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Who was the better player?

What Giannis did to the Suns in the finals this year was just disgusting.

He completely destroyed them on both sides of the court.

He was literally guarding 1 thru 5 while flying around as a help defender and rebounder.

It's insane that he was able to stay in front of Booker and cp3 on the perimeter and smother their shots while also guarding Ayton in the paint.


Also for the record Giannis game 6 is the greatest single-game performance in the history of the NBA finals.

I don't know if Wade was a better player, but i definitely find his playoff run to be more impressive. Playing nearly 42 mpg, playing every single game(Giannis missed 2), destroying 2 60+ win teams in the final rounds and averaged overall 28.4/5.9/5.7 59.3 ts%(+5.7) 26.9 PER 9.3 BPM while playing 2 of the league's top 5 defenses and 3 of the top 10.

I feel like we wouldn't be looking at Giannis in nearly the same light if Brooklyn was healthy, because that would be chalked up as another year where his team didn't make a lot of noise. Fair or unfair. With Giannis, I still feel like i need to see him dominate actual elite defensive front courts before I'm totally sold on his offense.

No-more-rings wrote:I don't know if Wade was a better player, but i definitely find his playoff run to be more impressive. Playing nearly 42 mpg, playing every single game(Giannis missed 2), destroying 2 60+ win teams in the final rounds and averaged overall 28.4/5.9/5.7 59.3 ts%(+5.7) 26.9 PER 9.3 BPM while playing 2 of the league's top 5 defenses and 3 of the top 10.

I feel like we wouldn't be looking at Giannis in nearly the same light if Brooklyn was healthy, because that would be chalked up as another year where his team didn't make a lot of noise. Fair or unfair. With Giannis, I still feel like i need to see him dominate actual elite defensive front courts before I'm totally sold on his offense.

More on that:

I think you can argue Wade was better in the RS and PS.

06 RS Wade
AuPM/g-5.5
RAPTOR-9.16

21 RS Giannis
AuPM/g-4.5
RAPTOR-6.6

Wade has proven more PS resiliance as a scorer and a player in my opinon.

Wade in the 06 postseason, Inflation Adjusted (adjusted to a 110 league average).
28.9 pts per 75 (rTS% of 7.1%).

Giannis in the 21 PS under the same lense is at 29 pts per 75 (rTS% of 3.1%).

Furthermore, Wade has a history of being prolific in the PS (06-10)

PS AuPM/G
06-6.0


What is even more remarkable about Wade's 06 PS run that he won a championship with was that his PS Cast's AuPM/G was a solid negative(Relative AuPM value of the 2nd through the 8th-best player on a team, among players who logged at least 40 percent of team’s minutes. Value is relative to +0.75.). This means that his cast was below average (0 is average), by a notable margin, yet he was able to take such a team to championship heights at such a young age.

For reference for how historical a feat this is, AuPM/G goes back to 1997 and goes until 2021. Wade's 06 supporting cast is the WEAKEST EVER to win a championship in the stat's history according to the article on the Backpicks site. 06 Wade's run was nothing short of amazing.

Comparatively, Giannis comes out here PS AuPM/G

Giannis
19-4.5
20-4.4
21-4.7

Giannis looks good but falls short of Wade.

And it isn't just AuPM/G that speaks of Wade's prowess.

PS Backpicks BPM

Wade
06-7
09-4.7
10-7
11-6.2

Giannis
19-6.3
20-6.12
21-6.56


PS RAPTOR

Wade
06-9.88
09-6.34
10-9.39
11-7.31

Giannis
19-7.1
20-4.8
21-6.6

In every single metric, Wade peaked higher than Giannis in single year impact (his 06 run specifically mentioned in the OP's question), and their 3 year spans most definitely look comparable. Giannis peaked higher in the RS, but in terms of PS performance, Wade had a tendency to raise his game, and regression by Giannis on offense is something that was certainly a real thing in 2019 and 2020 for the playoffs.

