[Project:Primes of the top 10 ever] List the top 12 seasons between LeBron James vs. Michael Jordan

Odinn21 · Post #1 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:03 pm

Hello.

Link to the project idea thread.

The project will contain 1v1 comparisons between the top 10 ever in the latest 3 top 100 project on RealGM which are LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Wilt Chamberlain, Magic Johnson, Shaquille O'Neal, Hakeem Olajuwon and Larry Bird.
There are 45 possibilities of 2 in 10, the project will have 90 days period to be concluded.

Things to follow;
- Reg. season and postseason play, both are included in evaluations.
- A simple 12/11/.../2/1 point system will be used for the project.
Evaluations will be based on the seasons, not the players direclty as an outcome of a single vote.
- Explanations are needed, even in short forms. (Though for a project like this, I'd appreciate long posts personally. Saying this as a voter, not the commissioner.)
- The time frame for each franchise is 2 days (from/to 11:00 EST).

Results on Google Sheets

The comparison order we'll be following;

Spoiler:

---

Spoiler:

Odinn21 · Post #2 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:03 pm

Let’s watch the world burn. :lol:

-

I’ll add some full game videos to this message soon.

falcolombardi · Post #3 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:11 pm

temptatively and before checking stats in depth

tier 1: 89-91 jordan vs 09,12,13 lebron
tier 2: 88,92-93 jordan vs 10,14,16 lebron
tier 3: 96-97 jordan vs 17-18 lebron
tier 4: 87,98 jordan vs 11,20 lebron

would be the "matchups" to start with imo

Gregoire · Post #4 » by **Gregoire** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:28 pm

Two of the best primes ever. Here is my list:

1. 91 MJ - best peak ever in my view in a vacuum, just unmatched in RS and especially PO
2. 90 MJ - tie with 91 basically, just didnt won
3. 92 MJ - maybe even better MJ than 91 and 90 for 35 minutes, but less motor and stamina IMO
4. 12 James - best version of Lebron in a vacuum I think, best combination of offense+defense+stamina and motor
5. 09 James - best athletic version of Lebron, just less IQ, shooting and didnt win, so stats are empty (inflated) like 88 MJ.
6. 89 MJ - less IQ version of 90 MJ
7. 93 MJ - comparing to 93 better actual perfomance, but worse in a vacuum as a player: less athletic slightly...
8. 13 James - worse defense and stamina than in 12
9. 16 James - if talking only PO, maybe he would be after 12 version, but RS and some luck in finals give doubts
10. 88 MJ - best ever motor and athleticism, just less IQ than after
11. 17 James - defensive and athletic decline, overall worse than pre-2016, just league became more friendly to his style, so no statistical decline.
12. 96 MJ - athletic and defensive decline

HM: 10 James, 18 James

Odinn21 · Post #5 » by **Odinn21** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 3:30 pm

falcolombardi wrote:temptatively and before checking stats in depth

tier 1: 89-91 jordan vs 09,12,13 lebron
tier 2: 88,92-93 jordan vs 10,14,16 lebron
tier 3: 96-97 jordan vs 17-18 lebron
tier 4: 87,98 jordan vs 11,20 lebron

would be the "matchups" to start with imo

I think James has a pretty decent chance against Jordan because even though Jordan peaked slightly higher with more seasons for the low end.

My tiers for the 2;
1990/1991 Jordan
2009/2012/2013 James
(I think that James did not peak just as high but he clearly peaked higher than any other Jordan season)
1989/1993 Jordan vs. 2014/2016 James
1988/1992 Jordan vs. 2010/2017 James

And that rounds up the 12. This might be the only comparison I will leave out one of 1988 Jordan and 2010/2017 James entirely, let alone Jordan’s 1996.

falcolombardi · Post #6 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:02 pm

Odinn21 wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:temptatively and before checking stats in depth

tier 1: 89-91 jordan vs 09,12,13 lebron
tier 2: 88,92-93 jordan vs 10,14,16 lebron
tier 3: 96-97 jordan vs 17-18 lebron
tier 4: 87,98 jordan vs 11,20 lebron

would be the "matchups" to start with imo

I think James has a pretty decent chance against Jordan because even though Jordan peaked slightly higher with more seasons for the low end.

