Who on the Top 10 GOAT list is most overrated?

[SeniorWalker]

When I look at the self-manufactured superteams and the ultra-weird circumstances like 2016 and 2020...he slips to 5.

to be clear, the circumstances of the 2020 playoffs due to the covid pandemic make you put lebron lower?

Well, I wouldn't say that exactly for 2020. LeBron didn't manufacture covid in a Chinese lab as far as I know (just a joke guys, lay off me)

What I will say about 2020 is that it's abundantly clear most of the stars did not want to be there. Especially teams like the clippers and bucks, who had multiple players iirc say outright they didn't, among others. There was too much going on and basketball was not the most important thing on most people's minds. That and removing the common pressures of playoff basketball like traveling, home and away arenas....yeah. the finals opponent they ended up (Miami) with was rated as the weakest in the last 30 years and I think we all knew that even before the series started given the tv ratings for that series.

Plus, its no coincidence that both LeBron and Davis had their healthiest most reliable stretch of basketball after getting 4 months off in the middle of the year. Sure, everyone had that, but we've seen in LeBrons Lakers tenure that his body is having trouble enduring the typical NBA endurance grind at year 17, 18, 19 with his style of play. 5 years ago it wouldn't have mattered for him, now it absolutely does.

[VanWest82]

When I look at the self-manufactured superteams and the ultra-weird circumstances like 2016 and 2020...he slips to 5.

to be clear, the circumstances of the 2020 playoffs due to the covid pandemic make you put lebron lower?

I can't speak for SeniorWalker but I thought Lebron's teams clearly benefitted from both the bubble and 2011 lockout (not to mention Steph's sprained MCL and the Draymond suspension that Lebron induced).

In 2012, his two biggest obstacles were Celtics and Spurs, two older teams that got run into the ground over the course of the season with that crazy condensed schedule.

In 2020, his two biggest obstacles were Clippers and Bucks, two teams whose seasons got completely derailed due to the pandemic/bubble. Also, as an older player with an NBA practice facility in his backyard Lebron/Lakers sure looked like they were better prepared and in better condition than many of their opponents who couldn't practice together due to lockdowns.

Maybe he would've won those years anyway, but the argument can be made that Lebron benefitted in all those title runs.

[The4thHorseman]

This is a weird thread but I guess I'm in the mood.

LeBron as a pure talent is every bit as good as advertised but I do believe his legacy is a tad overrated. Like Julius Erving said recently, LeBron "got to pick his teammates". I know a lot of people try to pretend that that doesn't matter in the larger scheme, but I've never EVER seen an alltime great have the level of freedom LeBron has had since 2010. You cannot convince me that a guy like Hakeem (I always use him cause he's my fav) or some other ATG wouldn't have won even more if he could call up two of his all NBA buddies and team up....and then do it again when they get old....and then do it again a few years later. On top of the other advancements in modern medicine he's had, (I'm not being cheeky, just saying) which tbf all of his peers do as well.

He in particular I go back and forth on often where I think he falls. His peak and overall talent tell me he's top 2 or 3 all time. When I look at the self-manufactured superteams and the ultra-weird circumstances like 2016 and 2020...he slips to 5. No lower than that for sure but I just have a very hard time actually putting him at #1. I think if you accept all of his resume without any context you could put him there, and to be fair to others I allow them to do that and don't argue. In my heart of hearts though, he's not #1 and that ship sailed. I think back in 2009 he had a very real shot at it but ten years later....ehh.

*ahem*

....this board often puts KG in the top ten and I chuckle every time I see it. Great jack of all trades player but not dominant in any facet except help defense and very underwhelming as a #1 guy. The common excuse is some transitive physical argument applied to Duncan, as if they are literal twins separated at birth. They are somewhat similar but definitely not the same and Duncan was a lot more reliable offensively which is why partly he was much more successful.

I see this said all the time. It's like people think LeBron has his own NBA draft and just chooses which players from other teams he wants on his team and nothing is done. It's a complete asinine notion that he "handpicks" his teammates. If free agents want to come to play for the franchise he's on,then how does that reflect badly on him?


