Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo?

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Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#1 » by colts18 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:57 am

What is the most unstoppable Pick N Roll duo in history you could create?

Steph Curry
Giannis

There is no way to defend a Curry/Greek Freak PnR. Curry demands so much attention that you have to switch vs him which would create a mismatch when Giannis rolls to the basket with a switched defender.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#2 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:35 pm

Chris Paul and Dirk?
Nash and Dirk?
KD and Dirk?

Because nobody ever switched off Dirk, so the guard walks into open jumpers and if a team rotates then you make them pay. And if teams then do switch because one of these guys will eat you, then you have 2 mismatches to exploit with the best players in history to exploit them.

Much rather have Dirk than a rim roller.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#3 » by Colbinii » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:21 pm

It's Curry/Dirk for me.

Curry is the only player of the past 6 years to consistently produce over 1.10 PPP as a pick-and-roll ball handler on respectable volume. As Chuck mentioned, Dirk is impossible to play drop coverage against which forces the team to switch every time, which puts a big on Curry and a small on Dirk.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#4 » by jamaalstar21 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 2:26 pm

If you mean pick & roll in the broader sense of the play type, it's impossible not to choose Dirk. Dirk could turn any guard with an effective pull up into an unstoppable offensive weapon (JJ Barea, Jason Terry, Monta Ellis, Jose Calderon etc.)

I don't have play tracking numbers to back this up, but in my mind the most widely regarded pick & roll duos ever are:
Stockton & Malone
Nash & Amar'e
Nash & Dirk (though I don't remember what percentage of the early 2000s Mavs players were p&r)

If you're trying to create specifically the most damaging roll version of the play (not pick & pop), I think I'd choose: Nash and Anthony Davis.
Nash is the best pick & roll guard imo. He's a much better passer than Curry, a better shooter and more aggressive playmaker than Paul, and has a midrange pull-up as good as anyone. I don't think there's a real contest here but it might be my player bias here.

So pair Nash with your choice of roller:
1. Anthony Davis: super soft hands, incredible finisher, great footwork, nice ability to pullup when the defense sags on him
2. Amar'e: Already saw how dominant this was. Amar'e was powerfully strong finisher with an automatic pull up counter.
3. KG: We only really saw him play this role for one season with Sam Cassell, but he's a big finisher, great midrange scorer, best illegal screener ever, and adds an extra dimension of passing.
4. Giannis: another guy we've seen in limited sample (Jrue and him are a good pairing though), but Giannis has finally added some mid-to-short-range counters to his ridiculous rim attacks and perimeter kickouts.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#5 » by Heej » Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:12 pm

It's so obviously Steph and Jokic to me it's not even funny. Think about all the ways you can defend a pnr from most to least aggressive:

For the big man:

Trap - Just no lol Jokic rolls wide open down the lane
Hedge - Leaves you open to a Jokic pop or pump fake and drive
Show and recover - Jokic can roll middy or 3
Up to touch - Jokic can float to 3
Soft or catch hedge - Steph is liable to pull up for 3 or get Jokic open for one
Drop coverage- LOL
Switch - LOL

Ball defender options:

Go under: LOL
Fight over: Steph gets a clear path to the rim causing a defensive breakdown because Jokic sets hefty screens and the big will commit leaving Jokic open for 3
Weak: who cares Steph does great going left
Switch: LOL

Curry is obviously the best pnr ballhandler of all time (primarily due to his insane gravity but also because he's good to elite at every other aspect too, zero weaknesses) so this whole debate is really who can be his best partner. I contend that there's really no other big that can be a threat from all standpoints the way Jokic can. Murray basically played like 2015 Steph in the bubble with Jokic and easily gave the Lakers their biggest fright in the entire playoffs (don't mention Miami, the Lakers hardly took them seriously enough for half the series).

