RealGM

Subtract Scoring & offensive rebounding.

A Combination of

- Court Vision
- Passing Vision
- Passing Zip
- Passing Accuracy.
- Finding the open man
- Running an offense
- Slowing and speeding up the pace.

I know you said minus scoring, but can we include scoring gravity in this and how the defense reacts to you when getting the ball or when you are a threat to potentially get it?

This doesn't make sense...... It'd be like asking who's a better defender minus contesting lol

Yeah, why not just ask who’s the better playmaker/floor general. Asking who the better offensive player is minus the scoring is like asking who makes a better hamburger minus the patty.

I'd add "ball control" (or "turnover economy", if you prefer that term) to the list of things we should be considering outside of scoring.

imo, it's the scoring that sets Lebron well apart from CP3. So without that, I lean toward Paul. I'm hard pressed to call one better than the other at finding and hitting the open man. Both are good at creating plays, too (though in somewhat different ways**).

**And in truth, it's hard to consider their play-making in exclusion of their scoring, because [especially in Lebron's case] it's their scoring threat that opens up the passing opportunities: sucking in the defense on penetration and finding the open man, for example.

Ultimately though, it's Chris Paul's superior ball control that makes me lean toward him in exclusion of their scoring. I don't think Lebron's tiny advantage in offensive rebounding is quite enough to overcome that.

Yeah, weird way to ask essentially "who is the better play-maker/floor general" because scoring gravity matters here. But if the question is more, "who can dominate a game more with a 0-point, 15-assist stat line", then I don't see how you can pick against CP3 here. As great of a play-maker/passer as Lebron is, you can't name me 2-3 better pick & roll guards or orchestrators of an offense than Chris Paul.

I can't see Lebron without his scoring be half the player that he is.
CP3 is much less reliant on it.

I think as written this would include offensive rebounding as well.

penbeast0 wrote:I think as written this would include offensive rebounding as well.

I think this is directed at me (I believe I'm the only one who mentioned offensive rebounding). If so....

I assumed so as well. What I was saying is that I do not thinking the offensive rebounding edge to Lebron [which is small] is not enough to overcome the ball-control edge to Paul [which is NOT small] (and calling playmaking in absense of scoring roughly a wash).

It wasn't really directed at anyone, just everyone (except maybe you) seemed to be focused only on playmaking where there are certainly other factors that affect offense as well other than scoring and passing. Offensive rebounding, pick setting (even for non-bigs, a la John Stockton), moving without the ball to force the defenses to react, etc.

If efficiency includes in scoring, basically asking Paul's playmaking gap or Lebron's rebounding gap is this. Paul's playmaking, sure.