top 10 all time scoring only?

[falcolombardi]

isolating scoring a bit from other parts of offense (rebounding, passing) who would be your top 10 all time adjusted for their own eras impact ?

consider the following criteria (weight each one however you prefer

-volume
-efficiency
(main ones)
-resiliency against strong defense
-pressuring the defense (think of how all thinghs being the same a rim slasher or off ball shooter scoring generates more gravity and then oportunities for teammates than isolation scoring

who is your top 10?

[WestGOAT]

My list (viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2150943&p=95670648#p95670648) does not weigh in resiliency or pressuring defence, but by simply looking at both cumulative relative points per 100 possessions and TS% over their careers for their seasons as volume-shooters I get the following players in the top 20 below. It's not perfect, but I think it's a good start. I imagine the likes of Malone and Harden to get penalized for their play-off drop offs, as this is regular-season only.

Another good resource is Elgee's list: https://backpicks.com/2019/10/09/the-most-valuable-scoring-seasons-in-nba-history-scoreval/

Code: Select all

                  Player  PP100Δ    TSΔ  Score
1   Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*   21.66  36.84  58.48
2           LeBron James   31.10  19.47  50.55
3      Shaquille O'Neal*   29.37  21.01  50.37
4        Michael Jordan*   40.29   6.39  46.70
5           Karl Malone*   27.51  16.50  44.02
6           Kevin Durant   20.53  20.51  41.04
7          Stephen Curry   14.63  20.23  34.88
8            Jerry West*   17.56  16.66  34.23
9          Dirk Nowitzki   14.68  18.38  33.06
10          Kobe Bryant*   27.17   5.88  33.05
11          James Harden   16.78  13.85  30.61
12       Adrian Dantley*   12.04  18.33  30.36
13      Charles Barkley*    9.17  17.97  27.12
14        Reggie Miller*    5.25  21.84  27.10
15        George Gervin*   19.10   7.50  26.61
16       David Robinson*   11.56  12.45  24.00
17      Oscar Robertson*    7.81  13.83  21.63
18           Dwyane Wade   16.78   3.18  19.97
19     Amar'e Stoudemire    6.31  13.61  19.90
20           Bob Pettit*   13.11   4.68  17.78

[Dutchball97]

Among big men Kareem, Wilt and Shaq are locks. I'm also confident in MJ, LeBron, KD and Curry. The last 3 spots are incredibly tough to pick between West, Oscar, Dr J, Bird, Barkley, Kobe and Dirk. At the moment I'd go for West, Bird and Barkley but the margins are close. Harden and David Robinson would be in the top 10 if only looking at the regular season but fall short in the play-offs. Jokic and Embiid could make it but I'd like to see them keep it up for a bit longer first.

[Colbinii]

Among big men Kareem, Wilt and Shaq are locks. I'm also confident in MJ, LeBron, KD and Curry. The last 3 spots are incredibly tough to pick between West, Oscar, Dr J, Bird, Barkley, Kobe and Dirk. At the moment I'd go for West, Bird and Barkley but the margins are close. Harden and David Robinson would be in the top 10 if only looking at the regular season but fall short in the play-offs. Jokic and Embiid could make it but I'd like to see them keep it up for a bit longer first.

I dont see Birds case as a scorer over Dirk.

[WestGOAT]

Among big men Kareem, Wilt and Shaq are locks. I'm also confident in MJ, LeBron, KD and Curry. The last 3 spots are incredibly tough to pick between West, Oscar, Dr J, Bird, Barkley, Kobe and Dirk. At the moment I'd go for West, Bird and Barkley but the margins are close. Harden and David Robinson would be in the top 10 if only looking at the regular season but fall short in the play-offs. Jokic and Embiid could make it but I'd like to see them keep it up for a bit longer first.

I find Larry Bird an interesting mention, do you think his play-offs performance makes up for his lack-luster regular-season scoring? Based on my list only his '85 - '88 regular seasons were pretty good, but his other seasons don't look impressive. I remember also looking at his playoff numbers adjusted for opponent defence and they actually seemed pretty bad sometimes. Just going by the numbers it was actually Kevin McHale that seemed to be a better scorer.

[LukaTheGOAT]

MJ
Kareem
Lebron
Shaq
Jerry West
Kevin Durant
Dirk

I think these would be my locks when leaning towards PS play.

[falcolombardi]

what about dantley? his efficiency + volume is all time great

wilt too for strictly scoring, before 67 he had huge volume (if overstated by pace) amd strong efficiency

[No-more-rings]

Not necessarily in order:

Jordan
Lebron
Shaq
Kareem
Kobe
Dirk
Curry
KD
West
Barkley

Bird’s scoring dips too much in the playoffs. Wilt was a super high volume guy, but it didn’t impact the offense as much as you’d think. Wade i think definitely deserves a mention, but i find it hard to include him given his lack of 3 point shot as far as guards are concerned. Harden is very close as well, though I don’t think his postseason scoring was quite as consistent as the others. I’m not sure who else is really in consideration here, perhaps Jokic, or Giannis get there at some point but i definitely have doubts.

[70sFan]

My list in tiers

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
LeBron James

Shaquille O'Neal
Kevin Durant
Jerry West

Stephen Curry
Dirk Nowitzki
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain

HM: Adrian Dantley, Charles Barkley, George Gervin

Feel bad for having Iceman outside of top 10. Would you pick him ahead of anyone in my top 10?

[Djoker]

Jordan
Kareem
Durant
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Curry
West
K. Malone

HM: Oscar, Dantley, Harden, Gervin, Bird, Barkley

[Colbinii]

My list in tiers

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
LeBron James

Shaquille O'Neal
Kevin Durant
Jerry West

Stephen Curry
Dirk Nowitzki
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain

HM: Adrian Dantley, Charles Barkley, George Gervin

Feel bad for having Iceman outside of top 10. Would you pick him ahead of anyone in my top 10?