Even someone like Shaq the fact that he isn't a stretch big means that there's certain coverages like up to touch or soft hedges leave enough wiggle room for the big to try and Stave off Curry's shot in time for the guard to fight back into the play. Someone like Dirk can score from all levels just like Jokic can but I personally don't think he's as much of a switch killer as Jokic is at the moment. Jokic will really baby anyone under 6'8 lol. Dirk is probably my second choice but he didn't have the playmaking that Jokic does to dime people up while on the move or when doubled on switches. At least not with the same processing speed, which matters more than anything due to basketball being a game of inches.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#6 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:56 pm

Curry & Jokic came to mind.

I do consider Nash to be the best pick & roll brain in history, but I think that with Jokic the priority would be Curry's GOAT+ shooting.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#7 » by Peregrine01 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:01 pm

Curry and Jokic. I'm firmly convinced that these two are the best hypothetical offensive tandem possible.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#8 » by 70sFan » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:29 pm

All these choices are amazing. I'd add another one - Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. I've seen Magic playing quite a lot of P&Rs in 1990 and he executed it to perfection. Give him someone like Bird and it becomes impossible to deal with.

Is this the best duo possible? Probably not, but it's up there.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#9 » by nate33 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:20 pm

Nash and Stoudamire.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#10 » by penbeast0 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:29 pm

I'll throw 2 names out that aren't being mentioned: Stockton and Wilt.

Stockton, not Nash, is probably the greatest actual pick and roll guard in NBA history in terms of volume, effectiveness, etc. (and he sets a dirty pick himself). Wilt rolling downhill and finishing gives you arguably the biggest, most athletic target in history and it would take him out of his post up mindset to be a more aggressive attacker and dunker which can only be a good thing. Wilt being aggressive going to the basket would be Shaq caliber as a finisher only he's an even easier target with more skills.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#11 » by henshao » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:32 am

70sFan wrote:All these choices are amazing. I'd add another one - Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. I've seen Magic playing quite a lot of P&Rs in 1990 and he executed it to perfection. Give him someone like Bird and it becomes impossible to deal with.

Is this the best duo possible? Probably not, but it's up there.


I forget what it was, a college all-star game or something, where Larry and Magic briefly played together. I'll never forget watching Magic dish it behind the back on a drive to larry, who then no-looked it back to Magic. God help whoever had to defend such a duo
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#12 » by migya » Fri Nov 19, 2021 1:28 pm

Stockton and Malone.

Proven for almost twenty years.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#13 » by penbeast0 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 2:44 pm

henshao wrote:
70sFan wrote:All these choices are amazing. I'd add another one - Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. I've seen Magic playing quite a lot of P&Rs in 1990 and he executed it to perfection. Give him someone like Bird and it becomes impossible to deal with.

Is this the best duo possible? Probably not, but it's up there.


I forget what it was, a college all-star game or something, where Larry and Magic briefly played together. I'll never forget watching Magic dish it behind the back on a drive to larry, who then no-looked it back to Magic. God help whoever had to defend such a duo


Watch Larry Bird and Bill Walton in the 86 playoffs. The best interior passing I've ever seen.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#14 » by ShotCreator » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:41 pm

Heej wrote:It's so obviously Steph and Jokic to me it's not even funny. Think about all the ways you can defend a pnr from most to least aggressive:

For the big man:

Trap - Just no lol Jokic rolls wide open down the lane
Hedge - Leaves you open to a Jokic pop or pump fake and drive
Show and recover - Jokic can roll middy or 3
Up to touch - Jokic can float to 3
Soft or catch hedge - Steph is liable to pull up for 3 or get Jokic open for one
Drop coverage- LOL
Switch - LOL

Ball defender options:

Go under: LOL
Fight over: Steph gets a clear path to the rim causing a defensive breakdown because Jokic sets hefty screens and the big will commit leaving Jokic open for 3
Weak: who cares Steph does great going left
Switch: LOL

Curry is obviously the best pnr ballhandler of all time (primarily due to his insane gravity but also because he's good to elite at every other aspect too, zero weaknesses) so this whole debate is really who can be his best partner. I contend that there's really no other big that can be a threat from all standpoints the way Jokic can. Murray basically played like 2015 Steph in the bubble with Jokic and easily gave the Lakers their biggest fright in the entire playoffs (don't mention Miami, the Lakers hardly took them seriously enough for half the series).