Which 2 All-NBA "buddies" did he call up before re-signing with Cleveland and then before signing with LA??


The 2016 Cavs and 2020 Lakers were Superteams?? If that's the case, then there must be dozens of superteams over the years by your definition.

[jalengreen]

When I look at the self-manufactured superteams and the ultra-weird circumstances like 2016 and 2020...he slips to 5.

to be clear, the circumstances of the 2020 playoffs due to the covid pandemic make you put lebron lower?

Well, I wouldn't say that exactly for 2020. LeBron didn't manufacture covid in a Chinese lab as far as I know (just a joke guys, lay off me)

What I will say about 2020 is that it's abundantly clear most of the stars did not want to be there. Especially teams like the clippers and bucks, who had multiple players iirc say outright they didn't, among others. There was too much going on and basketball was not the most important thing on most people's minds. That and removing the common pressures of playoff basketball like traveling, home and away arenas....yeah. the finals opponent they ended up (Miami) with was rated as the weakest in the last 30 years and I think we all knew that even before the series started given the tv ratings for that series.

Plus, its no coincidence that both LeBron and Davis had their healthiest most reliable stretch of basketball after getting 4 months off in the middle of the year. Sure, everyone had that, but we've seen in LeBrons Lakers tenure that his body is having trouble enduring the typical NBA endurance grind at year 17, 18, 19 with his style of play. 5 years ago it wouldn't have mattered for him, now it absolutely does.

I'd understand more of the criticism if the Lakers weren't the one seed. But they were, so IMO they were disadvantaged because they completely lost their home court advantage which they would have had in every single series in that postseason run.

i'm not sure if you're bringing up the clippers/bucks thing as a "see? the lakers' competition didn't even want to be there!" but it was my understanding that the lakers also wanted to leave, lebron included. could be mistaken but i just remembered this

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/08/26/lakers-clippers-vote-to-cancel-rest-of-playoffs-every-other-team-votes-to-continue/

IIRC lebron was actually having his healthiest lakers season even prior to the season being suspended. like at the point of the season suspension in 2020, lebron had already gotten hurt in 2019 and 2021. so it already looks like an 'outlier' amidst his lakers tenure regardless

i really see nothing here that didn't affect every team other than the HCA factor that specifically disadvantaged teams like the lakers. at the end of the day it was just a controlled environment. "removing the common pressures of playoff basketball like traveling" but.. for everyone??? right?? it's not like everyone else had to travel lol

this is just my opinion of course, but it's hard for me personally to take the other criticisms seriously when the bubble argument seems profoundly weak yet is still being thrown in there.

i'd argue the most unequal consequences of the bubble both disadvantaged lebron & the lakers: (a) the loss of HCA for higher seeds, and (b) the shorter turnaround to the 2021 season which saw 3 of 4 2020 conference finals teams suffer injuries to star players that impacted their 2021 playoff hopes

[jalengreen]

When I look at the self-manufactured superteams and the ultra-weird circumstances like 2016 and 2020...he slips to 5.

to be clear, the circumstances of the 2020 playoffs due to the covid pandemic make you put lebron lower?

I can't speak for SeniorWalker but I thought Lebron's teams clearly benefitted from both the bubble and 2011 lockout (not to mention Steph's sprained MCL and the Draymond suspension that Lebron induced).

In 2012, his two biggest obstacles were Celtics and Spurs, two older teams that got run into the ground over the course of the season with that crazy condensed schedule.

In 2020, his two biggest obstacles were Clippers and Bucks, two teams whose seasons got completely derailed due to the pandemic/bubble. Also, as an older player with an NBA practice facility in his backyard Lebron/Lakers sure looked like they were better prepared and in better condition than many of their opponents who couldn't practice together due to lockdowns.

