, ability to find and attack the defense’s weak points, and overall feel for the game are off the charts. Possibly the greatest offensive stretch from any player in league history.

In a previous comparison, I was higher on Shaq’s ‘95 season, but after watching a few games I realized that I was giving him too much credit on defense. His activity and mobility wasn’t used in a way that positively impacted the game near as much as his time in LA (beginning and tail end). With that said, I did give the nod to his ‘99 season over Magic in ‘91 and ‘86 despite the poor playoff showing. He did run into (old) Olajuwon and then peak Twin Towers, after all.