[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between Shaquille O'Neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:00 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

---

Spoiler:

Gregoire · Post #2 » by **Gregoire** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:45 pm

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 00 Shaq
2. 93 Hakeem
3. 01 Shaq
4. 94 Hakeem
5. 95 Hakeem
6. 98 Shaq
7. 02 Shaq
8. 95 Shaq
9. 90 Hakeem
10. 89 Hakeem
11. 99 Shaq
12. 05 Shaq

homecourtloss · Post #3 » by **homecourtloss** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:43 pm

1. 2000 Shaq: His best regular season and great PS run. Great effort on defense. One of his lower FTr during the regular season. Imagine if he had a higher one (though higher ones later related to hack a Shaq strategies) and had a decent FT shooting season. For me it’s the best season between these two with his two way impact.
2. 2001 Shaq: Thought about this for a while, but Shaq’s 2001 post season run wins it for me, though Kobe was also great in that run and played better than anyone did with Hakeem ever obviously.
3. 1993 Hakeem — peak Hakeem with a refined offensive game and still athleticism of prime and active on defense. Honestly, these peak Hakeem years are very close to Shaq’s.
4. 1994 Hakeem — very close to 1993 Hakeem, known monster impact, the Rockets played like a lottery team without him on court, and decent with everyone else off court as long as Hakeem was there.
5. 2002 Shaq: right underneath 2000 and 2001 Shaq
6. 1995 Hakeem — Defense falls off a bit but the offense against good teams in that legendary playoff run. Great on-off impact as per usual.
7. 1998 Shaq: Monster impact season despite his usual poor FT shooting. +15.7 per 100 estimated on court...that’s crazy. 1998 series vs. Jazz not his fault kind of like 1977 series vs. Blazers
8. 2003 Shaq
9. 1989 Hakeem: Peak defensive Hakeem.
10. 1999 Shaq
11. 1997 Hakeem — strong playoff run makes it stronger than 1996 which was better in the regular season
12. 2004 Shaq — moving this season ahead of 1995 Shaq that I had before. Didn’t play as many games , but that 2004 Lakers team struggled with him off court and he was doing an awful lot of carrying when one wouldn’t expect it.

70sFan · Post #4 » by **70sFan** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 8:52 pm

Top Shaq seasons:

2000
2001
2002
1998
1999
2003
1995
1994

Hakeem's top seasons:

1993
1994
1995
1989
1990
1987
1997
1996
1986

My list:

1. 1993 Hakeem Olajuwon - probably the most surprising pick in this thread, I'll be probably the only one who has Hakeem ahead of Shaq peak-wise. I'm not super comfortable with my decision, but I've seen 35 games of peak Hakeem and around 20 games of peak Shaq within last 4 months and Hakeem's defensive edge is so massive that I don't believe it can be neutralized by Shaq's superior offense. Don't get me wrong, Shaq was clearly better offensively but unlike Kareem, his defense was tiers below Hakeem.
2. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon - very close to 1993, with slightly weaker defensive motor.

3. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal - probably the best offensive season in this comparison, monstrous postseason and great effort throughout the whole season.
4. 2001 Shaquille O'Neal - just as good in the playoffs as 2000 version, but worse RS.

5. 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon - very close between 1995 and 2002, but Hakeem played better in playoffs.
6. 2002 Shaquille O'Neal - excellent playoffs, inconsistent RS.

7. 1989 Hakeem Olajuwon - Hakeem's peak on defensive end, can't see non-peak Shaq overcomming that.
8. 1990 Hakeem Olajuwon - very similar season to 1989.
9. 1998 Shaquille O'Neal - could be higher, but missed a lot of games in RS. His defensive effort wasn't very consistent either.
10. 1999 Shaquille O'Neal - bad defense, but excellent offense. I prefer this season over any pre-1989 version of Hakeem.

11. 1987 Hakeem Olajuwon - less refined on both ends of the floor, but unreal motor.
12. 2003 Shaquille O'Neal - close between 2003 and 1997, but Shaq was always a better offensive player than Hakeem while 1997 Olajuwon wasn't ATG defender anymore.