Maybe he would've won those years anyway, but the argument can be made that Lebron benefitted in all those title runs.

so basically the clippers & bucks choked and now we're blaming that on the bubble

paul george and kawhi leonard combined for *checks notes* 0 points in the 4th quarter of game 7 against the nuggets because of... the bubble. somehow i wonder if you'd have that same excuse if lebron was the one choking

[SeniorWalker]

to be clear, the circumstances of the 2020 playoffs due to the covid pandemic make you put lebron lower?

Well, I wouldn't say that exactly for 2020. LeBron didn't manufacture covid in a Chinese lab as far as I know (just a joke guys, lay off me)

What I will say about 2020 is that it's abundantly clear most of the stars did not want to be there. Especially teams like the clippers and bucks, who had multiple players iirc say outright they didn't, among others. There was too much going on and basketball was not the most important thing on most people's minds. That and removing the common pressures of playoff basketball like traveling, home and away arenas....yeah. the finals opponent they ended up (Miami) with was rated as the weakest in the last 30 years and I think we all knew that even before the series started given the tv ratings for that series.

Plus, its no coincidence that both LeBron and Davis had their healthiest most reliable stretch of basketball after getting 4 months off in the middle of the year. Sure, everyone had that, but we've seen in LeBrons Lakers tenure that his body is having trouble enduring the typical NBA endurance grind at year 17, 18, 19 with his style of play. 5 years ago it wouldn't have mattered for him, now it absolutely does.

I'd understand more of the criticism if the Lakers weren't the one seed. But they were, so IMO they were disadvantaged because they completely lost their home court advantage which they would have had in every single series in that postseason run.

i'm not sure if you're bringing up the clippers/bucks thing as a "see? the lakers' competition didn't even want to be there!" but it was my understanding that the lakers also wanted to leave, lebron included. could be mistaken but i just remembered this

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/08/26/lakers-clippers-vote-to-cancel-rest-of-playoffs-every-other-team-votes-to-continue/

IIRC lebron was actually having his healthiest lakers season even prior to the season being suspended. like at the point of the season suspension in 2020, lebron had already gotten hurt in 2019 and 2021. so it already looks like an 'outlier' amidst his lakers tenure regardless

i really see nothing here that didn't affect every team other than the HCA factor that specifically disadvantaged teams like the lakers. at the end of the day it was just a controlled environment. "removing the common pressures of playoff basketball like traveling" but.. for everyone??? right?? it's not like everyone else had to travel lol

this is just my opinion of course, but it's hard for me personally to take the other criticisms seriously when the bubble argument seems profoundly weak yet is still being thrown in there.

i'd argue the most unequal consequences of the bubble both disadvantaged lebron & the lakers: (a) the loss of HCA for higher seeds, and (b) the shorter turnaround to the 2021 season which saw 3 of 4 2020 conference finals teams suffer injuries to star players that impacted their 2021 playoff hopes

I think this is a to each his own point. In my book I was never going to look at that 2020 title the same no matter who won it and I said that before the bubble even started. I didnt want the NBA season to resume even though I love basketball, there were just bigger things happening. The entire ordeal felt like a shell of nba basketball with all the pressure sucked out of the room.

[DQuinn1575]

to be clear, the circumstances of the 2020 playoffs due to the covid pandemic make you put lebron lower?

Well, I wouldn't say that exactly for 2020. LeBron didn't manufacture covid in a Chinese lab as far as I know (just a joke guys, lay off me)

What I will say about 2020 is that it's abundantly clear most of the stars did not want to be there. Especially teams like the clippers and bucks, who had multiple players iirc say outright they didn't, among others. There was too much going on and basketball was not the most important thing on most people's minds. That and removing the common pressures of playoff basketball like traveling, home and away arenas....yeah. the finals opponent they ended up (Miami) with was rated as the weakest in the last 30 years and I think we all knew that even before the series started given the tv ratings for that series.

Plus, its no coincidence that both LeBron and Davis had their healthiest most reliable stretch of basketball after getting 4 months off in the middle of the year. Sure, everyone had that, but we've seen in LeBrons Lakers tenure that his body is having trouble enduring the typical NBA endurance grind at year 17, 18, 19 with his style of play. 5 years ago it wouldn't have mattered for him, now it absolutely does.

