RealGM

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;


---

James best seasons:

2012
2009
2013
2016
2014
2017
2010
2018
2020

Wilt's best seasons:

1967
1964
1968
1962
1965
1966
1963
1960

I hope to get new Wilt footage from 1962 and 1968 tomorrow, so I'll wait with my list before getting them. For now though, the list are split into tiers:

Tier A: 1967/1964 Wilt vs 2012/2009 James
Tier B: 2013/2016 James
Tier C: 1968/1962 Wilt vs 2014/2017/2010 James
Tier D: 1965 Wilt vs 2018 James
Tier E: 1966 Wilt vs 2020 James

Would you agree with that?

My list of top 12 seasons between the two;
1. 67 Wilt
2. 12 James
3. 64 Wilt
4. 09 James
5. 13 James
6. 16 James
7. 68 Wilt
8. 62 Wilt
9. 17 James
10. 66 Wilt
11. 18 James
12. 72 Wilt

HM: 10 James, 20 James, 69 Wilt, 71 Wilt

70sFan wrote:I hope to get new Wilt footage from 1962 and 1968 tomorrow, so I'll wait with my list before getting them. For now though, the list are split into tiers:

Tier A: 1967/1964 Wilt vs 2012/2009 James
Tier B: 2013/2016 James
Tier C: 1968/1962 Wilt vs 2014/2017/2010 James
Tier D: 1965 Wilt vs 2018 James
Tier E: 1966 Wilt vs 2020 James

Would you agree with that?

The scenes when I put 1962 Chamberlain in the same tier as 2009 James. (Joking, not going to happen. )

I think this is how my tiers will look like;
1967 Chamberlain
1964 Chamberlain & 2009/2012/2013 James
1962/1968 Chamberlain & 2014/2016 James
2010/2017 James
1965 Chamberlain vs. 2011/2020 James for the last spot

Top 7 Lebron Seasons:

2009
2012
2016
2013
2017
2018
2020

Top 7 Wilt Seasons:

1967
1964
1968
1965
1962
1966
1972

I'm still thinking about how to rank their seasons. I plan to give the #1 spot to 1967 Wilt but I think it will end up close to even overall.

70sFan wrote:James best seasons:

2012
2009
2013
2016
2014
2017
2010
2018
2020

Wilt's best seasons:

1967
1964
1968
1962
1965
1966
1963
1960

I hope to get new Wilt footage from 1962 and 1968 tomorrow, so I'll wait with my list before getting them. For now though, the list are split into tiers:

Tier A: 1967/1964 Wilt vs 2012/2009 James
Tier B: 2013/2016 James
Tier C: 1968/1962 Wilt vs 2014/2017/2010 James
Tier D: 1965 Wilt vs 2018 James
Tier E: 1966 Wilt vs 2020 James

Would you agree with that?

why the Gap between 2012 and 2013?

the way i see it 2013 is the slightly but clearly more impressive regular season

their numbers are similar enough, 2012 has more volume and free throws but 2013 is very significatively more efficient, with better jumpshot (more 3pt% in bigger volume too) and the advanced stats are fairly comparable

in playoffs lebron still shot better in 2013 so i find the notion that he struggled with his jumper relative to 2012 questionable, the volume in 2012 playoffs is bigger but the efficiency in 2013 is better and so is his jumpshot %'a

2012 was taken to 7 by boston and 2013 by pacers, both strong but not that great teams, 2012 was with a incomplete team but 2013 was with a post prime and often struggling wade

up to this point i would say 2013 has been a bit better even if by a slight Margin, he struggled in the first half of the finals but is that half series enough to overcome the regular season edge (and then some ) to move 2012 into a wholly different tier?

also considering spurs played a better scheme and personal against lebron (kawhi, not having a perkins to exploit, the difference between 2012 and 2013 wade)

Djoker wrote: I plan to give the #1 spot to 1967 Wilt but I think it will end up close to even overall.

Nobody was ever better or more valuable or more complete than Wilt in 1967, IMHO.

‪1. '09 LeBron — the impact numbers in both RS and PS and the carry job of a that cast to 66 wins and an 8+ SRS. ‬
2. ‘67 Wilt - Also in contention for GOAT season. Played differently, chsnged shot selection, played more of a power game, scored or was fouled, FT% wasn’t good unfortunately, dominated defensively and was a very good playmaker.
3. ‪ ‘12 LeBron — high motor impact throughout RS and PS and incredibly robust overall game ‬
4. ‘13 LeBron — same as ‘12, 27 game win streak, playoffs impact metrics not as good, but much of that has to do with playing with an injured Wade who wasn’t very good in the playoffs.
5. ‘64 Wilt - couldn’t quite pick this season over ‘12 or ‘13 LeBron, but this crazy one of a kind season deserves a spot.
6. ‘‪16 LeBron — Regular season not as good but highest possible level vs. 73 win team. Unbelievably low FTr even though shot more at the rim than in any other season. More calls there and season moves up ‬
7. ‘68 Wilt - Shame he got injured in the playoffs it Wilt is incredible this season
8. ‪‘17 LeBron — offensive mastery of game in playoffs, and only literally the GOAT team could stop him from winning a title. I think this is his offensive peak but regular season not as good ‬
9. ‘62 Wilt - Close to 1964 Wilt
10. ‪‘10 LeBron — Don’t feel right placing him this far down since metrics close to 2009 metrics but playoffs not as subli‬me
11. ‘65 Wilt —Too close to those 1962, 1964 seasons to ignore
12. ‘‪20 LeBron — highly underrated season‬