My tiers for the 2;
1990/1991 Jordan
2009/2012/2013 James
(I think that James did not peak just as high but he clearly peaked higher than any other Jordan season)
1989/1993 Jordan vs. 2014/2016 James
1988/1992 Jordan vs. 2010/2017 James

And that rounds up the 12. This might be the only comparison I will leave out one of 1988 Jordan and 2010/2017 James entirely, let alone Jordan’s 1996.

there is a particular comparision i am always curious about simce every one picks jordan there

what makes 1990 jordan superior to 2009 lebron? other than arguments about "flukyness" is a case is struggle to see the angle for jordam 1990 season superiority (whether it be regular season, playoffs, defense, efficiency, overall stats, even teammates quality )

what do you think about that one?

Djoker · Post #7 » by **Djoker** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:10 pm

I see only 2009 Lebron as being on the same tier as Jordan's 3-year peak from 1989-1991. But considering this season is sandwiched between 2008 and 2010 which won't even make the list or even come close, I have less confidence in this version of Lebron. Jordan's 1988, 1992 and 1993 are also near flawless (a smidge below the 1989-1991 stretch) and I don't see any Lebron season at that level not even 2012. For instance comparing Lebron's playoff stats in 2012 playoffs vs. Jordan's weaker immortal six playoffs 1992 per 75 possessions:

Lebron 2012: 29.0 ppg, 9.3 rpg (2.2 o), 5.4 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.7 bpg on 57.6 %TS (+ 4.9 rTS) with 3.4 topg
Jordan 1992: 33.4 ppg, 6.0 rpg (1.7 o), 5.6 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.7 bpg on 57.1 %TS (+4.0 rTS) with 3.5 topg

Jordan's weakest of his top 6 seasons still comes out comfortably ahead of 2012 Lebron and MJ also had a better regular season.

Generally when comparing their best seasons we see something in the neighbourgood of 5 PPG more, same efficiency, comparable creation and lower turnovers for Jordan. You'd have to value Lebron's defense at least an entire tier or even two of ahead of Jordan's to see their peaks as comparable and I don't see that at all. Lebron will do comparatively better than Bird or Duncan in a comparison against Jordan simply because of more quality seasons bringing up the rear but in terms of peak or near peak quality he can't match MJ. To be frank I don't think anyone can. Kareem gives Jordan the best run for his money in my book.

Top 10 Jordan Seasons:

1991
1990
1989
1988
1992
1993
1996
1997
1987
1998

Top 10 Lebron Seasons:

2009
2012
2016
2013
2017
2018
2020
2010
2014
2015

Top 12 Combined Seasons:

1991 Jordan
1990 Jordan
1989 Jordan
2009 Lebron
1988 Jordan
1992 Jordan
1993 Jordan
2012 Lebron
2016 Lebron
2013 Lebron
1996 Jordan
2017 Lebron

1993Playoffs · Post #8 » by **1993Playoffs** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 4:22 pm

Unpopular opinion: I think 2009 should be #1.

Looking at it objectively 2009 is probably the best season between the 2 players IMO of course

Djoker · Post #9 » by **Djoker** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 5:11 pm

1993Playoffs wrote:Unpopular opinion: I think 2009 should be #1.

Looking at it objectively 2009 is probably the best season between the 2 players IMO of course

That's a very valid opinion. The problem is that considering two years in either direction, 2009 really looks like an outlier.

letskissbro · Post #10 » by **letskissbro** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 6:38 pm

Why does 2010 LeBron get written off so easily? By just about every measure it's on par with his '09 season and I consider even more impressive considering outside of LeBron the Cavs shot 29% from 3 vs 41% in '09. Is 2 bad playoff games against a great defense really enough to knock it from arguably being his peak to just an average prime season?

I'm not going to vote but I consider LeBron to be a better player on average than Jordan. I see them as roughly equal offensively (Jordan was probably a hair better until LeBron's 2nd stint Cleveland years) but there's a solid gap between the two in defensive impact.

falcolombardi · Post #11 » by **falcolombardi** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 7:28 pm

Djoker wrote:
1993Playoffs wrote:Unpopular opinion: I think 2009 should be #1.

Looking at it objectively 2009 is probably the best season between the 2 players IMO of course

That's a very valid opinion. The problem is that considering two years in either direction, 2009 really looks like an outlier.

this is a weird bit of logic to me that a lot of the board uses

what does it matter what happened in other years when evaluating a season? is incresibly arbitrary. same aa evaluating players by their best consecutivas stretch instead of best stretch

is basically double counting "bad" seasons to diminish better ones

the issues of 2008(who was a pre prime lebron anyway) and 2010 (also pretty overstated) are already accounted when evaluating those seasons

Djoker · Post #12 » by **Djoker** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:18 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Djoker wrote:
1993Playoffs wrote:Unpopular opinion: I think 2009 should be #1.