HM: 1997 Hakeem

I'd like to see more lists in this one. I know that a lot of people will disagree with my choices

confucius · Post #5 » by **confucius** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:07 pm

My List:

1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal: Arguably the greatest offensive season ever.
2000-01 Shaquille O'Neal
1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon: Hakeem's clear-cut peak of being balanced.
1997-98 Shaquille O'Neal: Didn't play as many games, but certainly was important to the success of the team when he played.
1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
2001-02 Shaquille O'Neal
1988-89 Hakeem Olajuwon: Hakeem's best defensive season.
1998-99 Shaquille O'Neal
2002-03 Shaquille O'Neal
1994-95 Shaquille O'Neal: Young Shaq and Penny were a fun duo, and got beat by the Rockets 4-0 in the Finals, but Shaq was so incredibly impressive.
1994-95 Hakeem Olajuwon
1989-90 Hakeem Olajuwon

Odinn21 · Post #6 » by **Odinn21** » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:45 pm

The games I picked for this round;

Watch on YouTube

The video quality in the last one is a bit rough but you gotta love Don Nelson as a sideline analyst and Craig Sager in front of the camera.

Djoker · Post #7 » by **Djoker** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:27 am

I consider Shaq's peak better than Hakeem's because Shaq at his peak was a really good defender and at least a whole tier ahead offensively primarily due to both his gravity and better passing. As far as other prime seasons go, I may also lean towards Shaq for this reason although in many seasons Hakeem is a whole tier ahead defensively so it is definitely close. And Hakeem also played more games in a lot of regular season and didn't have conditioning issues.

Top 7 Hakeem Seasons:

1994
1993
1995
1988
1989
1990
1987

Top 7 Shaq Seasons:

2000
2001
1998
2002
1995
1999
1996

Top 12 Combined Seasons

2000 Shaq
2001 Shaq
1994 Hakeem
1993 Hakeem
1995 Hakeem
1998 Shaq
2002 Shaq
1988 Hakeem
1989 Hakeem
1990 Hakeem
1995 Shaq
1999 Shaq

Odinn21 · Post #8 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:25 am

confucius wrote:My List:

1999-00 Shaquille O'Neal: Arguably the greatest offensive season ever.
2000-01 Shaquille O'Neal
1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon: Hakeem's clear-cut peak of being balanced.
1997-98 Shaquille O'Neal: Didn't play as many games, but certainly was important to the success of the team when he played.
1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
2001-02 Shaquille O'Neal
1988-89 Hakeem Olajuwon: Hakeem's best defensive season.
1998-99 Shaquille O'Neal
2002-03 Shaquille O'Neal
1994-95 Shaquille O'Neal: Young Shaq and Penny were a fun duo, and got beat by the Rockets 4-0 in the Finals, but Shaq was so incredibly impressive.
1994-95 Hakeem Olajuwon
1989-90 Hakeem Olajuwon

This is a bit too wild, don't you think?

It's too hard for me to see 1998 O'Neal over 1994 Olajuwon. This project is not only about potential there was, so we recognise importance of missed games but even further, it's very much doubtful that 1998 O'Neal was a better player than 1994 Olajuwon on sheer merits.
Having O'Neal over Olajuwon 1995 didn't sit right with me. Individually Shaq did a lot better than what would 4-0 sweep would suggest but I think you're overcorrecting. 1995 Olajuwon is probably the peak Olajuwon on offense, the gap on offense is probably far closer than you think and there's a massive gap on D.
Another thing I'm struggling to see is 1989 Olajuwon so high with his defensive peak at #7 and even better defensive performance at #12, barely making the cut. I don't see how 1989 and 1990 are in different tiers, 4 games of ps run is hardly telling when the superstar's push power is the reason why a subpar team makes the playoffs. But assuming you have 1989 that far ahead due to postseason performance, why is 1995 Olajuwon that low? Having 1989 version in at least 1, probably 2 tiers ahead of 1990 and 1995 versions at the same time doesn't make much sense tbh.
Having 1995 O'Neal over 1990/1995 Olajuwon, and then having 1989 Olajuwon over 1995/1999/2003 O'Neal is looking pretty inconsistent.

70sFan · Post #9 » by **70sFan** » Mon Oct 11, 2021 6:06 pm

I just rewatched game 1 of 2000 WCF, damn Shaq was so good in this game. Obviously, people remember the hack-a-Shaq at the end of the game (that was completely unsuccessful) but Shaq's off-ball movement and decision making were on the highest level in that game.