To add color to the numbers, when you consider Wade's teams were middling teams in 09 and 10, when he got matched up against tough opponents early on, that makes his numbers look better, as he didn't get the opportunity to accumulate prettier box-score numbers to add to his PS impact like Giannis did. In some ways, you could argue the numbers I posted for Giannis in 19 and 20 are not reflective (and are inflated) in terms of his true impact against tougher teams.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:..

Thanks for posting all this. I don’t tend to put as much weight into those sort of metrics as you, i just tend to rank by who I believe gives me a better chance at a title in a vacuum. You’re right that Wade had a very weak cast as far as championship casts go, it may be the weakest that a guard has ever had that resulted in a title. That doesn’t neccesarily mean Wade is better than all others, but the fact that Wade can take that cast to a title there shouldn’t be any doubt he could also lead a really dominant title team with the right support.

Frankly i think Wade’s resilency in the playoffs is borderline top 10 level if not right in there, I don’t think he really has any significant number of series if any where he was healthy and just flatly underperformed or was bad. He has like 1 or maybe 2 series tops between the whole 06-11 period.

Giannis in his prime already lost 2 winnable series due primarily to him underperforming, that wasn’t due to health in any noticeable way. He’s generally been really great outside of that, but him putting up 35/12 or whatever on the Suns doesn’t conclusively make him better than Wade to me.

It's weird. Like, in a way, Giannis. But I think 2006-2010 Wade was a force that was essentially unstoppable in a way that I don't really buy that Giannis is/was. Giannis got extremely lucky w. all the injuries last year.

Pelly24 wrote:It's weird. Like, in a way, Giannis. But I think 2006-2010 Wade was a force that was essentially unstoppable in a way that I don't really buy that Giannis is/was. Giannis got extremely lucky w. all the injuries last year.

dont you think defense makes up the Gap or at least most of it?

falcolombardi wrote:

Pelly24 wrote:It's weird. Like, in a way, Giannis. But I think 2006-2010 Wade was a force that was essentially unstoppable in a way that I don't really buy that Giannis is/was. Giannis got extremely lucky w. all the injuries last year.

dont you think defense makes up the Gap or at least most of it?

I think kind of, but Wade like...there's no way what happened to 2020 Giannis happens to any version of peak Wade. Maybe 2021 Giannis is simply better. But wade like...I'm only taking MJ and like LeBron over him, definitely. Then it's kind of a toss up. Give peak Wade two top 25-30 guys they also get the chip last year, and I think they beat the nets in 5 or 6 games. Wade was just amazing, his half court game and passing instincts better. Not the defender Giannis was, but one of the GOAT guard shot-blockers, if not the actual best.

Making the Giannis got lucky because of injuries argument while ignoring that Giannis' 2020 series exit was bookmarked by ankle injuries is all kinds of special.

AussieBuck wrote:Making the Giannis got lucky because of injuries argument while ignoring that Giannis' 2020 series exit was bookmarked by ankle injuries is all kinds of special.

Giannis averaged 35/13/5/1/2 on 66 TS% with DPOY defence in the finals.


He legitimately has an argument for the best finals performance of all time.

Also, Giannis had the second-most 30 pt/ 10 reb games in a single playoff run in NBA history, one game shy of tying Shaq in 1990-2000 (13 games)


As he Averaged 30.2 pts/ 12.8 rebs/ 5.1 asts/ 1 stl/ 1.2 blks for the 2021 playoffs

This is not close.

21 Giannis is a better player then 2006 Wade.

NBA Finals 2021: Game Score ranks Giannis Antetokounmpo's series as best in NBA history


https://www.sportingnews.com/au/nba/news/nba-finals-2021-game-score-ranks-giannis-antetokounmpos-series-as-best-in-nba-history/1rompwp7uej0e1msrh2jmtflr5

I'd evaluate 06 Wade behind 09 and 10 Wade, clearly. 09 and 10 Wade was as good as 19/21 Giannis.

