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I feel this is much closer than a lot of people seem to be believe

Who would you pick?

2007 nash

The only argument for WB imo is if you have a team mostly devoid of talent and want someone to carry your team to 40-45 wins.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:The only argument for WB imo is if you have a team mostly devoid of talent and want someone to carry your team to 40-45 wins.

Steve Nash already did those things even when he was past his prime

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:The only argument for WB imo is if you have a team mostly devoid of talent and want someone to carry your team to 40-45 wins.

Steve Nash already did those things even when he was past his prime

Nash can do it too but all I'm saying is that that's the only argument to be made for him. WB did do an excellent floor raise job in 2017.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:The only argument for WB imo is if you have a team mostly devoid of talent and want someone to carry your team to 40-45 wins.

I’d also say when engaged Russ is certainly a better defender.

Russ is also able to output more volume though I guess that kinda ties into your point.

Nash for sure. He led nine consecutive teams, three in Dallas and six in Phoenix, to a top 2 ORtg. He is one of the greatest offensive engines ever. Westbrook puts up gaudy stats but arguably makes as many negative value plays as positive ones.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:The only argument for WB imo is if you have a team mostly devoid of talent and want someone to carry your team to 40-45 wins.

Steve Nash already did those things even when he was past his prime

Yeah those 2011 and 2012 Suns teams are pretty darn devoid of talent and he had them at .500.

I think people just have this idea that a floor raiser looks like a volume scorer. But doesn't have to be the case at all. AK47 was a floor raiser for the Jazz. Deke was in Denver and Atlanta. Tim Duncan the ultimate example in San Antonio.

What a volume scorer who really shouldn't be a primary offensive option does more than raise your floor is cap your ceiling. Think Melo, DeRozan, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin.

I really enjoy Westbrook. I think he takes too much criticism at times. But this is an easy decision to go with Nasty.

Texas Chuck wrote:
Yeah those 2011 and 2012 Suns teams are pretty darn devoid of talent and he had them at .500.

I think people just have this idea that a floor raiser looks like a volume scorer. But doesn't have to be the case at all. AK47 was a floor raiser for the Jazz. Deke was in Denver and Atlanta. Tim Duncan the ultimate example in San Antonio.

What a volume scorer who really shouldn't be a primary offensive option does more than raise your floor is cap your ceiling. Think Melo, DeRozan, Monta Ellis, Kevin Martin.

I really enjoy Westbrook. I think he takes too much criticism at times. But this is an easy decision to go with Nasty.

Personally I don't really equate scoring with floor raising. I think WB does bring a lot more than scoring to teams. He can pretty much be a one man offense in terms of how he plays but with the caveat that he creates a built in ceiling by doing so even when playing with an atg offensive weapon like KD. I agree that ceiling raisers can take many forms and guys who just score with volume(often on somewhat bad efficiency) are among the worst at it.

Cavsfansince84 wrote: Personally I don't really equate scoring with floor raising. I think WB does bring a lot more than scoring to teams.

Glad to hear it.

And I agree Westbrook absolutely brings more. But when I see people itt talking about floor raisers they are almost always referring to a guy who can score a ton of points. Just wanted to point out other player types can help set a floor. A 3&D guy or stretch big? Probably not. But an elite defensive anchor or elite offensive orchestrator like Nash? Definitely can as well.

This was less me trying to limit Westbrook to just volume scorer and more me saying floor raiser doesn't have to equate to volume scoring, a theme I see a lot.

Voted nash but that shouldn't be an indictment on Westbrook's MVP season. He deserved it.

Interestingly Westbrook went higher in the peaks project which was just two years ago, but Nash is blowing out the poll here.

No-more-rings wrote:Interestingly Westbrook went higher in the peaks project which was just two years ago, but Nash is blowing out the poll here.

may be a bit of negative recency bias against westbrook

falcolombardi wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Interestingly Westbrook went higher in the peaks project which was just two years ago, but Nash is blowing out the poll here.

may be a bit of negative recency bias against westbrook

Yeah, i mean I'd probably take Nash too but it's interesting, there's definitely things Westbrook can do that Nash can't. Westbrook was an historically great athlete and that can't be undervalued. Also, Westbrook wasn't a consistent defender that year but when locked in could do things Nash couldn't due to size and athleticism. Nash on the other hand is more cerebral, and obviously a much better shooter.

As a very Big Russ fan I have to admit Steve Nash is a noticeably better player (I will compare multi year peaks but the results don't change for single year peaks)

A quick statistical comp of the 2

15-17 Russ
41.2 IA PTS/100
14.7 IA AST/100
12.9 IA TRB/100
+.4 rTS%
16.8 Box OC
8.3 Pass Rate
66.2 O Load
9.1 BPM
6.6 BP BPM
6.18 RAPTOR
3.8 APM
4.41 PI RAPM

05-07 Nash
26.3 IA PTS/100
16.6 IA AST/100
5.5 IA TRB/100
+9.5 rTS%
17.2 Box OC
9.5 Pass Rate
48.5 O Load
5.2 BPM
5.1 BP BPM
5.91 RAPTOR
4.1 APM
6.05 PI RAPM

From a statistical standpoint The 2 Look Pretty close, With Box Metrics heavily preferring Russ while PM Data Prefers Nash. Statistically Nash is also a much better playmaker (more assists and Box OC despite significantly smaller load) and i would personally prefer russ as a scorer (Goat Tier Volume on ok efficiency > GOAT Tier efficiency on Ok volume imo).

Will do a follow up to this later with film analysis

falcolombardi wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Interestingly Westbrook went higher in the peaks project which was just two years ago, but Nash is blowing out the poll here.

may be a bit of negative recency bias against westbrook

Or rather, the last few years hammering in the importance of criticisms some of us were pointing out back then.

No-more-rings wrote: Westbrook was an historically great athlete and that can't be undervalued.

I would say that people routinely overvalue the importance of what we tend to call "athleticism" when evaluating sports more complicated than running.

Doctor MJ wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Interestingly Westbrook went higher in the peaks project which was just two years ago, but Nash is blowing out the poll here.

may be a bit of negative recency bias against westbrook

Or rather, the last few years hammering in the importance of criticisms some of us were pointing out back then.

those criticisms were already well known at the time, but westbrook strenghts were greater too so the trade off was much more positive

Doctor MJ wrote:

No-more-rings wrote: Westbrook was an historically great athlete and that can't be undervalued.

I would say that people routinely overvalue the importance of what we tend to call "athleticism" when evaluating sports more complicated than running.

In what sense exactly? Again Westbrook wasn’t just some random guy who was atheltic he was an historically athletic point guard and guard for that matter. He had real impact. He wasn’t Marbury or something.

The season people should be focusing on is Westbrook's 2016 season, the one before he won MVP. That was comparable to Nash's best.

These poll results don't mean anything. Westbrook badly tarnished his reputation after 2017 with his own play and Nash is beloved on this site and never loses any polls.