I'd understand more of the criticism if the Lakers weren't the one seed. But they were, so IMO they were disadvantaged because they completely lost their home court advantage which they would have had in every single series in that postseason run.

i'm not sure if you're bringing up the clippers/bucks thing as a "see? the lakers' competition didn't even want to be there!" but it was my understanding that the lakers also wanted to leave, lebron included. could be mistaken but i just remembered this

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/08/26/lakers-clippers-vote-to-cancel-rest-of-playoffs-every-other-team-votes-to-continue/

IIRC lebron was actually having his healthiest lakers season even prior to the season being suspended. like at the point of the season suspension in 2020, lebron had already gotten hurt in 2019 and 2021. so it already looks like an 'outlier' amidst his lakers tenure regardles
i really see nothing here that didn't affect every team other than the HCA factor that specifically disadvantaged teams like the lakers. at the end of the day it was just a controlled environment. "removing the common pressures of playoff basketball like traveling" but.. for everyone??? right?? it's not like everyone else had to travel lol

this is just my opinion of course, but it's hard for me personally to take the other criticisms seriously when the bubble argument seems profoundly weak yet is still being thrown in there.

i'd argue the most unequal consequences of the bubble both disadvantaged lebron & the lakers: (a) the loss of HCA for higher seeds, and (b) the shorter turnaround to the 2021 season which saw 3 of 4 2020 conference finals teams suffer injuries to star players that impacted their 2021 playoff hopes

The HCA means a team gets Game 7 on its home court. The 2020 Lakers were so much better than their opponents they didn't go to a Game 7 - so they were not disadvantaged at all by not having home court.

[falcolombardi]

Well, I wouldn't say that exactly for 2020. LeBron didn't manufacture covid in a Chinese lab as far as I know (just a joke guys, lay off me)

What I will say about 2020 is that it's abundantly clear most of the stars did not want to be there. Especially teams like the clippers and bucks, who had multiple players iirc say outright they didn't, among others. There was too much going on and basketball was not the most important thing on most people's minds. That and removing the common pressures of playoff basketball like traveling, home and away arenas....yeah. the finals opponent they ended up (Miami) with was rated as the weakest in the last 30 years and I think we all knew that even before the series started given the tv ratings for that series.

Plus, its no coincidence that both LeBron and Davis had their healthiest most reliable stretch of basketball after getting 4 months off in the middle of the year. Sure, everyone had that, but we've seen in LeBrons Lakers tenure that his body is having trouble enduring the typical NBA endurance grind at year 17, 18, 19 with his style of play. 5 years ago it wouldn't have mattered for him, now it absolutely does.

I'd understand more of the criticism if the Lakers weren't the one seed. But they were, so IMO they were disadvantaged because they completely lost their home court advantage which they would have had in every single series in that postseason run.

i'm not sure if you're bringing up the clippers/bucks thing as a "see? the lakers' competition didn't even want to be there!" but it was my understanding that the lakers also wanted to leave, lebron included. could be mistaken but i just remembered this

https://nba.nbcsports.com/2020/08/26/lakers-clippers-vote-to-cancel-rest-of-playoffs-every-other-team-votes-to-continue/

IIRC lebron was actually having his healthiest lakers season even prior to the season being suspended. like at the point of the season suspension in 2020, lebron had already gotten hurt in 2019 and 2021. so it already looks like an 'outlier' amidst his lakers tenure regardles
i really see nothing here that didn't affect every team other than the HCA factor that specifically disadvantaged teams like the lakers. at the end of the day it was just a controlled environment. "removing the common pressures of playoff basketball like traveling" but.. for everyone??? right?? it's not like everyone else had to travel lol

this is just my opinion of course, but it's hard for me personally to take the other criticisms seriously when the bubble argument seems profoundly weak yet is still being thrown in there.

i'd argue the most unequal consequences of the bubble both disadvantaged lebron & the lakers: (a) the loss of HCA for higher seeds, and (b) the shorter turnaround to the 2021 season which saw 3 of 4 2020 conference finals teams suffer injuries to star players that impacted their 2021 playoff hopes

