2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#441 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:34 pm

eminence wrote:I can't remember a decent team ever being as reliant on their bench as this Knicks teams. It's kinda nuts how bad lineups with the starters have been.

The Knicks are the most extreme but there are currently several teams who have solid records right now despite ineffective starters - Wizards, and most surprising of all the Mavs.


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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#442 » by Heej » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:02 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:I can't remember a decent team ever being as reliant on their bench as this Knicks teams. It's kinda nuts how bad lineups with the starters have been.

The Knicks are the most extreme but there are currently several teams who have solid records right now despite ineffective starters - Wizards, and most surprising of all the Mavs.


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At this point I'm convinced Rick Carlisle could cobble together a half decent bench using PC board regulars

Jk lol we would get smoked 3v5 by the worst 3 players in the league but Carlisle could give us a fighting chance.

Also someone mentioned how much Steph gets away with hacking on defense and I couldn't agree more. The new rules def favor guys that are strong at their position even if they're not the most agile defenders.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#443 » by falcolombardi » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:33 pm

Heej wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:I can't remember a decent team ever being as reliant on their bench as this Knicks teams. It's kinda nuts how bad lineups with the starters have been.

The Knicks are the most extreme but there are currently several teams who have solid records right now despite ineffective starters - Wizards, and most surprising of all the Mavs.


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At this point I'm convinced Rick Carlisle could cobble together a half decent bench using PC board regulars

Jk lol we would get smoked 3v5 by the worst 3 players in the league but Carlisle could give us a fighting chance.

Also someone mentioned how much Steph gets away with hacking on defense and I couldn't agree more. The new rules def favor guys that are strong at their position even if they're not the most agile defenders.


carlisle is no longer the mavs coach, is actually Jason kidd
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#444 » by Max123 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:05 am

It’s actually comical how bad the Lakers look (first game I’ve seen of them this season). No idea what they are doing on offense and the defense has also looked shaky.


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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#445 » by Fadeaway_J » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:23 am

Max123 wrote:It’s actually comical how bad the Lakers look (first game I’ve seen of them this season). No idea what they are doing on offense and the defense has also looked shaky.


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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#446 » by yoyoboy » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:34 am

Outside of some intelligent conversation on the PC board (and even here has dipped in quality a bit with some awesome posters leaving) and the draft board, this forum has really become a dumpster fire lately. Relating this to today, I'm so amazed that the consensus seems to be that LeBron was actually trying to hit Stewart in the face, knowing what we know about LeBron the past two decades where he's never tried to do anything like that after way worse fouls and hits he's received than a mere push on a FT rebound. And if you look at the video itself, it's very evident when LeBron swings backward he's not looking at Stewart and probably doesn't realize he's bending over like that, and is just trying to give him a stiff hit to his upper arm/chest area to make him stop grabbing him. It was reckless hit seeing that it landed on his face, but I absolutely don't think he was intentionally trying to punch Stewart there like that. Again, he's way too image-focused of a dude, doesn't lose his cool like that in general, and wouldn't legitimately try to get himself in a fight with a dude like Stewart, which is guaranteed to happen after a hit like that. Honestly considering leaving this place. Just feels like there are a lot of childish and toxic attitudes on here now that make the discussion a lot less fun than it used to be.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#447 » by Heej » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:20 am

falcolombardi wrote:
Heej wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:The Knicks are the most extreme but there are currently several teams who have solid records right now despite ineffective starters - Wizards, and most surprising of all the Mavs.


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At this point I'm convinced Rick Carlisle could cobble together a half decent bench using PC board regulars

Jk lol we would get smoked 3v5 by the worst 3 players in the league but Carlisle could give us a fighting chance.

Also someone mentioned how much Steph gets away with hacking on defense and I couldn't agree more. The new rules def favor guys that are strong at their position even if they're not the most agile defenders.


carlisle is no longer the mavs coach, is actually Jason kidd

Damn lol this is what I get for jumping back into keeping up with ball after checking out last year. Damn I do recall that now that you mention. Good for JKidd I suppose. Interesting tho, very interesting..thanks for informing me on that