Looking at it objectively 2009 is probably the best season between the 2 players IMO of course

That's a very valid opinion. The problem is that considering two years in either direction, 2009 really looks like an outlier.

this is a weird bit of logic to me that a lot of the board uses

what does it matter what happened in other years when evaluating a season? is incresibly arbitrary. same aa evaluating players by their best consecutivas stretch instead of best stretch

is basically double counting "bad" seasons to diminish better ones

the issues of 2008(who was a pre prime lebron anyway) and 2010 (also pretty overstated) are already accounted when evaluating those seasons

There is no double counting... You naturally have more confidence in a piece of data where other related data shows similar results as opposed to a piece of data where the related data shows something completely different. The second is basically the definition of a statistical outlier.

Per 75 Playoff Numbers:

2007 Lebron: 23.6/7.6/7.5 on -2.5 rTS with 3.1 to (20 games)
2008 Lebron: 27.8/7.7/7.5 on -1.5 rTS with 4.1 to (13 games)
2009 Lebron: 35.6/9.2/7.4 on +7.4 rTS with 2.8 to (14 games) ---> OUTLIER
2010 Lebron: 27.1/8.6/7.1 on +6.4 rTS with 3.5 to (11 games)
2011 Lebron: 22.5/8.0/5.6 on +2.2 rTS with 3.0 to (21 games)

Do I consider at 14-game run where a player puts up 35.6 pts on +7.4 rTS an outlier when in the surrounding 65 games the same player puts up 24.7 pts on around +2 rTS? You bet I do.

Of course it doesn't mean I will just dismiss this season. 2009 Lebron is the best version of Lebron ever to play basketball but when comparing it to other insane peak seasons by not just Jordan but also Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt I will slightly downgrade Lebron for scoring that clearly looks like an outlier. It's very hard to take 35.6 points/75 at face value when Lebron only has one another postseason in his whole career above 30 points and it's 31.9 points/75 in 2018.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #13 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 8:28 pm

Djoker wrote:
Per 75 Playoff Numbers:

2007 Lebron: 23.6/7.6/7.5 on -2.5 rTS with 3.1 to (20 games)
2008 Lebron: 27.8/7.7/7.5 on -1.5 rTS with 4.1 to (13 games)
2009 Lebron: 35.6/9.2/7.4 on +7.4 rTS with 2.8 to (14 games) ---> OUTLIER
2010 Lebron: 27.1/8.6/7.1 on +6.4 rTS with 3.5 to (11 games)
2011 Lebron: 22.5/8.0/5.6 on +2.2 rTS with 3.0 to (21 games)

Do I consider at 14-game run where a player puts up 35.6 pts on +7.4 rTS an outlier when in the surrounding 65 games the same player puts up 24.7 pts on around +3 rTS? You bet I do.

You say all of that yet are completely discounting the 08 and 2010 regular seasons while only looking at 1 series in each season against top defenses(even in 09 Orl was the #1 def that year). You don't see the lack of consistency in how you are evaluating those seasons? It's the equivalent of only looking at the Det series while evaluating 88-90 MJ. Which I think you can look at and take into account but you don't throw out all the other games from that season based just on those series. Imo 88-90 MJ is slightly overrated here tbh. I personally lean more towards 92-93 being better than 88-89 even though his rs numbers don't bear that out. He was at a point then that LeBron was from 15-18 where the effort wasn't quite there in the rs but he was a better all around player in the ps including a better leader/game manager.

70sFan · Post #14 » by **70sFan** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:02 pm

I always struggle to rank James and Jordan peak seasons. I have a feeling that James could reach higher highs than Jordan at his absolute best because of his size and defense, but Jordan seemed to be much more consistent player throughout the season. How to judge that?

Owly · Post #15 » by **Owly** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:12 pm

Djoker wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Djoker wrote:
That's a very valid opinion. The problem is that considering two years in either direction, 2009 really looks like an outlier.

this is a weird bit of logic to me that a lot of the board uses

what does it matter what happened in other years when evaluating a season? is incresibly arbitrary. same aa evaluating players by their best consecutivas stretch instead of best stretch

is basically double counting "bad" seasons to diminish better ones

the issues of 2008(who was a pre prime lebron anyway) and 2010 (also pretty overstated) are already accounted when evaluating those seasons

There is no double counting... You naturally have more confidence in a piece of data where other related data shows similar results as opposed to a piece of data where the related data shows something completely different. The second is basically the definition of a statistical outlier.