The HCA means a team gets Game 7 on its home court. The 2020 Lakers were so much better than their opponents they didn't go to a Game 7 - so they were not disadvantaged at all by not having home court.

that they dominated so clearly they didnt even need hca (which they wouldnt get anyway if series went to 7)should prove how much better they were than their peers those playoffs

that they -supposedly-wanted to win more or focused more on winning among all the distractions compared to other contenders shouldnt be praised? we generally praise that in other circunstances instead of discounting winners because "their rivals were unfocused/distracted/whatever" the mental game is part of winning after all

if bucks and clippers didnt have the same focus or commitment as the lakers (assuming that was why they lost and not a run of the mill upset) how is that on the lakers fault?

[penbeast0]

He didn't say Bird was a great defender, he said he was a far batter defender than Dirk, Curry, Klay, Durant, Nash.
Other than Klay that probably holds up - maybe not far better than Durant, but I would go with better.

I would say Klay (by a lot) and Durant were clearly better defenders than Bird; Curry not as good as pre-back injury Bird, probably a bit better than post injury Bird, Dirk and Nash worse. I have Bird as a generally weak defender who Boston would try to hide.

I understand if you differ; heck, Bird even got some all Defense mentions early on which to me was like Kobe getting them late career. Defense is the hardest thing to judge, particularly before modern tracking numbers, and when a lot depends on eye test, it also depends on which games you saw and what you are looking for.

[falcolombardi]

When I look at the self-manufactured superteams and the ultra-weird circumstances like 2016 and 2020...he slips to 5.

to be clear, the circumstances of the 2020 playoffs due to the covid pandemic make you put lebron lower?

I can't speak for SeniorWalker but I thought Lebron's teams clearly benefitted from both the bubble and 2011 lockout (not to mention Steph's sprained MCL and the Draymond suspension that Lebron induced).

In 2012, his two biggest obstacles were Celtics and Spurs, two older teams that got run into the ground over the course of the season with that crazy condensed schedule.

In 2020, his two biggest obstacles were Clippers and Bucks, two teams whose seasons got completely derailed due to the pandemic/bubble. Also, as an older player with an NBA practice facility in his backyard Lebron/Lakers sure looked like they were better prepared and in better condition than many of their opponents who couldn't practice together due to lockdowns.

Maybe he would've won those years anyway, but the argument can be made that Lebron benefitted in all those title runs.

spurs were the hottest team in the league coming into their loss against okc, they were 8-0 in the playoffs and had won like another 10 games before that

heat had been stumbling with injuries to bosh throigh the playoffs instead, the notion that heat benefitted from the compressed schedule when out of the top teams they were the ones actually battling injuries seems made up after the fact to diminish the ring

2020 the lakers were the hottest team in the league before the suspensión of the league, they were actually on their way to maybe take the 1st sees of the bucks who has had just had (if my memory is right) a small injury to giannis at the end of the reg season

then when the bubble came lakers looks really bad in the pre bubble games dropping their regular season numbers a fair bit down, at the time people were speculating the lakers were out of shape and lebron would suffer at his age being out of rythim

if during the bubble or before that the lakers (and the heat?) were hyper focused/comitted while other teams (understandably) didnt have their minds 100% in basketball then that should be -praised- for the strong mentality shown there, if other teams didnt have the same focus
(and again, the only reason we apeculate they didnt is after the fact because they lost, nobody would question their mental focus if clippers or bucks won nor would give lebron the excuse if lakers lost)

then that is on them for not having the same mental focus/drive/commitment whatever you wanna call it as the lakers

[eminence]

I have Bird as a good defender early and at least decent until the back went. Curry/Klay/KD all decent to average defenders throughout their careers. Dirk bad to below average. Nash just bad.

