what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives

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what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#1 » by falcolombardi » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:34 am

specially those that shaft some players perception in a probably unfair way

the player or team or coach itself can still be properly rated overalm but be shafted over in some particular thingh

example David Robinson is criticized for being dominated by hakeem without mentioning that he was guarding him in single coverage compared to the other way around

not that hakeem was not still the more resilient playoffs scorer and probably would have outplayed robinson anyway if both were in single coverage, but the extent of it may not have been so lopsided
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#2 » by No-more-rings » Tue Nov 23, 2021 1:43 am

Wade’s lack of shooting/3 point shooting can’t lead to elite offenses.
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#3 » by jalengreen » Tue Nov 23, 2021 2:03 am

Not on this board but I always hear people talk about KD not being able to win without Steph, ignoring the differing context of the 2012 and 2015 playoff runs. Just because something didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't have happened... common thing I see. I remembering seeing a quote from Wilt about that idea in regard to his close Game 7 losses to the Celtics but can't find it now
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#4 » by penbeast0 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:07 am

Montrezl Harrell, Rudy Gobert, and even Giannis can't play in the playoffs where coaches can game for them. The reality is that all of them can, you just have to have a coaching strategy that uses them for what they are.
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#5 » by falcolombardi » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:22 am

penbeast0 wrote:Montrezl Harrell, Rudy Gobert, and even Giannis can't play in the playoffs where coaches can game for them. The reality is that all of them can, you just have to have a coaching strategy that uses them for what they are.


harrel concerns are fairly valid as he is arguably a net negative defensively regardless of team construction

gobert and giannis questioning was/were about their value being diminished in playoffs from their incredible regular season value to merely really good one

harrel are about whether he can be a big positive player consisntently when considering his defense, which i think he can for a weaker team deprived of offense stars like the 19 clippers

but i have more doubts about a stronger team, can he be a better defender or a good enough offensive player to be a big part of a strong team despite defense issues?
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#6 » by penbeast0 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:33 am

Harrell is useful if he outscores whoever he is playing since he is a highly efficient scorer. If you have enough strong two way bigs to not need what he brings or if you have so much scoring that you don't use him as a 1st or 2nd option, sure, you probably don't play him, but I don't see this ridiculous difference between the regular season and the playoffs as that significant.
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#7 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:19 pm

Mike made Scottie Pippen
Lebron is the GM
Dream/Admiral when the numbers over their careers show Admiral outplayed Dream overall
Middle linebacker defense is more valuable than rim protection
Steve Kerr is a genius rather than Steve Kerr has really talented players
Wilt was better than Russell because of piles of counting stats
Tim Duncan was a center
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#8 » by Colbinii » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:25 pm

Chris Webber was the reason for the early 2000s Kings dominant stretch of play.

If star players don't see their efficiency increase or even stay the same then they aren't good fits.

Good defenses need to be anchored by centers.

Shooters = Floor Spacers
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#9 » by 70sFan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:36 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Tim Duncan was a center

Duncan certainly was a center, come on :D
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#10 » by feyki » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:37 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Wade’s lack of shooting/3 point shooting can’t lead to elite offenses.


Interesting point is that when he step the line, he hits :D . %43 from the 16-24 range in between the 05/11 playoffs.

Iso plays and crossover nonsenses were paint to see/hear.
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#11 » by falcolombardi » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:44 pm

feyki wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Wade’s lack of shooting/3 point shooting can’t lead to elite offenses.


Interesting point is that when he step the line, he hits :D . %43 from the 16-24 range in between the 05/11 playoffs.

Iso plays and crossover nonsenses were paint to see/hear.


peak wade in the mid 90's with the shortened line would have given jordan a run for his money
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#12 » by Texas Chuck » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:47 pm

70sFan wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Tim Duncan was a center

Duncan certainly was a center, come on :D


Let's take a look, shall we?

Played with Admiral through 03. Duncan is the PF.
Then 3 years of Rasho. Duncan is clearly the PF.
Then Oberto. Who is shorter than Duncan, but plays a center's game. Something we also see along the way with Malik Rose and later DeJuan Blair. And of course Splitter was only a center.

Did Duncan play center? Of course he did. But so did his peers KG and Dirk yet we never label them a center because they aren't the GOAT PF we need to label something else so our favorite guy can be the GOAT PF. When its all nonsense because no matter what position you call Duncan he was better than both of them as a basketball player.

But Tim Duncan spent the bulk of his prime playing next to a center. So calling him a PF needs to stop being an issue for people.
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#13 » by falcolombardi » Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:53 pm

power forward vs center (except in modern basketball) sometimes comes down to who is the taller guy or who is the guy taking a bit more jumpers to space the floor

robinson and duncan were effectively dual centers imo
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#14 » by algope » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:40 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:
70sFan wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:Tim Duncan was a center

Duncan certainly was a center, come on :D


Let's take a look, shall we?

Played with Admiral through 03. Duncan is the PF.
Then 3 years of Rasho. Duncan is clearly the PF.
Then Oberto. Who is shorter than Duncan, but plays a center's game. Something we also see along the way with Malik Rose and later DeJuan Blair. And of course Splitter was only a center.