Per 75 Playoff Numbers:

2007 Lebron: 23.6/7.6/7.5 on -2.5 rTS with 3.1 to (20 games)
2008 Lebron: 27.8/7.7/7.5 on -1.5 rTS with 4.1 to (13 games)
2009 Lebron: 35.6/9.2/7.4 on +7.4 rTS with 2.8 to (14 games) ---> OUTLIER
2010 Lebron: 27.1/8.6/7.1 on +6.4 rTS with 3.5 to (11 games)
2011 Lebron: 22.5/8.0/5.6 on +2.2 rTS with 3.0 to (21 games)

Do I consider at 14-game run where a player puts up 35.6 pts on +7.4 rTS an outlier when in the surrounding 65 games the same player puts up 24.7 pts on around +3 rTS? You bet I do.

Is LeBron's 37.4 PER, .399 WS/48, 17.5 BPM playoffs an outlier. Sure. And not just for LeBron. For anyone playing that many playoff minutes. I don't think that is in question. I'm fairly sure it's unmatched as a box composite profile (unless something recent happened).

I do have an issue calling 2007 and 2011 part of "the surrounding 65 games". Those occurred in the 2009 and 2010 RS surely.

If you're going to measure exclusively off playoffs, as done here, you're going to get some wild fluctuations anyway and the worthwhileness of measuring single seasons is raised if the quantifiable data fluctuates so, and forces one to rely on data outside the period purportedly measured ... I don't know, I'm not a numbers expert but it would seem to me if a season is worth evaluating ... whilst I see some room whilst I see wriggle room in evaluating the player (based on the season) versus the season, I would suggest if adjacent seasons are much more than a nudge (for a repeatability angle) then there's not much point to the exercise and if one is pulling on the seasons two years out (for 5 seasons total to evaluate one ... unless they too need such a spread) then especially so. I can't see a single year being a distinct, recognizable thing worth evaluating and also needing 2 years before and 2 years after to evaluate them.

VanWest82 · Post #16 » by **VanWest82** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:28 pm

Djoker wrote:Per 75 Playoff Numbers:

2007 Lebron: 23.6/7.6/7.5 on -2.5 rTS with 3.1 to (20 games)
2008 Lebron: 27.8/7.7/7.5 on -1.5 rTS with 4.1 to (13 games)
2009 Lebron: 35.6/9.2/7.4 on +7.4 rTS with 2.8 to (14 games) ---> OUTLIER
2010 Lebron: 27.1/8.6/7.1 on +6.4 rTS with 3.5 to (11 games)
2011 Lebron: 22.5/8.0/5.6 on +2.2 rTS with 3.0 to (21 games)

Do I consider at 14-game run where a player puts up 35.6 pts on +7.4 rTS an outlier when in the surrounding 65 games the same player puts up 24.7 pts on around +2 rTS? You bet I do.

Of course it doesn't mean I will just dismiss this season. 2009 Lebron is the best version of Lebron ever to play basketball but when comparing it to other insane peak seasons by not just Jordan but also Kareem, Shaq, and Wilt I will slightly downgrade Lebron for scoring that clearly looks like an outlier. It's very hard to take 35.6 points/75 at face value when Lebron only has one another postseason in his whole career above 30 points and it's 31.9 points/75 in 2018.

Right, and further to the point...

2007 Lebron RS/PO: .361 (10-16 ft); .346 (16-3PT) / .265 (10-16 ft); .337 (16-3PT)
2008 Lebron RS/PO: .303 (10-16 ft); .372 (16-3PT) / .143 (10-16 ft); .289 (16-3PT)
2009 Lebron RS/PO: .286 (10-16 ft); .388 (16-3PT) / .444 (10-16 ft); .486 (16-3PT)
2010 Lebron RS/PO: .344 (10-16 ft); .398 (16-3PT) / .375 (10-16 ft); .389 (16-3PT)

Also, Stan is on record that the plan was single cover LBJ to make him a scorer. It was the same thing Spurs did to him in 07 only he had an out-of-body experience. The fact he got so far into his head vs. Celtics in 2010 and vs. Mavs in 2011 wrt to confidence in his jumper is really the nail in the coffin in this debate. It was a massive outlier. I don't understand the revisionist history trying to proclaim he was a good shooter in 09. We knew at the time that he wasn't - that he just got hot. I'll always believe the bubble would've burst had he advanced to play Lakers in Finals. He wasn't consistent enough.

