Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo?

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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#21 » by Heej » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:31 pm

jalengreen wrote:LeBron has always had elite passing vision IMO. He consistently had amazing skip passes in his first stint with Cleveland. Came naturally to him

Yup I think his skip passes are his super power, Jokic doesn't have that in his bag with either hand while going downhill the way LeBron can. Not with anywhere near the touch and velocity.

But from a standstill as a pivot passer or from the post I think Jokic is better at reading defenses. And as far as passing on the move goes, while Jokic may not be better than LeBron at it (who's a wing player and arguably the best pnr passer in NBA history due to his skip passes) he's still the best Center ever at passing on the move imo. Which kinda just adds to my whole case that he's the best pnr partner you could ask for and thus Curry-Jokic is the GOAT PNR duo. Just my 2 cents tho bruv
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#22 » by -Luke- » Sat Nov 20, 2021 3:57 pm

henshao wrote:
70sFan wrote:All these choices are amazing. I'd add another one - Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. I've seen Magic playing quite a lot of P&Rs in 1990 and he executed it to perfection. Give him someone like Bird and it becomes impossible to deal with.

Is this the best duo possible? Probably not, but it's up there.


I forget what it was, a college all-star game or something, where Larry and Magic briefly played together. I'll never forget watching Magic dish it behind the back on a drive to larry, who then no-looked it back to Magic. God help whoever had to defend such a duo

I think I read once that it was an international tournament where the U.S. had a team with the best college players. Magic and Bird both came off the bench as the coach relied on his own players (If I remember correctly it was the Kentucky coach). Legend has it that Magic and Bird absolutely humiliated the "A-Team" in practice.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#23 » by Heej » Sat Nov 20, 2021 6:27 pm

Colbinii wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:
Heej wrote:It's wild to think about because I haven't really heard that take before but I'm not mad at it. Shoot, I remember watching the Lakers Nuggets series in the bubble and being amazed at how much better Jokic was at punishing doubles than LeBron was. And we're talking one of the best players in NBA history at passing out of double teams and Jokic looked like he was on another level from THAT guy. I s*** you not, it felt like LeBron created shots out of double teams before defenses could rotate in time like 50% of the time which is a great rate, but with Jokic it felt like 80% of the time he whipped it to a guy before the defense could recover. Absolute madness


At age 24 no less. 09 Lebron wasn't a court-vision Brainiac like he became 17/18-onward, but Jokic was ahead of even that version 2 seasons ago.


Did yall see his no-look pass to Austin Rivers last night?

It was arguably his best pass to date.

Bruh lol had to look this up. Wtf man. Not only at the pass but why do these NBA players not have a left hand lol. No need for an inside jelly reverse on that. Another reason why I like Steph so much, great left hand. The play in question for y'all:

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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#24 » by SideshowBob » Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:24 pm

Colbinii wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:
Heej wrote:It's wild to think about because I haven't really heard that take before but I'm not mad at it. Shoot, I remember watching the Lakers Nuggets series in the bubble and being amazed at how much better Jokic was at punishing doubles than LeBron was. And we're talking one of the best players in NBA history at passing out of double teams and Jokic looked like he was on another level from THAT guy. I s*** you not, it felt like LeBron created shots out of double teams before defenses could rotate in time like 50% of the time which is a great rate, but with Jokic it felt like 80% of the time he whipped it to a guy before the defense could recover. Absolute madness


At age 24 no less. 09 Lebron wasn't a court-vision Brainiac like he became 17/18-onward, but Jokic was ahead of even that version 2 seasons ago.


Did yall see his no-look pass to Austin Rivers last night?

It was arguably his best pass to date.


Yup saw it live. Then tried to bash my head in at Rivers afterwards.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#25 » by jalengreen » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:00 pm

Heej wrote:
jalengreen wrote:LeBron has always had elite passing vision IMO. He consistently had amazing skip passes in his first stint with Cleveland. Came naturally to him

Yup I think his skip passes are his super power, Jokic doesn't have that in his bag with either hand while going downhill the way LeBron can. Not with anywhere near the touch and velocity.

