RealGM

SeniorWalker wrote:Luka absolutely does not have the highest ceiling of the 3, it's actually the lowest. Because he's the weakest athlete and has low potential to become an impactful defender. Giannis is already DPOY caliber and Jokic is at least larger than Luka. And I'd take either as an offensive anchor in the playoffs, at least right now.

Luka is much closer to a finished product than either guy, even at his early age, because his game is almost entirely skill based. Hes not likely to become more polished offensively outside of decision making and most of the problems with his teams so far are related to his sky high usage.

Its extremely cringey to say he has top 10 ATG potential too. Let's see him get a team out of the first round before we even put him in the current top 5 players discussion.....which he's not in, by the way

I'll use simple words so you can understand. They are all physically developed. Giannis has the best chance at being the best as already stated. Jokic has the worst chance BECAUSE he's bigger than Luka. The fact that he can only play center detracts from his impact, because teams NEED defensive impact from their centers because it is the most important position defensively.

Luka is somewhat similar to Jokic in that he's less athletic and more skilled than most superstars, but he's also less developed in terms of his physical regimen. Obviously, Luka has more to work on in terms of his conditioning than Jokic does. And Luka plays a position that is less important defensively. Thus, he has a higher ceiling. If you have any further questions I suggest you take up a different sport such as baseball which is easier to understand.

I worry that Jokic will be stuck on a poor team the way that KG was on the Wolves. Nuggets have really hamstrung themselves with the MPJ and Murray contracts, neither of whom looked like they deserved that kind of money even when they were healthy. And now both are out with pretty serious injuries and unclear whether they’ll ever get back to the players that they were, let alone meaningfully improving to the level that their contracts suggest.

The safe answer is Giannis.

All three are great players right now, and for those who didn't notice it is 2021 and Jokic is very good defender already, so who of them has best chance to be player of the decade depends on team success.
Giannis is in the best position with the ring he won. On the other side his most important teammates are 30 yo Middleton, 31 yo Holiday and 33 yo Lopez. He is in the best position right now but his success depends on Bucks ability to build new championship team around him.
Jokic's most important teammates are 24 yo Murray, 23 yo MPJ and 26 yo Gordon. Nuggets success depends on their health. If healthy they can be dynasty.
Luka is in the worst position right now with the team he has and Dallas payroll it will be hard to build championship team around him.

we are talking a lot about team success but to give this a different angle

if the question was "which player will be considered (by you or by common consensus) the best of the 3 (and the decade) when is all said and done" would your answer change?

kendogg wrote:

SeniorWalker wrote:Luka absolutely does not have the highest ceiling of the 3, it's actually the lowest. Because he's the weakest athlete and has low potential to become an impactful defender. Giannis is already DPOY caliber and Jokic is at least larger than Luka. And I'd take either as an offensive anchor in the playoffs, at least right now.

Luka is much closer to a finished product than either guy, even at his early age, because his game is almost entirely skill based. Hes not likely to become more polished offensively outside of decision making and most of the problems with his teams so far are related to his sky high usage.

Its extremely cringey to say he has top 10 ATG potential too. Let's see him get a team out of the first round before we even put him in the current top 5 players discussion.....which he's not in, by the way

I'll use simple words so you can understand. They are all physically developed. Giannis has the best chance at being the best as already stated. Jokic has the worst chance BECAUSE he's bigger than Luka. The fact that he can only play center detracts from his impact, because teams NEED defensive impact from their centers because it is the most important position defensively.

Luka is somewhat similar to Jokic in that he's less athletic and more skilled than most superstars, but he's also less developed in terms of his physical regimen. Obviously, Luka has more to work on in terms of his conditioning than Jokic does. And Luka plays a position that is less important defensively. Thus, he has a higher ceiling. If you have any further questions I suggest you take up a different sport such as baseball which is easier to understand.

I see. So that's why most ATG lists are heavily populated with typical big positions?

"They're all physically developed". I'm sorry, what do you mean here? Like, they're all adult human beings past their growth spurts? Because Giannis started playing basketball much later in life, and only recently has seen greater strides in the purely skill aspects of his game. Even today, he's not a finished product. Also, he grew two inches after he came into the NBA. Everything with him is being done on the fly.


This is not what is happening with Luka. He being fat and lazy in the off-season affects his play, but not to the degree that it would completely change the nature of his game, or develop facets that he had no prior potential for. Luka will never be much more than he is now, he does not have the talent for it.

Jokic is in a similar boat athletically, but the difference is he is already a far superior player to Luka. He is better is basically every way offensively, most particularly in his playmaking and passing (his intuition, court awareness and timing are things that can't be taught) and because he is 7ft and has good instincts is still a positive defender.