Top 12 Combined Seasons:

1. 1967 Wilt
2. 2009 Lebron
3. 2012 Lebron
4. 1964 Wilt
5. 1968 Wilt
6. 2016 Lebron
7. 2013 Lebron
8. 1965 Wilt
9. 1962 Wilt
10. 2017 Lebron
11. 2018 Lebron
12. 1966 Wilt

Djoker wrote:Top 12 Combined Seasons:

1. 1967 Wilt
2. 2009 Lebron
3. 2012 Lebron
4. 1964 Wilt
5. 1968 Wilt
6. 2016 Lebron
7. 2013 Lebron
8. 1965 Wilt
9. 1962 Wilt
10. 2017 Lebron
11. 2018 Lebron
12. 1966 Wilt

why the sizable Gap between 16-17? i know he played worse defense in the finals but his offense was a step above even 2016, i dont think lebron and cavs played any worse basketball than 2016

falcolombardi wrote:

Djoker wrote:Top 12 Combined Seasons:

1. 1967 Wilt
2. 2009 Lebron
3. 2012 Lebron
4. 1964 Wilt
5. 1968 Wilt
6. 2016 Lebron
7. 2013 Lebron
8. 1965 Wilt
9. 1962 Wilt
10. 2017 Lebron
11. 2018 Lebron
12. 1966 Wilt

why the sizable Gap between 16-17? i know he played worse defense in the finals but his offense was a step above even 2016, i dont think lebron and cavs played any worse basketball than 2016

Saying he played worse defense is an understatement. Lebron played his very best defense in the 2016 finals and was absolutely awful defensively in the 2017 finals.

falcolombardi wrote:

70sFan wrote:James best seasons:

2012
2009
2013
2016
2014
2017
2010
2018
2020

Wilt's best seasons:

1967
1964
1968
1962
1965
1966
1963
1960

I hope to get new Wilt footage from 1962 and 1968 tomorrow, so I'll wait with my list before getting them. For now though, the list are split into tiers:

Tier A: 1967/1964 Wilt vs 2012/2009 James
Tier B: 2013/2016 James
Tier C: 1968/1962 Wilt vs 2014/2017/2010 James
Tier D: 1965 Wilt vs 2018 James
Tier E: 1966 Wilt vs 2020 James

Would you agree with that?

why the Gap between 2012 and 2013?

the way i see it 2013 is the slightly but clearly more impressive regular season

their numbers are similar enough, 2012 has more volume and free throws but 2013 is very significatively more efficient, with better jumpshot (more 3pt% in bigger volume too) and the advanced stats are fairly comparable

in playoffs lebron still shot better in 2013 so i find the notion that he struggled with his jumper relative to 2012 questionable, the volume in 2012 playoffs is bigger but the efficiency in 2013 is better and so is his jumpshot %'a

2012 was taken to 7 by boston and 2013 by pacers, both strong but not that great teams, 2012 was with a incomplete team but 2013 was with a post prime and often struggling wade

up to this point i would say 2013 has been a bit better even if by a slight Margin, he struggled in the first half of the finals but is that half series enough to overcome the regular season edge (and then some ) to move 2012 into a wholly different tier?

also considering spurs played a better scheme and personal against lebron (kawhi, not having a perkins to exploit, the difference between 2012 and 2013 wade)

I'll answer it quickly - James was more agressive and more physically imposing in 2012 playoffs. I don't base it soley on the finals performance, but on the whole postseason run. Besides, James struggled against the Spurs because his jumpshot wasn't falling. In contrary, 2012 James dominated ATG defenses without jumpshot throughout the whole playoffs. It's fair to say that Spurs were a bigger obstacle for him to overcome, but I don't think 2012 James would struggle to the same degree.

It's true that Wade was considerably worse in 2013, but on the other hand Bosh was injured in 2012 and he was critical part of 2013 team.

I agree that James peaked higher in 2013 RS, but it's not like he was much worse in 2012. 2012 is simply more complete season in my opinion.