But from a standstill as a pivot passer or from the post I think Jokic is better at reading defenses. And as far as passing on the move goes, while Jokic may not be better than LeBron at it (who's a wing player and arguably the best pnr passer in NBA history due to his skip passes) he's still the best Center ever at passing on the move imo. Which kinda just adds to my whole case that he's the best pnr partner you could ask for and thus Curry-Jokic is the GOAT PNR duo. Just my 2 cents tho bruv


I don't disagree, I was just adding that younger LeBron's vision was underrated and it was a skill he's always had. I agree with the take on Jokic
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#26 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:46 pm

Heej wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:
At age 24 no less. 09 Lebron wasn't a court-vision Brainiac like he became 17/18-onward, but Jokic was ahead of even that version 2 seasons ago.


Did yall see his no-look pass to Austin Rivers last night?

It was arguably his best pass to date.

Bruh lol had to look this up. Wtf man. Not only at the pass but why do these NBA players not have a left hand lol. No need for an inside jelly reverse on that. Another reason why I like Steph so much, great left hand. The play in question for y'all:


Now this was insane :o
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#27 » by Peregrine01 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:30 pm

Heej wrote:
Colbinii wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:
At age 24 no less. 09 Lebron wasn't a court-vision Brainiac like he became 17/18-onward, but Jokic was ahead of even that version 2 seasons ago.


Did yall see his no-look pass to Austin Rivers last night?

It was arguably his best pass to date.

Bruh lol had to look this up. Wtf man. Not only at the pass but why do these NBA players not have a left hand lol. No need for an inside jelly reverse on that. Another reason why I like Steph so much, great left hand. The play in question for y'all:



Jokic has thrown 3 of the most incredible passes I've ever seen in this season alone - all leading to bricks on wide-open looks. Rather befitting of the Nuggets season so far.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#28 » by giordunk » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:09 am

I see the argument for Steph and Jokic but Steph and LeBron would be insane. High basketball IQ roll man except not a dud on offense.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#29 » by AussieBuck » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:12 am

Can't even imagine what Giannis would look like with a pick and roll guard who can shoot and dribble. Hoping to one day find out.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#30 » by DQuinn1575 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:55 pm

-Luke- wrote:
henshao wrote:
70sFan wrote:All these choices are amazing. I'd add another one - Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. I've seen Magic playing quite a lot of P&Rs in 1990 and he executed it to perfection. Give him someone like Bird and it becomes impossible to deal with.

Is this the best duo possible? Probably not, but it's up there.


I forget what it was, a college all-star game or something, where Larry and Magic briefly played together. I'll never forget watching Magic dish it behind the back on a drive to larry, who then no-looked it back to Magic. God help whoever had to defend such a duo

I think I read once that it was an international tournament where the U.S. had a team with the best college players. Magic and Bird both came off the bench as the coach relied on his own players (If I remember correctly it was the Kentucky coach). Legend has it that Magic and Bird absolutely humiliated the "A-Team" in practice.


yes there was an International Invitational Tournament (actually a Round Robin) played in 1978 with Cuba, Yugoslavia, USSR, and USA. THey played in Lexington, North Carolina, and a 3rd site. The USA had the Kentucky team with Robey and Givens that had just won the NCAA title rather convincingly, and added to that stars like Magic, Moncrief, Griffith, and Magic. Legend is the 2nd team with Bird & Magic killed the 1st team in practices. Yugoslavia was pretty good, gave the US a good game, and easily beat the USSR.
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#31 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:16 pm

Nash/Jokic as a pure pick and roll, Curry/Jokic a two men game in general

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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#32 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:24 pm

Heej wrote:It's so obviously Steph and Jokic to me it's not even funny. Think about all the ways you can defend a pnr from most to least aggressive:

For the big man:

Trap - Just no lol Jokic rolls wide open down the lane
Hedge - Leaves you open to a Jokic pop or pump fake and drive
Show and recover - Jokic can roll middy or 3
Up to touch - Jokic can float to 3
Soft or catch hedge - Steph is liable to pull up for 3 or get Jokic open for one
Drop coverage- LOL
Switch - LOL

Ball defender options:

Go under: LOL
Fight over: Steph gets a clear path to the rim causing a defensive breakdown because Jokic sets hefty screens and the big will commit leaving Jokic open for 3
Weak: who cares Steph does great going left
Switch: LOL

Curry is obviously the best pnr ballhandler of all time (primarily due to his insane gravity but also because he's good to elite at every other aspect too, zero weaknesses) so this whole debate is really who can be his best partner. I contend that there's really no other big that can be a threat from all standpoints the way Jokic can. Murray basically played like 2015 Steph in the bubble with Jokic and easily gave the Lakers their biggest fright in the entire playoffs (don't mention Miami, the Lakers hardly took them seriously enough for half the series).