Wilt

[Cavsfansince84]

Surprised to see no mentions of Oscar here. He would be in my top 10, more so since this is era adjusted. Oscar and West seem like locks to me and Pettit probably deserves consideration as well.

[HardenandWilt]

Among big men Kareem, Wilt and Shaq are locks. I'm also confident in MJ, LeBron, KD and Curry. The last 3 spots are incredibly tough to pick between West, Oscar, Dr J, Bird, Barkley, Kobe and Dirk. At the moment I'd go for West, Bird and Barkley but the margins are close. Harden and David Robinson would be in the top 10 if only looking at the regular season but fall short in the play-offs. Jokic and Embiid could make it but I'd like to see them keep it up for a bit longer first.

according to ben taylor, steph curry falls off more offensively in the playoffs than harden

harden broke ben taylors per 75 scoring metric and set the nba record for points per 100 possessions( a record that wont be touched for a while)... also followed that season up with 44 points per 100 possessions

[70sFan]

My list in tiers

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
LeBron James

Shaquille O'Neal
Kevin Durant
Jerry West

Stephen Curry
Dirk Nowitzki
Kobe Bryant
Wilt Chamberlain

HM: Adrian Dantley, Charles Barkley, George Gervin

Feel bad for having Iceman outside of top 10. Would you pick him ahead of anyone in my top 10?

Wilt

Maybe, although it's hard to leave Wilt off that list. Then you have Oscar and Harden as well, it's impossible to create a top 10 scoring list.

[Stalwart]

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Durant
4. Lebron
5. Shaq

[70sFan]

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Durant
4. Lebron
5. Shaq

What's Kobe or Shaq case over Kareem scoring wise?

[No-more-rings]

For those putting Karl Malone in there, I'm curious to how we're looking past his massive drop in scoring efficiency in the playoffs. His career ts% in the playoffs is 52.6, and even leaving out his past prime years looking at 86-2000, he averaged a 53.2%. I know ts% isn't everything, but when we start talking about the top 10 scorers ever I'd definitely expect better efficiency.

[Djoker]

For those putting Karl Malone in there, I'm curious to how we're looking past his massive drop in scoring efficiency in the playoffs. His career ts% in the playoffs is 52.6, and even leaving out his past prime years looking at 86-2000, he averaged a 53.2%. I know ts% isn't everything, but when we start talking about the top 10 scorers ever I'd definitely expect better efficiency.

That's a good point. I would put Oscar over K. Malone on second thought. Karl was very efficient scoring from 1988-1992 and then gradually lost athleticism and started shooting more midrange J's. Oscar though was just more efficient at similar volume. Way better rTS numbers.

My Top 10:

Jordan
Kareem
Durant
Wilt
Shaq
Kobe
Lebron
Curry
West
Oscar

HM: K. Malone, Dantley, Harden, Gervin, Bird, Barkley

[Stalwart]

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Durant
4. Lebron
5. Shaq

What's Kobe or Shaq case over Kareem scoring wise?

Im actually not sure about Shaq over Kareem. I was thinking about the level of sheer physical dominance Shaq reached at a certain point. There was a time when multiple 7 footers literally grabbing and yanking on him couldn't stop him from scoring. But on the other hand Kareem had the most unstoppable shot plus better FT shooting and was more versatile. I think its close.

I put Kobe over both Shaq and Kareem due mainly to their positions. Both Shaq and Kareem being centers have to be fed the ball in a certain position and have a relatively limited range to work in. Their scoring depends to a degree on their teammates and on the system. Whereas great wing players like Kobe & KD can score anywhere on the court no matter what anyone else does. They can take the ball at half court and wave everybody off and single handedly go get a bucket. They can play off ball and dominate.


Kareem, although more efficient and perhaps consistent he often slows down somewhere in the 30s where as Kobe is more capable of getting into the 40s and 50s on any given night. Plus I think Kobe held back his scoring for the majority of his career.

[70sFan]

Im actually not sure about Shaq over Kareem. I was thinking about the level of sheer physical dominance Shaq reached at a certain point. There was a time when multiple 7 footers literally grabbing and yanking on him couldn't stop him from scoring. But on the other hand Kareem had the most unstoppable shot plus better FT shooting and was more versatile. I think its close.

Fair enough, although I don't think subjective feelings about someone's style and physical dominance should influence such debate that much. Kareem scored more points on higher efficiency than Shaq with worse supporting casts on average.

I put Kobe over both Shaq and Kareem due mainly to their positions. Both Shaq and Kareem being centers have to be fed the ball in a certain position and have a relatively limited range to work in. Their scoring depends to a degree on their teammates and on the system. Whereas great wing players like Kobe & KD can score anywhere on the court no matter what anyone else does. They can take the ball at half court and wave everybody off and single handedly go get a bucket.

That's true, but at the same time both of them were more efficient and dominant in this limited range than Kobe. Bryant didn't have as much impact on opposing teams in any area on the court as Shaq/Kareem in the paint. You could live with Bryant on perimeter or inside, you had to do everything to stop Shaq/Kareem from getting in the paint.

They can play off ball and dominate.

I'd argue that both Shaq and Kareem were better off-ball players than Kobe, but that's a different topic for a separate thread.

Kareem, although more efficient and perhaps consistent he often slows down somewhere in the 30s where as Kobe is more capable of getting into the 40s and 50s on any given night.

I don't think it's true, especially once you look at playoffs.

Plus I think Kobe held back his scoring for the majority of his career.

This is something I definitely can't agree with. Kobe wasn't on Harden level of ball dominance and scoring load, but he's one of the highest volume scorers ever.