Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense

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Hakeem vs Duncan for primes

Hakeem was better on both ends
30
60%
Duncan was better on both ends
6
12%
Hakeem better on offense, Duncan on defense
10
20%
Duncan better on offense, Hakeem on defense
4
8%
 
Total votes: 50

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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#21 » by No-more-rings » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:10 am

eminence wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
eminence wrote:I consider them offensive equals and prefer Duncan on defense.

What makes Duncan better on defense in your eyes? Duncan has some impeccable team results defensively for sure, Hakeem has some pretty impressive years as well although he definitely had less help on defense.


I value RS a bit more than some, so that’s a part of it, I think Duncans fundamentals (hehe) just let him more consistently bring impact from game to game and season to season. I answered for ‘prime’ where I think that consistency factor carries a bit of weight. Peak for peak I probably still go Duncan but it’s truly neck and neck there.

I get it. Duncan probably more consistent, but I don’t think his peak defense case is all that strong really. Hakeem’s 1990 season is pretty impeccable, a 4.0 DBPM and 4.6 blks per game while also anchoring the best defense in the league.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#22 » by NRSV » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:51 am

These results legitimately surprise me.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#23 » by 90sAllDecade » Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:53 am

Hakeem is better offensively and defensively.

Hakeem was a better player and had a better peak.

Duncan had better longevity, and better team support for his career.

Both were generational talents.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#24 » by migya » Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:27 am

90sAllDecade wrote:Hakeem is better offensively and defensively.

Hakeem was a better player and had a better peak.

Duncan had better longevity, and better team support for his career.

Both were generational talents.



That's it in a nutshell.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#25 » by eminence » Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:38 am

The idea of anyone having a clearly better peak than ‘03 Duncan is kinda nuts to me. Like what else did you want the man to do?
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#26 » by No-more-rings » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:33 pm

eminence wrote:The idea of anyone having a clearly better peak than ‘03 Duncan is kinda nuts to me. Like what else did you want the man to do?

I clearly stated defensive peak. Duncan’s defense ever quite matched 1990 Hakeem in my mind.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#27 » by eminence » Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:53 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
eminence wrote:The idea of anyone having a clearly better peak than ‘03 Duncan is kinda nuts to me. Like what else did you want the man to do?

I clearly stated defensive peak. Duncan’s defense ever quite matched 1990 Hakeem in my mind.


My post wasn’t really directed at you, but we’ve had ~4 posts go for peak Hakeem, some implying by a fair margin.

For ‘90, ehh, he led a very good defense (not great), bad offense team that got blitzed in round 1. Had a decent defensive team around him. Never been one for much weight on box-score, especially on defense. It’s obviously a very strong defensive season, but I don’t see it all that close to other best seasons for results (eg ‘08 KG for a non-Duncan/Hakeem season).
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#28 » by ty 4191 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:36 am

Who faced better teams in the playoffs?

Who had a (much) better coach and infrastructure in place?

Who had better teammates?
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#29 » by ty 4191 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 1:31 am

Teammates' True Shooting Added:

Code: Select all

Duncan Teammates True Shooting Added
1998   50
1999   45
2000   83
2001   272
2002   78
2003   164
2004   -30
2005   45
2006   188
2007   179
2008   10
2009   44
2010   90
2011   370
2012   413
2013   457
2014   465
2015   265
2016   354

Sum   3542
Average   186


Code: Select all

Hakeem Teammates True Shooting Added
1985   108
1986   -129
1987   -214
1988   -208
1989   81
1990   -99
1991   -102
1992   36
1993   159
1994   122
1995   303
1996   149
1997   291
1998   291
1999   211
2000   238
2001   285

Sum   1522
Average   89
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#30 » by No-more-rings » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:47 pm

eminence wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
eminence wrote:The idea of anyone having a clearly better peak than ‘03 Duncan is kinda nuts to me. Like what else did you want the man to do?

I clearly stated defensive peak. Duncan’s defense ever quite matched 1990 Hakeem in my mind.


My post wasn’t really directed at you, but we’ve had ~4 posts go for peak Hakeem, some implying by a fair margin.

For ‘90, ehh, he led a very good defense (not great), bad offense team that got blitzed in round 1. Had a decent defensive team around him. Never been one for much weight on box-score, especially on defense. It’s obviously a very strong defensive season, but I don’t see it all that close to other best seasons for results (eg ‘08 KG for a non-Duncan/Hakeem season).

Well i think in general it is a little complicated comparing them. Defensive box scores may not hold significant weight but don’t know what else to look at when we don’t have large amounts of data for those Hakeem seasons, and the amount of help they had in an average season isn’t even close. Duncan wouldn’t have reeled out all time defenses with that cast either.

Duncan was more all around from the start than Hakeem, but Hakeem likely reached higher heights on both ends even if they both didn’t happen in the same season. I interpreted Elgee has having Hakeem better on defense and Duncan on offense.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#31 » by Doctor MJ » Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:51 pm

No-more-rings wrote:Vote above for how you would compare the 2 as players.


At their respective peaks, I'd rank Hakeem ahead on both sides of the ball.

I do think however that Duncan contributed more total impact in his career.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#32 » by ty 4191 » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:21 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:I do think however that Duncan contributed more total impact in his career.


What specifically are you basing this on? I'm curious as to your specific sources and methodology.