21 Phoenix Suns is a historically weak Finals team IMO, I think 06' Wade is the better and more impactful player given the same opponent more often than not

Asianiac_24 wrote:21 Phoenix Suns is a historically weak Finals team IMO, I think 06' Wade is the better and more impactful player given the same opponent more often than not

This myth continues to get more laughable every time Phoenix steamrolls another "legit contender".

Asianiac_24 wrote:21 Phoenix Suns is a historically weak Finals team IMO, I think 06' Wade is the better and more impactful player given the same opponent more often than not

They had the 3rd highest SRS and were one game behind #1 seed in the West. Doesn't seem historically weak at all - they're not exactly struggling this season either.

In fact, I think a team from the West from within the past 20 years being historically weak seems highly unlikely....

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:21 Phoenix Suns is a historically weak Finals team IMO, I think 06' Wade is the better and more impactful player given the same opponent more often than not

They had the 3rd highest SRS and were one game behind #1 seed in the West. Doesn't seem historically weak at all - they're not exactly struggling this season either.

In fact, I think a team from the West from within the past 20 years being historically weak seems highly unlikely....

The Suns were a young team who had a fairly mediocre path to the finals there’s no doubt about it. A Kawhi-less Clippers?

Who cares what their SRS was?

What team that came out of the West in the past decade were the Suns better than?

The Suns beat a hobbled Lakers with Lebron being old and him and AD hurt, a Nuggets without Murray yes that’s a big deal actually and as i said the Clippers without Kawhi. Like people have got be kidding me to pretend the Suns were some super strong opponent and Giannis was better than Wade because he ripped them to shreds. That’s what his entire case has been in this thread.

No-more-rings wrote:

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:21 Phoenix Suns is a historically weak Finals team IMO, I think 06' Wade is the better and more impactful player given the same opponent more often than not

They had the 3rd highest SRS and were one game behind #1 seed in the West. Doesn't seem historically weak at all - they're not exactly struggling this season either.

In fact, I think a team from the West from within the past 20 years being historically weak seems highly unlikely....

The Suns were a young team who had a fairly mediocre path to the finals there’s no doubt about it. A Kawhi-less Clippers?

Who cares what their SRS was?

What team that came out of the West in the past decade were the Suns better than?

The Suns beat a hobbled Lakers with Lebron being old and him and AD hurt, a Nuggets without Murray yes that’s a big deal actually and as i said the Clippers without Kawhi. Like people have got be kidding me to pretend the Suns were some super strong opponent and Giannis was better than Wade because he ripped them to shreds. That’s what his entire case has been in this thread.

Why did you even bother saying the rest, because this is the real reason why people say they're weak. If the Lakers did the same exact path, even beating injured teams - they would not be nearly as contested (except Lebron haters).

I mean what team did the 2015 Warriors beat?

Also, he said HISTORICALLY WEAK FINALS team - why on earth would you only compare them to the Western conference teams? They're significantly weaker than the Toronto Raptors - they look about the same level at a minimum? The 15 Cavs? The 14 Heat? The 09 Magic? The 10 Lakers and Celtics? 03 Spurs? The 06 Heat themselves?

I mean I can name so many teams that are way worse than the Suns, so to say they're historically weak is flat out ignorant. You really want to argue whether the 18 Cavs, 07 Cavs, 99 Knicks and 01 Sixers are on the same level as the 21 Suns. What makes the Suns "historically weak" but the 15 Warriors not? Why are the 91 Lakers not an historically weak team, but the 21 Suns are? Because they had Magic Johnson?

When we use historically weak what are we saying here? There are probably near 30 teams worse than the Phoenix Suns that have made the finals.


Who cares about their SRS, their record, and the fact that they made the finals - and that they just won their 17th game in a row. So in other words, there is basically nothing they could do to disprove that they are an historically weak finals team. They would have to literally win an NBA championship, the same way Dirk had to win one - to retroactively prove that they are a great team. The entire argument is based on conjecture, they were one of the best teams in the league and nothing happened in the playoffs to prove otherwise - the thinking against them is backward. No one proved they are pretenders, so why on earth would someone assume they are?