And in regards to LeBron he was definitely pissed off in the moment and didn't care when he lashed out in that instant, but he did apologize immediately which counts for more.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#448 » by SeniorWalker » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:25 am

yoyoboy wrote:Outside of some intelligent conversation on the PC board (and even here has dipped in quality a bit with some awesome posters leaving) and the draft board, this forum has really become a dumpster fire lately. Relating this to today, I'm so amazed that the consensus seems to be that LeBron was actually trying to hit Stewart in the face, knowing what we know about LeBron the past two decades where he's never tried to do anything like that after way worse fouls and hits he's received than a mere push on a FT rebound. And if you look at the video itself, it's very evident when LeBron swings backward he's not looking at Stewart and probably doesn't realize he's bending over like that, and is just trying to give him a stiff hit to his upper arm/chest area to make him stop grabbing him. It was reckless hit seeing that it landed on his face, but I absolutely don't think he was intentionally trying to punch Stewart there like that. Again, he's way too image-focused of a dude, doesn't lose his cool like that in general, and wouldn't legitimately try to get himself in a fight with a dude like Stewart, which is guaranteed to happen after a hit like that. Honestly considering leaving this place. Just feels like there are a lot of childish and toxic attitudes on here now that make the discussion a lot less fun than it used to be.

There are a number of videos on realgm and other places which clearly show LeBron looking directly at Stewart while swinging backwards at him. Even if LeBron didn't mean to badly hurt him it was a intentional, dirty, and reckless play. LeBron having haters has nothing to do with the fact that he did what he did. We can admire a player and still be honest about them when they make mistakes.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#449 » by Max123 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:29 am

yoyoboy wrote:Outside of some intelligent conversation on the PC board (and even here has dipped in quality a bit with some awesome posters leaving) and the draft board, this forum has really become a dumpster fire lately. Relating this to today, I'm so amazed that the consensus seems to be that LeBron was actually trying to hit Stewart in the face, knowing what we know about LeBron the past two decades where he's never tried to do anything like that after way worse fouls and hits he's received than a mere push on a FT rebound. And if you look at the video itself, it's very evident when LeBron swings backward he's not looking at Stewart and probably doesn't realize he's bending over like that, and is just trying to give him a stiff hit to his upper arm/chest area to make him stop grabbing him. It was reckless hit seeing that it landed on his face, but I absolutely don't think he was intentionally trying to punch Stewart there like that. Again, he's way too image-focused of a dude, doesn't lose his cool like that in general, and wouldn't legitimately try to get himself in a fight with a dude like Stewart, which is guaranteed to happen after a hit like that. Honestly considering leaving this place. Just feels like there are a lot of childish and toxic attitudes on here now that make the discussion a lot less fun than it used to be.

This situation reminds me of the Doncic-Sexton incident last year.


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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#450 » by eminence » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:44 pm

How are folks divvying up credit to the Bulls so far? Who are their Allstars/All-NBA guys in your eyes?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#451 » by Fundamentals21 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 3:14 pm



Interesting to see how the rule changes have affected the game. I love them personally, wouldn't mind seeing more. I do think all the stars will bounce back one way or another, though.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#452 » by Statlanta » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:13 pm

eminence wrote:How are folks divvying up credit to the Bulls so far? Who are their Allstars/All-NBA guys in your eyes?

2 All-Star (DeRoazan/LaVine) no All-NBA. They are a team effort like the Suns with emphasis more on the new additions
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#453 » by jamaalstar21 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:16 pm

eminence wrote:How are folks divvying up credit to the Bulls so far? Who are their Allstars/All-NBA guys in your eyes?


I'm slow to give them credit haha. Even though when I watch them I quite like what I'm seeing. My brain has a calcified opinion on Demar Derozan, so it just breaks when I see his on-off of +23.7 (the highest on the team) after an entire career of negative by that number. He's also hitting a light diet of 3s, and not getting murdered on defense.

One thing I'll say about Demar is that, he's a much better decision-maker than Lavine. So having him and Lonzo Ball making a lot more of the Bulls decisions is really working for them. Not to say Lavine isn't playing well, in fact he looks better than ever thriving as less of a decision-maker, and more of a guy who is just too explosive and skilled for defenses to deal with in some situations. His assists and turnovers are down, which is a neutral thing for most players, but for me it means Lavine is doing more as a finisher and less as an initiator, and that's what you'd want from Lavine who has obvious crazy strengths and weaknesses. Derozan, even by the end of his time in Toronto was showing an ability to avoid making really bad plays (mostly by always knowing his kick out options). In San Antonio, he became a normal solid passer in all kinds of situations. I still don't think he knows how to hit a roll man, but that's fine because Chicago doesn't really have one.