It's absolutely one of his finest performances I've ever seen. Even on defensive end he didn't commit as many mistakes as usual (though I "credited" him for 5 bad rotations and 2 weak contests, but he was quite good overall).

https://youtu.be/ECnhc-CzQzs

Also, Sabonis was completely hopeless against Shaq in this game. I think that some people overstate Arvydas ability to guard Shaq and I say this as his big fan.

His Dudeness · Post #10 » by **His Dudeness** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:16 am

1. 1999-00 Shaquille O’Neal
2. 1992-93 Hakeem Olajuwon
3. 2000-01 Shaquille O’Neal
4. 1993-94 Hakeem Olajuwon
5. 2001-02 Shaquille O’Neal
6. 1994-95 Hakeem Olajuwon
7. 1998-99 Shaquille O’Neal
8. 1988-89 Hakeem Olajuwon
9. 1989-90 Hakeem Olajuwon
10. 2002-03 Shaquille O’Neal
11.1997-98 Shaquille O’Neal
12. 1987-88 Hakeem Olajuwon

‘93 Olajuwon, ‘94 Olajuwon, and ‘01 Shaq are all in the same tier, and not easily separated. I gave ‘93 Hakeem the edge due to consistent impact in the regular season and playoffs. For me, though, the most difficult placement was the 12 spot. It could have gone to a handful of seasons from either player, but it primarily came down to ‘88 Hakeem and ‘95 Shaq. Hakeem got the nod, despite being a year away from his defensive peak. The bright spots he showed in the regular season and especially the playoff series with Dallas fully cemented him as the best big in the game and provided the blueprint for his impact over the following decade.

Odinn21 · Post #11 » by **Odinn21** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:52 am

Top 7 seasons for Shaquille O'Neal;
2000
2001
2002
1998
1999
2003
1995

Top 7 seasons for Hakeem Olajuwon;
1994
1993
1995
1990
1989
1997
1987

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 2000 Shaquille O'Neal
2. 1994 Hakeem Olajuwon
3. 1993 Hakeem Olajuwon
4. 2001 Shaquille O'Neal
5. 2002 Shaquille O'Neal
6. 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon
7. 1998 Shaquille O'Neal
8. 1999 Shaquille O'Neal
9. 2003 Shaquille O'Neal
10. 1990 Hakeem Olajuwon
11. 1989 Hakeem Olajuwon
12. 1997 Hakeem Olajuwon

My thoughts;
- Even though I tend to take Olajuwon's 1994 as somewhat of an outlier, O'Neal's 2000 is even more. His single season peak rates higher for me but that drop in defense in 2001 is quite important in a comparison of the next best seasons.
- 2002 O'Neal vs. 1995 Olajuwon was particularly tough to decide on. Normally O'Neal's 2002 is one of the seasons I'm rather harsh on with the number of missed games but O'Neal played 67 games and Olajuwon played 72 games in those 2 seasons. So, there's not a major difference in playtime. O'Neal bounced back on D (D-RAPM for reference, he was in top 7% in 2000, then 20% in 2001, 5% in 2002). Olajuwon had his offensive peak season. As you know, I go with stronger suit vs. stronger suit, and the vice versa. I think Olajuwon regressing on D is the deciding factor between the two. The edge O'Neal's offense has on Olajuwon's defense is looking slightly bigger than the edge Olajuwon's offense has on O'Neal's defense.
- The rest felt pretty chaotic as well. The only placement I'm confident in is 1997 Olajuwon rounding up the 12.
On one hand, I've always been harsh on O'Neal's durability issues. On the other hand, I also always have been harsh on Olajuwon's offensive game with his tunnel vision tendencies taking away from ball movement before Rudy T's arrival. I wouldn't object to any order between 1998/1999/2003 O'Neal and 1989/1990 Olajuwon. At the moment, this is what I have.

This is basically 56:44 in favour of O'Neal. To me, that looks right even though I wouldn't mind anything closer to 50:50. Though I guess this is the best O'Neal is going to do in a comparison to Olajuwon. Anything beyond 56:44 might be too generous to O'Neal.

Odinn21 · Post #12 » by **Odinn21** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:11 am

70sFan wrote:...

Hakeem Olajuwon is probably the player we like and agree as context but not in rankings and such.