For James, it's the inconsistency during the 2013 playoffs compared to 2012. It was visible and obvious at the time. It's still visible in numbers.
(the games in the following graphs are after the 1st rounds)

Some basic graphs;
NBA.com's PIE (PIE is a better metric than the other 2 because it accounts for playtime)


BBRef's GmSc


Good ol' EFF


I know it's tempting to look at the slopes themselves but it's the residuals to the slopes that matter to evaluate consistency and 2012 is the clear winner.

How long will the voting be open? Unfortunately, workers in the archive didn't transfer the reels I'm waiting for and I'll probably get them at the begining of the next week

ty 4191 wrote:

Djoker wrote: I plan to give the #1 spot to 1967 Wilt but I think it will end up close to even overall.

Nobody was ever better or more valuable or more complete than Wilt in 1967, IMHO.

Read on Twitter

I love 1967 Wilt but I hate how his efficiency dropped by 9% in the playoffs (fueled, in part, by shooting 38.8% from the line).

In the regular season he used 16.9% of his team's shots at +14.4% rTS, which is slightly low volume but insane efficiency.

In the playoffs it dropped to 16.4% of his team's shots at +5.3% rTS (not adjusted for opposition). Obviously he played 11 of 15 against Russell/Thurmond (which doesn't do him any favors) but it's hard to hold up a guy shooting below 40% from the line as a paragon of all-around play.

Odinn21 wrote:For James, it's the inconsistency during the 2013 playoffs compared to 2012. It was visible and obvious at the time. It's still visible in numbers.
(the games in the following graphs are after the 1st rounds)

Some basic graphs;
NBA.com's PIE (PIE is a better metric than the other 2 because it accounts for playtime)


BBRef's GmSc


Good ol' EFF


I know it's tempting to look at the slopes themselves but it's the residuals to the slopes that matter to evaluate consistency and 2012 is the clear winner.

Yes—this is why I rank ‘13 Lebron lower than ‘12 Lebron even though I think ‘13 is a better player. I wrote about this before, but it’s strange how James often adds to his game and the nurses and successfully and then we don’t see it again like the the little floater he was using in ‘12.

But I see some mitigating factors. The Lebron+Wade pairing in ‘12 regular season, in the ‘12 playoffs, in the ‘13 regular season was highly effective. Wade’s injury and then inability to shoot killed the Heat in 2013.

James played 301 minutes in the Finals

230 minutes with Wade: -12.4 per 100 possessions; how the Heat didn’t lose the Finals looking at this number is a miracle.

LeBron’s 71 minutes without Wade: +37.7 per 100 possessions.

Heat with Wade off court in 2013 Finals: +28.8

2013 James total playoff minutes:
960 minutes
109.9 ORtg 103.0 DRtg, +6.9 per 100

James with Wade:
678 minutes
105.0 ORtg 104.5 DRtg, +.5 per 100

James without Wade:
282 minutes
+22.6 per 100

homecourtloss wrote:

Odinn21 wrote:...

...

Probably as you know, I don't put much stock into ps +/- numbers and swings.
Fwiw, to me, those numbers are more about Wade being bad or worse than James being good or better if we're to interpret them in the way you presented.
I definitely see the point of "James was compensating for Wade's diminishing value" pov. But I don't think the situation was big as much as those numbers might suggest.

there is an argument to be made that wade was hardly a positive overall in 2013 playoffs

i know bosh missed ganes in 2012 but wade was mostly innefective all of 2013 playoffs

falcolombardi wrote:there is an argument to be made that wade was hardly a positive overall in 2013 playoffs

i know bosh missed ganes in 2012 but wade was mostly innefective all of 2013 playoffs

Miami team was far better in 2013 than 2012 outside of the big 3 for what it's worth.

70sFan wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:there is an argument to be made that wade was hardly a positive overall in 2013 playoffs

i know bosh missed ganes in 2012 but wade was mostly innefective all of 2013 playoffs

Miami team was far better in 2013 than 2012 outside of the big 3 for what it's worth.

Not only that, Wade being far from his best and also ideal level of play is not necessarily him being not a positive player. He was still a clear positive during 2013 playoffs. He certainly was not the Flash any more but that doesn't mean he was hardly a positive player.

I mean, what I don't get is that Wade's performance against the Celtics in 2012 was just as bad as the 2013 NBA Finals series, on top of that, Bosh effectively played two and a half games in a full 7 game series. But are we really going at only 2013 Wade?..

The reason why it took 7 games for the Heat to beat the Celtics in 2012 was Wade's not so good performance and Bosh not being in the series basically.
The reason why it took 7 games for the Heat to beat the Spurs in 2013* was Wade's not so good performance and James' below average performances in the first 3 games.
*: The Heat got better as a roster in 2013 but 2013 Spurs were a better team than 2012 Celtics, so, they kind of negate each other.

Wade's performances in both series were pretty similar...