I don't think any of it matters without their defense, which is still top 10, anchored by Alex Caruso off the bench, often pairing with Lonzo to be all point of attack. I just can't believe in this though. I get that Billy Donovan has a track record as a floor-raising defensive coach, but this is really weak defensive personnel on the wings and in the paint. Tony Bradley is grading out fine, but when I watch him I see so many blow-bys. My desperate take here is that Chicago's defense is benefitting by so many team offenses being out of whack to start the season. Tons of teams that were supposed to be offensive juggernauts are sputtering out of the gate due to poor shooting, trouble with the officiating, or often both. Chicago has only beat one good by the numbers offense (Utah), 3 decent offenses (Nets, Raps and Knicks x2), and have been thoroughly shredded by the other good offenses they've played (Golden State, Portland, Phili x2). The rest of their opponents are below average to start the season. Basically I think that point of attack heavy defense can fluster bad defenses enough, but a strong offense that can beat the point-of-attack can feast on Chicago's soft innards.

But maybe I'm just a hater who can't let go of some player-based prejudices. The offense looks awesome. Unselfish, decisive playmaking always looking for the juiciest perimeter point of weakness. Lavine's rim pressure, Ball's quick ball movement, Derozan filling in the gaps at the elbows just really make this offense always feel weaponized. Lavine and Derozan looks like surefire all-stars, and I don't think all-nba is truly out of the question if you really believe Derozan is going to keep shooting open 3s and not getting murdered defensively... Is Caruso also just one of the very best defensive guards in the NBA? Lakers defense has crumbled without him (and KCP), and so many metrics have loved Caruso for years now.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#454 » by Colbinii » Mon Nov 22, 2021 4:51 pm

eminence wrote:How are folks divvying up credit to the Bulls so far? Who are their Allstars/All-NBA guys in your eyes?


Both LaVine and DD are top 20-ish guys. I could see both being 3rd team all-nba with the higher probability going to LaVine.

Caruso will be all-defensive 1st team.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#455 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:49 pm

eminence wrote:How are folks divvying up credit to the Bulls so far? Who are their Allstars/All-NBA guys in your eyes?

Its interesting. I’ve been thinking about this for many teams philosophically. NY, Washington, and Dallas all are being carried by their bench, so what do you do with that?

For Chicago, DeRozan is the no-brainer (and let me take the opportunity to reiterate my surprise at this). The question then is between Lavine and Ball.

From a classical all-star perspective, this isn’t a debate: it will be Lavine. But I think you can make a strong case that Ball is the more valuable player.

In terms of All-NBA, I’d say DeRozan feels like he’d earn a spot on the 2nd team to this point, and definitely 3rd team at least.

All-D I’d support both of their former Lakers - Ball & Caruso.


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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#456 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:53 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
eminence wrote:How are folks divvying up credit to the Bulls so far? Who are their Allstars/All-NBA guys in your eyes?


I'm slow to give them credit haha. Even though when I watch them I quite like what I'm seeing. My brain has a calcified opinion on Demar Derozan, so it just breaks when I see his on-off of +23.7 (the highest on the team) after an entire career of negative by that number. He's also hitting a light diet of 3s, and not getting murdered on defense.

One thing I'll say about Demar is that, he's a much better decision-maker than Lavine. So having him and Lonzo Ball making a lot more of the Bulls decisions is really working for them. Not to say Lavine isn't playing well, in fact he looks better than ever thriving as less of a decision-maker, and more of a guy who is just too explosive and skilled for defenses to deal with in some situations. His assists and turnovers are down, which is a neutral thing for most players, but for me it means Lavine is doing more as a finisher and less as an initiator, and that's what you'd want from Lavine who has obvious crazy strengths and weaknesses. Derozan, even by the end of his time in Toronto was showing an ability to avoid making really bad plays (mostly by always knowing his kick out options). In San Antonio, he became a normal solid passer in all kinds of situations. I still don't think he knows how to hit a roll man, but that's fine because Chicago doesn't really have one.

I don't think any of it matters without their defense, which is still top 10, anchored by Alex Caruso off the bench, often pairing with Lonzo to be all point of attack. I just can't believe in this though. I get that Billy Donovan has a track record as a floor-raising defensive coach, but this is really weak defensive personnel on the wings and in the paint. Tony Bradley is grading out fine, but when I watch him I see so many blow-bys. My desperate take here is that Chicago's defense is benefitting by so many team offenses being out of whack to start the season. Tons of teams that were supposed to be offensive juggernauts are sputtering out of the gate due to poor shooting, trouble with the officiating, or often both. Chicago has only beat one good by the numbers offense (Utah), 3 decent offenses (Nets, Raps and Knicks x2), and have been thoroughly shredded by the other good offenses they've played (Golden State, Portland, Phili x2). The rest of their opponents are below average to start the season. Basically I think that point of attack heavy defense can fluster bad defenses enough, but a strong offense that can beat the point-of-attack can feast on Chicago's soft innards.