Did Duncan play center? Of course he did. But so did his peers KG and Dirk yet we never label them a center because they aren't the GOAT PF we need to label something else so our favorite guy can be the GOAT PF. When its all nonsense because no matter what position you call Duncan he was better than both of them as a basketball player.

But Tim Duncan spent the bulk of his prime playing next to a center. So calling him a PF needs to stop being an issue for people.


Robinson, Nesterovic and Oberto are clearly centers but Rose and Splitter no so much. Rose for me is clearly a PF and Splitter is for me a PF-C. Doesn´t have a shoot prototipical of a PF but is more mobile than Duncan. I see Duncan as the 5 and Splitter-Rose playing the 4 role. In fact, Oberto was a C in Europe but Splitter played both positions in Europe and was too mobile for a traditional 5.
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#15 » by Colbinii » Tue Nov 23, 2021 4:49 pm

Duncan is clearly a center. How else can KG be the GOAT PF?
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#16 » by 70sFan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:39 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:Let's take a look, shall we?

Sure, but at first you have to realize that it's possible to play two centers lineup. You'd have to also define what you mean by "center". The quickest definition I can think of is a bigman (usually the biggest on the floor), who focused the most on interior/post offense and interior/post defense. I know it's not perfect and it's fluid in basketball, but positions don't make much sense anyway.


Played with Admiral through 03. Duncan is the PF.

Again, I'd say that they played two centers lineup. If you have to decide who is the center between them, I don't think I'd go with Robinson for all years.

Duncan certainly started as a forward in his rookie season and Robinson was still the ultimate inside pressence. Around 2001, the tendencies started to change though. Robinson played less and less as the main inside scorer and Duncan started to occupy the low post area more. Timmy bulked up considerably during that time and he became Spurs main rim protector.

To be honest, I don't see any reason to call Robinson a center over Duncan after 2000 (especially after 2001), other than his height.

Then 3 years of Rasho. Duncan is clearly the PF.

Rasho played very limited mintues in 2006, so it's 2 years at most. Rasho almost didn't play at all in the playoffs either (other than in 2004), so it's questionable to even include him.

It's arguable here, but Duncan was clearly their rim protector and inside force.

Then Oberto. Who is shorter than Duncan, but plays a center's game. Something we also see along the way with Malik Rose and later DeJuan Blair. And of course Splitter was only a center.


Oberto's game was the prototype 1980s PF role, not center. He's smaller than Duncan and he wasn't a rim protector. I don't know how you can call him a center in Spurs team.

Malik Rose and DeJuan Blair were both scrappy undersized post defenders in Oakley/Mahorn model (except far worse). They gave you next to nothing in terms of rim protection or post play. If you call them centers next to Duncan, then I hope that you also call Ewing a PF.

Did Duncan play center? Of course he did. But so did his peers KG and Dirk yet we never label them a center because they aren't the GOAT PF we need to label something else so our favorite guy can be the GOAT PF. When its all nonsense because no matter what position you call Duncan he was better than both of them as a basketball player.

It has nothing to do with calling someone else a GOAT PF (it doesn't matter at all). You can't compare Dirk or KG sporadic moments at center position to Duncan, who after 2000 played clearly a traditional center role.

I mean, Duncan was an imposing 6'11 260 lbs man with long arms who played power game, crashed the glass, spent majority of the time in the post and was the GOAT-level rim protector. How can you call him a PF? He was bigger than most of the top 15 centers in NBA history and had more "center" game than most of them as well.

But Tim Duncan spent the bulk of his prime playing next to a center. So calling him a PF needs to stop being an issue for people.

These "centers" Duncan played with weren't rim protectors, post players or the main rebounders, so how can you call them centers? Most of them weren't even as big as Duncan...
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#17 » by G35 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 5:42 pm

Charles Barkley's defense was that much of a detriment to his teams

Stockton was not capable of taking over offensively

Marion was a product of Steve Nash

Draymond is not a product of his environment
I'm so tired of the typical......
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#18 » by 70sFan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:42 pm

Shaquille O'Neal got the dunk 90% of the time when he wasn't doubled in the post. People don't realize how few dunks Shaq really got from the post. Usually, he took a right handed hook shots or short fadeaways/one handed push shots. He wasn't more efficient from the block than someone like Kareem or Hakeem and efficiency is not what made him GOAT-level post player.
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#19 » by 70sFan » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:43 pm

G35 wrote:Marion was a product of Steve Nash

Draymond is not a product of his environment

So in the same post you try to sell the idea that Marion wasn't a product of the system he played in, but far superior player than him actually is/was?
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Re: what do you think are some overblown/exxagerated common narratives 

Post#20 » by penbeast0 » Tue Nov 23, 2021 8:24 pm

I don't think that's unreasonable. In a normal system that revolves around a PG and/or post up center, Draymond isn't the strong playmaker he has become in the Warriors system. Without the playmaking, Draymond isn't close to the offensive player that Marion is even in the pre-Nash Suns (though still a better defender and that's not a slight to Marion who was a great defender).
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