Our results are identical in different directions.
I have O'Neal ahead with 44-34.
You have Olajuwon ahead with 44-34.
:lol:

I think we both went the absolute highest gap there could be between these 2 players. I think anything more than 44-34 for either is just too much and we're showcasing the situation.

70sFan · Post #13 » by **70sFan** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:42 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
70sFan wrote:...

Hakeem Olajuwon is probably the player we like and agree as context but not in rankings and such.
Our results are identical in different directions.
I have O'Neal ahead with 44-34.
You have Olajuwon ahead with 44-34.

Yeah, we usually have very similar thoughts about Hakeem, but this time there is a clear difference in our lists. I think it's caused by my evaluation of Shaq defense. I'm just not impressed by even his peak defensive season and he usually was clearly below his 2000 self on that end. I think that's bigger concern than Hakeem's one dimensional offense pre-1993, though both are important to evaluate these players rightfully.

I think we both went the absolute highest gap there could be between these 2 players. I think anything more than 44-34 for either is just too much and we're showcasing the situation.

I think you're right, these two should be very close regadless of your criteria (as long as you have reasonable criteria of course). That's why I have them so close on my all-time list as well (7th and 8th).

sansterre · Post #14 » by **sansterre** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 2:39 pm

1. 2000 Shaq - It's one of the best seasons ever for a reason.
2. 1993 Hakeem
3. 2001 Shaq - A regular-season heavy ranking would have him lower, but his postseason performance was characteristically dominant.
4. 1994 Hakeem
5. 2002 Shaq
6. 1989 Hakeem - Hakeem's pre-championship days were still excellent
7. 1990 Hakeem
8. 1995 Hakeem
9. 1998 Shaq
10. 1995 Shaq
11. 1999 Shaq
12. 2003 Shaq

The hard part is that Shaq's prime was so next-level dominant on offense, and he actually was pretty solid on defense many years except for in 2001. And Hakeem's defense is easy to underestimate, but his offensive game was not particularly strong until you got into the playoffs (and the early 90s). But a subtle downside to Hakeem is that when he was younger what he lacked in scoring and passing he made up for in monster offensive rebounding. And when he was older he could score better and pass better, but his presence on the offensive glass seriously dried up. If all of those could have been combined I think Hakeem's peak could have topped Shaq's.

Odinn21 · Post #15 » by **Odinn21** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:00 pm

Shaquille O'Neal vs. Hakeem Olajuwon results;

Code: Select all

1.   70 points / 0.972 share / '00 Shaquille O'Neal
2.   63 points / 0.875 share / '93 Hakeem Olajuwon
3.   60 points / 0.833 share / '01 Shaquille O'Neal
4.   59 points / 0.819 share / '94 Hakeem Olajuwon
5.   45 points / 0.625 share / '02 Shaquille O'Neal
6.   42 points / 0.583 share / '95 Hakeem Olajuwon
7.   29 points / 0.403 share / '98 Shaquille O'Neal
8.   28 points / 0.389 share / '89 Hakeem Olajuwon
9.   21 points / 0.292 share / '90 Hakeem Olajuwon
10.  20 points / 0.278 share / '99 Shaquille O'Neal
11.  14 points / 0.194 share / '03 Shaquille O'Neal
12.   6 points / 0.083 share / '88 Hakeem Olajuwon
                               
13.   5 points / 0.069 share / '95 Shaquille O'Neal
14.   3 points / 0.042 share / '97 Hakeem Olajuwon
15.   2 points / 0.028 share / '87 Hakeem Olajuwon
16.   1 points / 0.014 share / '04 Shaquille O'Neal

Points within top 12 seasons voted;
Shaquille O'Neal 41 - 37 Hakeem Olajuwon

Points totals in top 12 seasons voted;
Shaquille O'Neal 238 - 219 Hakeem Olajuwon

Winner: Shaquille O'Neal

Results on Google Sheets

70sFan · Post #16 » by **70sFan** » Tue Oct 12, 2021 3:37 pm

Another very close one. The next one could cause some heated discussions between Bird and Magic fans.

No-more-rings · Post #17 » by **No-more-rings** » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:35 pm

People in here are lower on 95 Shaq than I expected. I always assumed it was like a top 6 lock of his, with only 99, and 00-03 having strong arguments. I mean in 98 missing 22 games and you're team going 15-7 without you and ending the season in a sweep isn't particularly a good look imo when we're talking about his and Hakeem's greatest years.