feyki wrote:Baylor turned second worst offensive team in the nba to over average with his arrive. 60 and 61 seasons seems not good, but he led his teams offence over the average against the Hawks in the 1960 Playoffs and then led incredible +9 offence against the Hawks the very next playoffs in the 1961, with rookie West. He also led the best offence when West missed the half of the seasons in the 1968.
1. The shift in Lakers offense with Baylor arrival is +1.4 - from -0.8 to +0.6. It's not insignificant, but it's not some kind of massive turnaround.
2. You focus on 1960 and 1961 playoffs sample, which includes total of 2 series against one opponent (and 2 game vs bad Detroit team), instead of RS numbers? Also, Lakers didn't have above average offense in 1960 playoffs:
1959 Lakers: +0.6 rORtg in RS, +1.9 rORtg in playoffs
1960 Lakers: -3.4 rORtg in RS, -0.7 rORtg in playoffs
1961 Lakers: -1.7 rORtg in RS, +6.9 rORtg in playoffs
Sure, Lakers noticeably improved on offensive end with Baylor arrival and his postseason resiliency certainly was a big factor for postseason improvement, but we're comparing him here to one of the best offensive players ever. West was on different tier offensively than Baylor.
Pettit led one of the best offences in his prime, why do you keep saying volume scoring stuff?
Indeed, Hawks were the best offensive team in the league in 1959 and 1960. Again, I don't call Pettit a weak offensive player or anything like that. I'll share some data for perspective:
1958 Hawks: +0.9 rORtg in RS, +5.9 rORtg in playoffs
1959 Hawks: +3.1 rORtg in RS, +4.8 rORtg in playoffs
1960 Hawks: +2.9 rORtg in RS, +5.3 rORtg in playoffs
1961 Hawks: -0.7 rORtg in RS, +0.8 rORtg in playoffs
It does seem that Pettit has a stronger case based on team success, but we have to remember that Hawks had talented rosters during that time. Based on what I've seen, I'd have to get a very strong evidences of Pettit's offensive impact to call him a better offensive player than West. Despite amazing postseason offenses, Pettit wasn't very resiliant player in the playoffs. I think that a lot of Hawks success was related as much to Pettit as to Cliff Hagan.
Gobert might have that gap only, but think about his game in the early 00's. Just look at tracking data, team stats and some impact metrics. Even Defensive Win shares of DPOY's lower than an average year of Bird's.
DWS isn't a strong argument, because it doesn't really capture defensive impact. Again, I'm waiting for the data that would support your claim that the best defensive players in the league had less than 30% of impact of the best offensive players. RAPM studies certainly disagrees with that.
Yes, because he was a type of guy to pad his numbers and of course proving point is team stats. Till the 1967, his offensive impact not seems added much on his teams offence. His assists numbers was still high. And when he left Sixers offence did not have any big drop.
I see a very strong inconsistency here in your argumentation. You praised Baylor for improving Lakers offense from bad to average one (+1.4 shift), but you don't give any credit for Wilt, who was in similar situation early on and made a similar impact on Warriors (+0.9 shift, from -3.5 to -2.4). On top of that, Warriors teams don't look that much worse than Baylor-led Lakers by your criteria:
1960 Warriors: -2.4 rORtg in RS, +0.9 rORtg in playoffs
1961 Warriors: -0.9 rORtg in RS, -7.6 rORtg in playoffs
1962 Warriors: +0.9 rORtg in RS, +0.8 rORtg in playoffs
1964 Warriors: -1.6 rORtg in RS, +0.8 rORtg in playoffs
1965 Sixers: +0.5 rORtg in RS, +7.5 rORtg in playoffs
1966 Sixers: +0.4 rORtg in RS, -1.6 rORtg in playoffs
1967 Sixers: +5.4 rORtg in RS, +2.5 rORtg in playoffs
1968 Sixers: +1.3 rORtg in RS, -0.3 rORtg in playoffs
You also failed to mention that Warriors came from below average to WOAT level offense without Wilt in 1965 and even the addition of rookie Rick Barry didn't help them much.
Where he outplayed KD? KD played with higher defensive impact than him in the series.
We had this discussion before, nobody outside of you believes that Durant was better defensively than Giannis in that series (or at any other point of the season).