TheGOATRises007 · Post #17 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:30 pm

I've not posted much for the project, but I'll post for this 1.

I've gone back and forth on LeBron's peak lately and might actually consider 2009 his peak. I've never considered 2009 his peak before, but it is hard to ignore the impact metrics and metrics on that season overall.

There's just something about watching him in 2016 and 2017 and he just seemed so firmly attuned with the game and everything thrown at him. It's also hard to rank his peak, because I don't think his offensive/defensive peak happened in the same season. Unless you really consider 2009 to outweigh his offensive peak argument from 2017/2018 and it outweighing 2012/2013 for his defensive peak. Even 2012 has an incredible argument, because of his superb 2-way play throughout the season and a very strong playoff showing.

That said, 2009 has the singular best argument for both offensive/defensive peak coinciding at once IMO, so maybe it is Lebron's peak after all.

Jordan's peak is more clear-cut to me with 91 being the clear season and 90 being just a bit behind it. I'm also firmly set that Jordan's prime from 88-93 is a clear tier ahead of 96-98. His 96 season was amazing, but there was a clear and noticeable decline to me compared to 91 for example.

Tentatively ranking them, but I'm not 100% firm on the order:

1. 91 Jordan - His best season offensively and defensively IMO. Superb RS and incredibly efficient playoff run.
2. 90 Jordan - Just a teeny bit below 91. I don't think there's much difference between the 2 seasons at all.
3. 09 LeBron - The greatest floor raiser in NBA history. I don't think his offensive game is as polished as 2017, but incredible impact.
4. 16 LeBron - Incredible defense in the finals and in the playoffs/RS. Slight edge over 2017 for me.
5. 17 LeBron - IMO his offensive peak, but it's hard to ignore how much his defense slipped compared to the previous year.
6. 93 Jordan - Hugely underrated MJ season. His turnover economy was outrageous in the playoffs(7%) despite a usage of 38%.
7. 89 Jordan - More physically imposing than 93, but not as polished offensively.
8. 12 LeBron - Monstrous 2-way impact throughout the season. Could be higher on the list honestly.
9. 92 Jordan - The best Bulls team IMO. A noticeable decline from 91, but still a great RS and playoffs. Monster finals showing.
10. 13 LeBron - I would have had this higher, but it's really hard to ignore those game 1-5 struggles in the finals. Still incredible RS.
11. 10 LeBron - I also might have this higher after seeing seeing more people post on the 'overblown struggles' in the playoffs. In fact, he has less struggles than 2013, but gets punished more.
12. 96 Jordan - Incredible all-time RS, but I felt like there was a clear and noticeable physical decline. I also can't ignore the poor finish to the Sonics series.

The analysis is pretty short. Don't have too much time to commit.

sansterre · Post #18 » by **sansterre** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:56 pm

VanWest82 wrote:2009 Lebron RS/PO: .286 (10-16 ft); .388 (16-3PT) / .444 (10-16 ft); .486 (16-3PT)

I don't understand the revisionist history trying to proclaim he was a good shooter in 09. We knew at the time that he wasn't - that he just got hot. I'll always believe the bubble would've burst had he advanced to play Lakers in Finals. He wasn't consistent enough.

If you want to say "I'm not sure how possible it would have been to duplicate, but LeBron's 2009 playoffs is arguably the best ever", that's fair.

If you want to say "While I won't give him credit in 2009 because of its small sample size, from '09 to '10 in the playoffs, over 1000 minutes and 25 games, he averaged a +10.9 OBPM (a historically insane mark)," that would be fair. It doesn't give him credit for 2009, but it blends 2009 with another season for a more balanced conclusion.

What you can't say is "LeBron was historically unstoppable in 2009 in a way that was a clear outlier, so we're simply going to pretend that it never happened". That's complete garbage.

It smells too much like "When LeBron sucks, it's because he sucks. And when he's historically dominant, it shouldn't be taken seriously."

Cavsfansince84 · Post #19 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 9:59 pm

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:I've not posted much for the project, but I'll post for this 1.

I've gone back and forth on LeBron's peak lately and might actually consider 2009 his peak. I've never considered 2009 his peak before, but it is hard to ignore the impact metrics and metrics on that season overall.