But maybe I'm just a hater who can't let go of some player-based prejudices. The offense looks awesome. Unselfish, decisive playmaking always looking for the juiciest perimeter point of weakness. Lavine's rim pressure, Ball's quick ball movement, Derozan filling in the gaps at the elbows just really make this offense always feel weaponized. Lavine and Derozan looks like surefire all-stars, and I don't think all-nba is truly out of the question if you really believe Derozan is going to keep shooting open 3s and not getting murdered defensively... Is Caruso also just one of the very best defensive guards in the NBA? Lakers defense has crumbled without him (and KCP), and so many metrics have loved Caruso for years now.

Great post with lots of juicy insight.

Wanted to specifically echo the shout out to Donovan. It bothered me a great deal the way people talked about him in OKC. I saw how his teams could look at Florida. The man knows basketball.

Now NBA fans are seeing it. Would be on my COY ballot to this point.


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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#457 » by falcolombardi » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:09 pm

lebron hit on stewart, jokic hit om morris among others were all dirty plays

players who are for the most part not dirty can make dirty plays in the heat of the moment and is fine to recognize and criticize it
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#458 » by falcolombardi » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:10 pm

Fundamentals21 wrote:

Interesting to see how the rule changes have affected the game. I love them personally, wouldn't mind seeing more. I do think all the stars will bounce back one way or another, though.


is just me or the video kinda proves harden has not been slowed down by lack of free throws but Taylor criticizes him for it anyway despite he literally showing otherwise?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#459 » by jamaalstar21 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:58 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Fundamentals21 wrote:

Interesting to see how the rule changes have affected the game. I love them personally, wouldn't mind seeing more. I do think all the stars will bounce back one way or another, though.


is just me or the video kinda proves harden has not been slowed down by lack of free throws but Taylor criticizes him for it anyway despite he literally showing otherwise?


In what way did the video kinda prove Harden has not been slowed down? Not sure what you mean.

Harden's FTr has caught up to where it has been in the past after a wild start. Taylor is pointing out the playtypes that aren't working for him anymore.

For what it's worth, Taylor is anti-Harden. He's made some really good points about him before (I remember specifically his podcast about Kobe vs. Wade vs. Harden pointing out Harden's stubborn rigidity to play his way even when it stops working). But he doesn't like helioccentrism and thinks it overrated players with counting stats. He's a huge fan of off-ball value and defense. So Harden isn't going to get too much love on the Thinking Basketball show.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#460 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:15 pm

jamaalstar21 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Fundamentals21 wrote:

Interesting to see how the rule changes have affected the game. I love them personally, wouldn't mind seeing more. I do think all the stars will bounce back one way or another, though.


is just me or the video kinda proves harden has not been slowed down by lack of free throws but Taylor criticizes him for it anyway despite he literally showing otherwise?


In what way did the video kinda prove Harden has not been slowed down? Not sure what you mean.

Harden's FTr has caught up to where it has been in the past after a wild start. Taylor is pointing out the playtypes that aren't working for him anymore.

For what it's worth, Taylor is anti-Harden. He's made some really good points about him before (I remember specifically his podcast about Kobe vs. Wade vs. Harden pointing out Harden's stubborn rigidity to play his way even when it stops working). But he doesn't like helioccentrism and thinks it overrated players with counting stats. He's a huge fan of off-ball value and defense. So Harden isn't going to get too much love on the Thinking Basketball show.

So wanted to chime in:

First as you say, the TB video was pointing out what specifically wasn’t getting called, and with Harden there were a lot of moves. It was not a statement that Harden was “done”. It wasn’t a statement of how Harden will now be forever crippled. It was a statement of what wasn’t working right now, which of course also implies that Harden would be wise to change his approach.

Second, I think we need to be careful with the labels we place on people. It’s fine to think Taylor underrates Harden when he evaluates players holistically due to beliefs he has about the game of basketball. It’s also fine to think that Taylor has been polarized in some direction here due to arguments in the basketball world that he ends up on one side of - I think we all need to assume this is happening to each and everyone one of us.

But Taylor’s agenda is to give correct basketball knowledge, not manipulate opinions of specific basketball players. Others in the media are different because their jobs are different. Taylor’s brand though suffers if people think all of his analysis is just a front to fandom.

I’d also say that Taylor recognizing that heliocentric play tends to increase the helio’s production regardless of whether it improves his impact is just plain a basketball truth, and it’s not the same as saying it’s a bad team basketball strategy or that you don’t like watching basketball played with this approach.


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