Even someone like Shaq the fact that he isn't a stretch big means that there's certain coverages like up to touch or soft hedges leave enough wiggle room for the big to try and Stave off Curry's shot in time for the guard to fight back into the play. Someone like Dirk can score from all levels just like Jokic can but I personally don't think he's as much of a switch killer as Jokic is at the moment. Jokic will really baby anyone under 6'8 lol. Dirk is probably my second choice but he didn't have the playmaking that Jokic does to dime people up while on the move or when doubled on switches. At least not with the same processing speed, which matters more than anything due to basketball being a game of inches.

Beat me to it. Jokic has all the functional scoring gravity of Dirk, and just a **** ton more breadth of skill as a passer.


Jokic could legitimately be offensive GOAT. Absolutely insane player.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#15 » by Statlanta » Fri Nov 19, 2021 3:52 pm

Nash and Malone. Based on sheer longevity and experience alone.

Curry has little PnR volume compared to other HOF PGs. It's more than likely he would be throwing the ball out of bounds.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#16 » by ShotCreator » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:08 pm

Statlanta wrote:Nash and Malone. Based on sheer longevity and experience alone.

Curry has little PnR volume compared to other HOF PGs. It's more than likely he would be throwing the ball out of bounds.

Jokic could be ball handler and it would still be deadlier than anything Nash/Malone were capable of. And I mean literally.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#17 » by Heej » Fri Nov 19, 2021 6:26 pm

ShotCreator wrote:
Heej wrote:It's so obviously Steph and Jokic to me it's not even funny. Think about all the ways you can defend a pnr from most to least aggressive:

For the big man:

Trap - Just no lol Jokic rolls wide open down the lane
Hedge - Leaves you open to a Jokic pop or pump fake and drive
Show and recover - Jokic can roll middy or 3
Up to touch - Jokic can float to 3
Soft or catch hedge - Steph is liable to pull up for 3 or get Jokic open for one
Drop coverage- LOL
Switch - LOL

Ball defender options:

Go under: LOL
Fight over: Steph gets a clear path to the rim causing a defensive breakdown because Jokic sets hefty screens and the big will commit leaving Jokic open for 3
Weak: who cares Steph does great going left
Switch: LOL

Curry is obviously the best pnr ballhandler of all time (primarily due to his insane gravity but also because he's good to elite at every other aspect too, zero weaknesses) so this whole debate is really who can be his best partner. I contend that there's really no other big that can be a threat from all standpoints the way Jokic can. Murray basically played like 2015 Steph in the bubble with Jokic and easily gave the Lakers their biggest fright in the entire playoffs (don't mention Miami, the Lakers hardly took them seriously enough for half the series).

Even someone like Shaq the fact that he isn't a stretch big means that there's certain coverages like up to touch or soft hedges leave enough wiggle room for the big to try and Stave off Curry's shot in time for the guard to fight back into the play. Someone like Dirk can score from all levels just like Jokic can but I personally don't think he's as much of a switch killer as Jokic is at the moment. Jokic will really baby anyone under 6'8 lol. Dirk is probably my second choice but he didn't have the playmaking that Jokic does to dime people up while on the move or when doubled on switches. At least not with the same processing speed, which matters more than anything due to basketball being a game of inches.

Beat me to it. Jokic has all the functional scoring gravity of Dirk, and just a **** ton more breadth of skill as a passer.


Jokic could legitimately be offensive GOAT. Absolutely insane player.