They are not the greatest team of all time, but to act like they weren't one of the best teams in the league in 2021 is ignorant. If you don't disagree that they are one of the best teams in the league, then how isn't the Bucks beating them impressive?


The Suns do not have a real superstar and they came out of nowhere - people were banking on the LA teams winning and just have a hard time accepting that there is no promise at all the LA teams would win. The whole "the Lakers were injured, that's why they lost" is one of the lamest narratives in the 21, injuries was part of their identity and is the entire reason why they were the 7th seed in the first place - they weren't a great team, just like they're not now. It wasn't like it was some fluke injury that took out their superstar at the time of need, Davis was not good nearly the entire season - the fact is the Lakers probably wouldn't have won regardless, and the Suns were not fully healthy during that series either. People just didn't want to accept that a team they didn't expect to be good was better than a team they expected to be the favorites.

Like if the Suns aren't a legit finals team in 2021, who were? Name them.

06’ Wade felt like one of those players where if your team has to go up against, there’s this sense of “we could lose this series to this guy alone” vibe. Shaq, LeBron, Durant, Curry, Wade, and 06 Kobe to me had that aura. Giannis is amazing, but I don’t think he ever had that aura.

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Why did you even bother saying the rest, because this is the real reason why people say they're weak. If the Lakers did the same exact path, even beating injured teams - they would not be nearly as contested (except Lebron haters).

West or not they were not really historically a strong finals opponent even if weak may be pushing it. If they had beaten the Bucks they definitely would've been looked at as one of the weakest championship teams of the past several decades. I don't think anyone is calling the Suns garbage or anything.

The Lakers beat a healthy Nuggets team, not one missing Murray and they did it easily.

HeartBreakKid wrote:I mean what team did the 2015 Warriors beat?

They dismantled a pretty good Rockets with Harden+Dwight rather easily.

HeartBreakKid wrote:Also, he said HISTORICALLY WEAK FINALS team - why on earth would you only compare them to the Western conference teams? They're significantly weaker than the Toronto Raptors - they look about the same level at a minimum? The 15 Cavs? The 14 Heat? The 09 Magic? The 10 Lakers and Celtics? 03 Spurs? The 06 Heat themselves?

I mean I can name so many teams that are way worse than the Suns, so to say they're historically weak is flat out ignorant. You really want to argue whether the 18 Cavs, 07 Cavs, 99 Knicks and 01 Sixers are on the same level as the 21 Suns. What makes the Suns "historically weak" but the 15 Warriors not? Why are the 91 Lakers not an historically weak team, but the 21 Suns are? Because they had Magic Johnson?

When we use historically weak what are we saying here? There are probably near 30 teams worse than the Phoenix Suns that have made the finals.

So i just plain disagree with a lot of this. I don't think those Suns were on the level of the 10 Lakers, Celtics or even 09 Magic. They were a really good young team with a few older guys, that didn't have a superstar and weren't truly dominant on either end. I mean i know they were 5th and 9th in O and D rating in the regular season, but in the playoffs were 10th of 15 on O, and 4th on d in the playoffs despite all the injured competition.

I think you're getting way too caught up in labels and semantics in regards to that comment.

I think the main reason people are pushing back on this, is because people seems to be foaming at the mouth at Giannis finals performance and somehow calling it one of the greatest finals performances ever and don't want to contextualize anything.

Wade beat and dominated 2 teams back to back that were pretty easily better than that Suns team, and at least one of them was easily a better defense. Yes i believe the 06 Pistons and Mavs were easily better. I think it would be easy to make that case too. But no one cares. Giannis beat and dominated a good, but unproven Suns team and now he's a goat finals performer.

People live in the moment, and recency bias is shining through in the poll results. Giannis' run was a few months ago, Wade's was a decade and a half ago.

Giannis was really great, i don't deny it. I simply don't think he has a long enough track record of dominance against great teams/defenses to put him ahead of Wade yet. Others are because of one or 2 series. Good for them.