[VanWest82]

then when the bubble came lakers looks really bad in the pre bubble games dropping their regular season numbers a fair bit down, at the time people were speculating the lakers were out of shape and lebron would suffer at his age being out of rythim

Lakers had the #1 seed completely wrapped up and sat various guys during those pre-playoffs bubble games. It was pretty clear at the time they were basically treating them like preseason. And even if you didn't think it at the time, it should be more than obvious with hindsight given they destroyed the West.

if during the bubble or before that the lakers (and the heat?) were hyper focused/comitted while other teams (understandably) didnt have their minds 100% in basketball then that should be -praised- for the strong mentality shown there, if other teams didnt have the same focus
(and again, the only reason we apeculate they didnt is after the fact because they lost, nobody would question their mental focus if clippers or bucks won nor would give lebron the excuse if lakers lost)

then that is on them for not having the same mental focus/drive/commitment whatever you wanna call it as the lakers

Lakers and Heat should get credit for being mentally tougher than other teams but the fact remains that the bubble situation was unusual and lots of guys suffered from mental illness which impacted their teams. Paul George was exhibit A.

But the big advantage was Lakers and Heat were able to continue practicing together whereas virtually all other teams couldn't due to lockdown restrictions. I just don't think it's a coincidence that the two teams that got accused of this coming into the bubble were the ones that made the Finals.

[VanWest82]

so basically the clippers & bucks choked and now we're blaming that on the bubble

Paul George choked due to problems with mental illness brought on by the bubble. This is well documented.

Bucks didn't just choke. They were a completely different team top to bottom in the bubble. They didn't look ready to play basketball after dominating the regular season up to that point. Surely you can see that something was going on there unless you're just completely biased.

paul george and kawhi leonard combined for *checks notes* 0 points in the 4th quarter of game 7 against the nuggets because of... the bubble. somehow i wonder if you'd have that same excuse if lebron was the one choking

This is fair. Paul George choked and Lebron and AD didn't. They were more mentally tough and so they deserve credit for that. But as I said to falcolombardi that doesn't change the fact that it was an unusual circumstance that seemed to alter the outcome of the playoffs.

Edit: I think the crux of SeniorWalker's argument is that Lebron's success 2011-present is at least a tiny bit tainted by the fact that he so regularly gamed the system to his advantage whether it was forming super teams, using his agency to leverage teams and lure players, spending millions on his body that other players couldn't, holding team practices at his home to get around lockdown restrictions, etc., etc.

I don't know if that makes him overrated. IMO Bron is properly rated. He's a top 2 player all time which is what the majority seems to think.

[DQuinn1575]

He didn't say Bird was a great defender, he said he was a far batter defender than Dirk, Curry, Klay, Durant, Nash.
Other than Klay that probably holds up - maybe not far better than Durant, but I would go with better.

I would say Klay (by a lot) and Durant were clearly better defenders than Bird; Curry not as good as pre-back injury Bird, probably a bit better than post injury Bird, Dirk and Nash worse. I have Bird as a generally weak defender who Boston would try to hide.

I understand if you differ; heck, Bird even got some all Defense mentions early on which to me was like Kobe getting them late career. Defense is the hardest thing to judge, particularly before modern tracking numbers, and when a lot depends on eye test, it also depends on which games you saw and what you are looking for.

He was a key starter playing by far the most minutes on a very good defensive team over a 7 year span. They averaged 4th in the league over the 7 years, and he was the only player to start the entire span. Bird played 21k minutes, Parish 15k, Maxwell and McHale around 14k, DJ about 8k - there's no Hakeem, Garnett, Draymond, etc. anchoring this.

We can argue opinions, but some good things were happening here on defense, and the only constant was Bird. And those things were not happening before he got there.

So I go with much stronger than generally weak.

[penbeast0]

Actually Parish and McHale were anchoring this, DJ was still excellent, Maxwell and Danny Ainge were ok if not great. That's a lot of good defenders around him. I do agree that the team before Bird was not playing hard on defense and that you could certainly attribute the refound work ethic and team effort to Bird. As I said, a lot of it is eye test in that era and therefore is in the eye of the beholder.