There's just something about watching him in 2016 and 2017 and he just seemed so firmly attuned with the game and everything thrown at him. It's also hard to rank his peak, because I don't think his offensive/defensive peak happened in the same season. Unless you really consider 2009 to outweigh his offensive peak argument from 2017/2018 and it outweighing 2012/2013 for his defensive peak. Even 2012 has an incredible argument, because of his superb 2-way play throughout the season and a very strong playoff showing.

That said, 2009 has the singular best argument for both offensive/defensive peak coinciding at once IMO, so maybe it is Lebron's peak after all.

Jordan's peak is more clear-cut to me with 91 being the clear season and 90 being just a bit behind it. I'm also firmly set that Jordan's prime from 88-93 is a clear tier ahead of 96-98. His 96 season was amazing, but there was a clear and noticeable decline to me compared to 91 for example.

Tentatively ranking them, but I'm not 100% firm on the order:

1. 91 Jordan - His best season offensively and defensively IMO. Superb RS and incredibly efficient playoff run.
2. 90 Jordan - Just a teeny bit below 91. I don't think there's much difference between the 2 seasons at all.
3. 09 LeBron - The greatest floor raiser in NBA history. I don't think his offensive game is as polished as 2017, but incredible impact.
4. 16 LeBron - Incredible defense in the finals and in the playoffs/RS. Slight edge over 2017 for me.
5. 17 LeBron - IMO his offensive peak, but it's hard to ignore how much his defense slipped compared to the previous year.
6. 93 Jordan - Hugely underrated MJ season. His turnover economy was outrageous in the playoffs(7%) despite a usage of 38%.
7. 89 Jordan - More physically imposing than 93, but not as polished offensively.
8. 12 LeBron - Monstrous 2-way impact throughout the season. Could be higher on the list honestly.
9. 92 Jordan - The best Bulls team IMO. A noticeable decline from 91, but still a great RS and playoffs. Monster finals showing.
10. 13 LeBron - I would have had this higher, but it's really hard to ignore those game 1-5 struggles in the finals. Still incredible RS.
11. 10 LeBron - I also might have this higher after seeing seeing more people post on the 'overblown struggles' in the playoffs. In fact, he has less struggles than 2013, but gets punished more.
12. 96 Jordan - Incredible all-time RS, but I felt like there was a clear and noticeable physical decline. I also can't ignore the poor finish to the Sonics series.

The analysis is pretty short. Don't have too much time to commit.

Good list and I agree on 93 MJ being his third best season(maybe even second) though I put pretty strong emphasis on the playoffs. I think MJ just grew as a person and as a player from 91-93 in ways that don't show up in the box score but you can see it when you watch him. I honestly do think though that 09 LeBron was right there with 90 MJ if not better. Maybe he was better than 91 MJ too. It's just that we as fans can't see past his team losing in the ecf though I feel like at the same time people just conflate 90 MJ into 91 despite the ecf loss. MJ's 91 playoff run doesn't really stand out compared to others tbh. He wasn't really pushed in those playoffs and didn't have any high scoring series either. It's just sort of an apex in terms of his athleticism and offense/defense combo.

VanWest82 · Post #20 » by **VanWest82** » Mon Oct 18, 2021 10:27 pm

sansterre wrote:
VanWest82 wrote:2009 Lebron RS/PO: .286 (10-16 ft); .388 (16-3PT) / .444 (10-16 ft); .486 (16-3PT)

I don't understand the revisionist history trying to proclaim he was a good shooter in 09. We knew at the time that he wasn't - that he just got hot. I'll always believe the bubble would've burst had he advanced to play Lakers in Finals. He wasn't consistent enough.

If you want to say "I'm not sure how possible it would have been to duplicate, but LeBron's 2009 playoffs is arguably the best ever", that's fair.

If you want to say "While I won't give him credit in 2009 because of its small sample size, from '09 to '10 in the playoffs, over 1000 minutes and 25 games, he averaged a +10.9 OBPM (a historically insane mark)," that would be fair. It doesn't give him credit for 2009, but it blends 2009 with another season for a more balanced conclusion.

What you can't say is "LeBron was historically unstoppable in 2009 in a way that was a clear outlier, so we're simply going to pretend that it never happened". That's complete garbage.

It smells too much like "When LeBron sucks, it's because he sucks. And when he's historically dominant, it shouldn't be taken seriously."

I didn't say we should pretend it never happened. I provided further context in addition to what Djoker said to help illustrate why Lebron's 09 postseason run was such an outlier, and why it shouldn't be taken as a true representation of his shooting ability during that time. It's not garbage - it's an opinion that's completely supported by the evidence.