Thanks!
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#33 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:31 pm

I mean the Spurs had the best or near as defense in the league year after year after year. Disappointing so many on this board still think that's because of Bruce Bowen or Danny Green apparently.

Shows you how much voters screwing around with accolades impacts perception. If Duncan rightfully had the 5 or 6 DPOY's he deserves we wouldn't be hearing about how Dream has this massive edge over him. But because he has none and because Duncan defended positionally way better than well basically anyone except Russell instead of having to fly around chasing shots, people have no idea how good he was. Somehow. In 2021. It's crazy.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#34 » by No-more-rings » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:04 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I mean the Spurs had the best or near as defense in the league year after year after year. Disappointing so many on this board still think that's because of Bruce Bowen or Danny Green apparently.

Shows you how much voters screwing around with accolades impacts perception. If Duncan rightfully had the 5 or 6 DPOY's he deserves we wouldn't be hearing about how Dream has this massive edge over him. But because he has none and because Duncan defended positionally way better than well basically anyone except Russell instead of having to fly around chasing shots, people have no idea how good he was. Somehow. In 2021. It's crazy.

I don't think anyone here implied that Duncan wasn't the driving force behind the Spurs defense lol or that he wasn't an ATG defender.

Where you coming up with these claims?
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#35 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:11 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I mean the Spurs had the best or near as defense in the league year after year after year. Disappointing so many on this board still think that's because of Bruce Bowen or Danny Green apparently.

Shows you how much voters screwing around with accolades impacts perception. If Duncan rightfully had the 5 or 6 DPOY's he deserves we wouldn't be hearing about how Dream has this massive edge over him. But because he has none and because Duncan defended positionally way better than well basically anyone except Russell instead of having to fly around chasing shots, people have no idea how good he was. Somehow. In 2021. It's crazy.

I don't think anyone here implied that Duncan wasn't the driving force behind the Spurs defense lol or that he wasn't an ATG defender.

Where you coming up with these claims?



Look at the anonymous poll results. Or some of the comments itt acting like Duncan isn't close to Dream.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#36 » by LukaTheGOAT » Sat Nov 27, 2021 6:13 am

We don't have plus-minus data for Hakeem, but we do have things that attempt to estimate his impact and he does seem a tier up from Duncan defensively.

And Hakeem has arguably the greatest improvement of any star on offense in NBA history; it is such that I think he becomes a better scorer than Duncan and quite frankly I am not sure how much passing value Duncan is adding over Hakeem.

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Duncan maybe did have better fundamentals on defense, but Hakeem is considered better on that end because of all the ways he could make up for it. He was quicker and moved better laterally on the perimeter. He got off the floor quicker, and from the numbers I have seen, seemed in tracking to check out as a better man defender. "Opposing All-Star centers lost nearly 4 points per 36 and more than 5 points of efficiency against him during the heart of his career" per Backpicks https://backpicks.com/2018/03/25/backpicks-goat-hakeem-olajuwon/
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#37 » by kendogg » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:01 am

Hakeem had the better peak on both ends. Duncan had the better prime, because his prime is so much longer. And Duncan had the better career overall. Duncan is more consistent, less likely to take a bad shot or fall for a fake. But Hakeem is more athletic and has better post moves and for his peak he was comparable to anyone in the history of the league as a 2-way player. For big men, only Wilt, Shaq and Kareem has a case against Hakeem peak.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#38 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:35 pm

eminence wrote:The idea of anyone having a clearly better peak than ‘03 Duncan is kinda nuts to me. Like what else did you want the man to do?


Well I don't think the offensive approach was all that advanced, and I don't think the team wins a title in most years even back then. If they don't win a title that year, no one's talking about Duncan having the GOAT peak at that time - and granted that doesn't mean he wouldn't deserve to be, but I think we need to be careful with the tendency for the "he won the chip by himself"-narrative to overwhelm everything else.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#39 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:38 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:I do think however that Duncan contributed more total impact in his career.


What specifically are you basing this on? I'm curious as to your specific sources and methodology.

Thanks!


I think that Duncan played a very long career where he had major impact within his team's scheme the entire time, and also ended up being a massive influence on culture up until whatever happened with Kawhi.

I think Hakeem's impact was spottier because a) he started more raw, b) he didn't last as long, and c) in general he wasn't in an organization that was anywhere near as beneficial to his success as Duncan did - though shout out to Rudy T.
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Re: Hakeem vs Duncan: Offense and Defense 

Post#40 » by Texas Chuck » Sat Nov 27, 2021 8:45 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:
eminence wrote:The idea of anyone having a clearly better peak than ‘03 Duncan is kinda nuts to me. Like what else did you want the man to do?


Well I don't think the offensive approach was all that advanced, and I don't think the team wins a title in most years even back then. If they don't win a title that year, no one's talking about Duncan having the GOAT peak at that time - and granted that doesn't mean he wouldn't deserve to be, but I think we need to be careful with the tendency for the "he won the chip by himself"-narrative to overwhelm everything else.


The obvious counter is if the offensive scheme was basic as you suggest, and the talent was low, as we all know to be true, doesn't that actually strengthen Duncan's case? Because that was the 7th most efficient offense in the league with a mediocre young Tony Parker as the 2nd best offensive player and not much offensive depth behind that. We already know his defensive bonafides are unquestionable that year.

And I disagree the Spurs winning the title is why his season is held in such esteem. We have other great seasons by players who didn't win the title that we esteem highly.
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