[Cavsfansince84]

I would say Klay (by a lot) and Durant were clearly better defenders than Bird; Curry not as good as pre-back injury Bird, probably a bit better than post injury Bird, Dirk and Nash worse. I have Bird as a generally weak defender who Boston would try to hide.

I understand if you differ; heck, Bird even got some all Defense mentions early on which to me was like Kobe getting them late career. Defense is the hardest thing to judge, particularly before modern tracking numbers, and when a lot depends on eye test, it also depends on which games you saw and what you are looking for.

I agree with much of that though the one thing you have to be willing to give credit to Bird for in his early years is effort on defense. You knew he was gonna be giving it everything he had in pretty much every game which in itself counts for a lot. Plus mixed with his bbiq. Which is why I lean towards respecting his defense.

[DCasey91]

So basically the whole criticism on Russell is that he didn't score well enough? That basically proves that he's not overrated at all...

Russell is overrated by definition being that he’s by far the worst offensive player not just scoring alone but offense in general by some distance on this list.

It’s suspect the more you pour into the numbers/players/era/depth etc etc.

Wallace still needed Billups, Rasheed etc. Gobert would still need X player.

For me Celtics were overloaded for that whole decade plus. It helps getting positionally ranked players from 1-5, the best depth, Hondo literally in the middle of it.

I don’t buy what Bill is selling but that’s my personal belief.

There’s zero markers for this being that far down the pecking order on a regular winning championship team so there’s zero basis to go off from.

All things being equal from players to coaches to gameplan I think a Wilt led team would kill a Russell led team.

You’d have to rewrite everything then and say well if that player was here today was sub average offensively in totality and his PER markers weren’t close but was streets ahead defensively we’d win multiple championships as the guy that’s not how it works.

I can’t really build a good case for Russell so I stopped ages ago. I’m betting the house there was an undercurrent that people here remiss.

What do you think about the points made in this vid?

Which vid?

[LukaTheGOAT]

Russell is overrated by definition being that he’s by far the worst offensive player not just scoring alone but offense in general by some distance on this list.

It’s suspect the more you pour into the numbers/players/era/depth etc etc.

Wallace still needed Billups, Rasheed etc. Gobert would still need X player.

For me Celtics were overloaded for that whole decade plus. It helps getting positionally ranked players from 1-5, the best depth, Hondo literally in the middle of it.

I don’t buy what Bill is selling but that’s my personal belief.

There’s zero markers for this being that far down the pecking order on a regular winning championship team so there’s zero basis to go off from.

All things being equal from players to coaches to gameplan I think a Wilt led team would kill a Russell led team.

You’d have to rewrite everything then and say well if that player was here today was sub average offensively in totality and his PER markers weren’t close but was streets ahead defensively we’d win multiple championships as the guy that’s not how it works.

I can’t really build a good case for Russell so I stopped ages ago. I’m betting the house there was an undercurrent that people here remiss.

What do you think about the points made in this vid?

Which vid?

Lol my bad, I forgot to post the link

Watch on YouTube

[DQuinn1575]

Actually Parish and McHale were anchoring this, DJ was still excellent, Maxwell and Danny Ainge were ok if not great. That's a lot of good defenders around him. I do agree that the team before Bird was not playing hard on defense and that you could certainly attribute the refound work ethic and team effort to Bird. As I said, a lot of it is eye test in that era and therefore is in the eye of the beholder.

None of those guys you mentioned were there the first year Bird was there when they had the 4th best defense in the league.
Parish was a good defender, but was never all-defense, had only 2 years over 2 blocks a game in BOS.
McHale played 20 mpg in 1981, then 28 in 82 & 83 - yes he helped, but he isn't playing more than 60% of the time until 1984.
DJ wasn't there until 1984
So in 1984, you have DJ, McHale playing lots of minutes, Parish, Ainge, and then Walton - they go 3rd and 5th in the league, and a weak defender could do okay then.
But in 1980 you have none of those guys, in 81 you get 20 mpg of McHale and Parish - and similar results.

[JN61]

LeBron without a doubt. Next probably Russell.