It's wild to think about because I haven't really heard that take before but I'm not mad at it. Shoot, I remember watching the Lakers Nuggets series in the bubble and being amazed at how much better Jokic was at punishing doubles than LeBron was. And we're talking one of the best players in NBA history at passing out of double teams and Jokic looked like he was on another level from THAT guy. I s*** you not, it felt like LeBron created shots out of double teams before defenses could rotate in time like 50% of the time which is a great rate, but with Jokic it felt like 80% of the time he whipped it to a guy before the defense could recover. Absolute madness
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#18 » by SideshowBob » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:17 pm

Heej wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:
Heej wrote:It's so obviously Steph and Jokic to me it's not even funny. Think about all the ways you can defend a pnr from most to least aggressive:

For the big man:

Trap - Just no lol Jokic rolls wide open down the lane
Hedge - Leaves you open to a Jokic pop or pump fake and drive
Show and recover - Jokic can roll middy or 3
Up to touch - Jokic can float to 3
Soft or catch hedge - Steph is liable to pull up for 3 or get Jokic open for one
Drop coverage- LOL
Switch - LOL

Ball defender options:

Go under: LOL
Fight over: Steph gets a clear path to the rim causing a defensive breakdown because Jokic sets hefty screens and the big will commit leaving Jokic open for 3
Weak: who cares Steph does great going left
Switch: LOL

Curry is obviously the best pnr ballhandler of all time (primarily due to his insane gravity but also because he's good to elite at every other aspect too, zero weaknesses) so this whole debate is really who can be his best partner. I contend that there's really no other big that can be a threat from all standpoints the way Jokic can. Murray basically played like 2015 Steph in the bubble with Jokic and easily gave the Lakers their biggest fright in the entire playoffs (don't mention Miami, the Lakers hardly took them seriously enough for half the series).

Even someone like Shaq the fact that he isn't a stretch big means that there's certain coverages like up to touch or soft hedges leave enough wiggle room for the big to try and Stave off Curry's shot in time for the guard to fight back into the play. Someone like Dirk can score from all levels just like Jokic can but I personally don't think he's as much of a switch killer as Jokic is at the moment. Jokic will really baby anyone under 6'8 lol. Dirk is probably my second choice but he didn't have the playmaking that Jokic does to dime people up while on the move or when doubled on switches. At least not with the same processing speed, which matters more than anything due to basketball being a game of inches.

Beat me to it. Jokic has all the functional scoring gravity of Dirk, and just a **** ton more breadth of skill as a passer.


Jokic could legitimately be offensive GOAT. Absolutely insane player.

It's wild to think about because I haven't really heard that take before but I'm not mad at it. Shoot, I remember watching the Lakers Nuggets series in the bubble and being amazed at how much better Jokic was at punishing doubles than LeBron was. And we're talking one of the best players in NBA history at passing out of double teams and Jokic looked like he was on another level from THAT guy. I s*** you not, it felt like LeBron created shots out of double teams before defenses could rotate in time like 50% of the time which is a great rate, but with Jokic it felt like 80% of the time he whipped it to a guy before the defense could recover. Absolute madness


At age 24 no less. 09 Lebron wasn't a court-vision Brainiac like he became 17/18-onward, but Jokic was ahead of even that version 2 seasons ago.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#19 » by Colbinii » Fri Nov 19, 2021 7:42 pm

SideshowBob wrote:
Heej wrote:
ShotCreator wrote:Beat me to it. Jokic has all the functional scoring gravity of Dirk, and just a **** ton more breadth of skill as a passer.


Jokic could legitimately be offensive GOAT. Absolutely insane player.

It's wild to think about because I haven't really heard that take before but I'm not mad at it. Shoot, I remember watching the Lakers Nuggets series in the bubble and being amazed at how much better Jokic was at punishing doubles than LeBron was. And we're talking one of the best players in NBA history at passing out of double teams and Jokic looked like he was on another level from THAT guy. I s*** you not, it felt like LeBron created shots out of double teams before defenses could rotate in time like 50% of the time which is a great rate, but with Jokic it felt like 80% of the time he whipped it to a guy before the defense could recover. Absolute madness


At age 24 no less. 09 Lebron wasn't a court-vision Brainiac like he became 17/18-onward, but Jokic was ahead of even that version 2 seasons ago.


Did yall see his no-look pass to Austin Rivers last night?

It was arguably his best pass to date.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#20 » by jalengreen » Fri Nov 19, 2021 8:09 pm

LeBron has always had elite passing vision IMO. He consistently had amazing skip passes in his first stint with Cleveland. Came naturally to him

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