Even someone like Shaq the fact that he isn't a stretch big means that there's certain coverages like up to touch or soft hedges leave enough wiggle room for the big to try and Stave off Curry's shot in time for the guard to fight back into the play. Someone like Dirk can score from all levels just like Jokic can but I personally don't think he's as much of a switch killer as Jokic is at the moment. Jokic will really baby anyone under 6'8 lol. Dirk is probably my second choice but he didn't have the playmaking that Jokic does to dime people up while on the move or when doubled on switches. At least not with the same processing speed, which matters more than anything due to basketball being a game of inches.
The reason I would pick Nash over Curry is that Nash can give you at least 95% of Steph's shooting, but he's much deadlier if the defense decides to send a third man to help asking Sthe ball handler to make a decision.
Rhe moment you turn this into a dribble handoff and the ball is in Jokic's hands is a completely defferent story.

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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#33 » by trex_8063 » Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:26 am

Don't know if it's the best, but I would have loved to see a team built around prime DRob with prime Steve Nash. Fun stuff (and likely a couple-three titles in there).
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Re: Best Possible Pick n Roll Duo? 

Post#34 » by Heej » Wed Nov 24, 2021 1:43 am

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
Heej wrote:It's so obviously Steph and Jokic to me it's not even funny. Think about all the ways you can defend a pnr from most to least aggressive:

For the big man:

Trap - Just no lol Jokic rolls wide open down the lane
Hedge - Leaves you open to a Jokic pop or pump fake and drive
Show and recover - Jokic can roll middy or 3
Up to touch - Jokic can float to 3
Soft or catch hedge - Steph is liable to pull up for 3 or get Jokic open for one
Drop coverage- LOL
Switch - LOL

Ball defender options:

Go under: LOL
Fight over: Steph gets a clear path to the rim causing a defensive breakdown because Jokic sets hefty screens and the big will commit leaving Jokic open for 3
Weak: who cares Steph does great going left
Switch: LOL

Curry is obviously the best pnr ballhandler of all time (primarily due to his insane gravity but also because he's good to elite at every other aspect too, zero weaknesses) so this whole debate is really who can be his best partner. I contend that there's really no other big that can be a threat from all standpoints the way Jokic can. Murray basically played like 2015 Steph in the bubble with Jokic and easily gave the Lakers their biggest fright in the entire playoffs (don't mention Miami, the Lakers hardly took them seriously enough for half the series).

Even someone like Shaq the fact that he isn't a stretch big means that there's certain coverages like up to touch or soft hedges leave enough wiggle room for the big to try and Stave off Curry's shot in time for the guard to fight back into the play. Someone like Dirk can score from all levels just like Jokic can but I personally don't think he's as much of a switch killer as Jokic is at the moment. Jokic will really baby anyone under 6'8 lol. Dirk is probably my second choice but he didn't have the playmaking that Jokic does to dime people up while on the move or when doubled on switches. At least not with the same processing speed, which matters more than anything due to basketball being a game of inches.
The reason I would pick Nash over Curry is that Nash can give you at least 95% of Steph's shooting, but he's much deadlier if the defense decides to send a third man to help asking Sthe ball handler to make a decision.
Rhe moment you turn this into a dribble handoff and the ball is in Jokic's hands is a completely defferent story.

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I agree with a lot of this and I personally think Nash was the greatest shooter of all time before Steph. But I disagree that he approximates 95% of Steph's shooting. There's no doubt in my mind that he's at least 95% as good of a shooter as Steph, but he's not anywhere near 95% the functional shooting threat Steph is due to his mental makeup. Less propensity to both shoot and shoot from deep. I think that's what makes Steph so dangerous as a PNR ballhandler
trex_8063 wrote:Don't know if it's the best, but I would have loved to see a team built around prime DRob with prime Steve Nash. Fun stuff (and likely a couple-three titles in there).

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