....meanwhile you came in this thread trying to treat me like a child, resting your entire argument on Luka missing his summer pilates class, that being the difference between him and players who just do a lot more on the court and don't need to take a million shots and still have superior efficiency and effectiveness at a higher level of production.

I'll use childish words so you can better understand: getcho fanboy salty-teared rants outta here boiiiiii.

Lol sorry, the last one I couldn't resist.

SeniorWalker wrote:I see. So that's why most ATG lists are heavily populated with typical big positions?

"They're all physically developed". I'm sorry, what do you mean here? Like, they're all adult human beings past their growth spurts? Because Giannis started playing basketball much later in life, and only recently has seen greater strides in the purely skill aspects of his game. Even today, he's not a finished product. Also, he grew two inches after he came into the NBA. Everything with him is being done on the fly.


This is not what is happening with Luka. He being fat and lazy in the off-season affects his play, but not to the degree that it would completely change the nature of his game, or develop facets that he had no prior potential for. Luka will never be much more than he is now, he does not have the talent for it.

Jokic is in a similar boat athletically, but the difference is he is already a far superior player to Luka. He is better is basically every way offensively, most particularly in his playmaking and passing (his intuition, court awareness and timing are things that can't be taught) and because he is 7ft and has good instincts is still a positive defender.


....meanwhile you came in this thread trying to treat me like a child, resting your entire argument on Luka missing his summer pilates class, that being the difference between him and players who just do a lot more on the court and don't need to take a million shots and still have superior efficiency and effectiveness at a higher level of production.

I'll use childish words so you can better understand: getcho fanboy salty-teared rants outta here boiiiiii.

Lol sorry, the last one I couldn't resist.

ATG lists are filled with centers because those guys are all great 2-way players who are ATG defenders. There isn't a single center in the top 100 all time who's even close to being as bad of a defender as Jokic.

They are all physically developed as in they are 26-27 and aren't going to suddenly have another growth spurt. They have played in the league long enough to have settled into their game and any improvements from here would only be in skill development in the offseason, not in learning how to make the most of what they already have.

If Jokic is such a good defender, then why are the Nuggets a middle of the road defensive team with mostly great defensive players around him? Meanwhile, fat Luka and the Mavs are the #5 best defense in the league. And fat Luka's Mavs also have a better overall record than Jokic's Nugs this season. Porzingis is actually a better defender than Jokic and that's kinda sad.

Can you name 3 starting centers who are worse defensively than Jokic? Spoiler, you can't, because there aren't. His DBPM stats only tell a small fraction of the story on defense. It's a very misleading stat and I don't think most people here have a clue what it means. I think the only center you can make a case that is worse than Jokic on defense is KAT and that' because KAT is a pretty stupid player and just makes way too many mental mistakes.

EVERY SINGLE good defense either has a great rim protector to defend the paint, or plays 5 switchable guys to better defend the perimeter. The Nuggets can't do either of those, and will NEVER be a great defensive team with Jokic.

Also Luka is every bit as good of a playmaker as Jokic. Luka has a great handle and extremely good passing accuracy. He has more assists and a better assist rate than Jokic, despite playing with chumps offensively. Yes Jokic's 2 best teammates are out this year, but last years healthy Nugs are FAR more talented than the Mavs. Murray and MPJ are better than any of Luka's teammates. You are deluding yourself thinking Jokic is the best passer in the league. Standing in the low/high post and hitting cutters is far easier to do than pass off the dribble in traffic.

Also Luka is one of the few players who's effectiveness has actually gone UP in the playoffs where the competition is more fierce and teams can gameplan against you better. Jokic's percentages drop in the playoffs (by a small bit only, but still a drop is a drop). Luka was in the MVP talks in his 2nd year in the league. He hasn't hit his prime yet, where as Jokic and Giannis have.

And coming in out of shape in 1 season, where he played in the olympics in the offseason is not a crime nor is it an indication he's a lazy person. He admitted he shouldn't have taken a month off and I doubt he'll do it again. If the Mavs find a way to acquire talent or Luka leaves for a better team, Luka could have a huge surge in efficiency on his production. Currently teams can focus him with impunity because his teammates couldn't iso score to save their lives. He has to jack so many 3's because he's doubled or tripled as soon as he takes one step towards the basket. Jokic's one advantage over Luka is that he can rely on his post game, where it is harder to stop a score with extra defenders without fouling. If Porzingis wasn't an absolute trashcan of a post player this wouldn't be a problem for Luka.

I'll stop treating you like a child when you actually make a single good argument. K?

Really depends on how Giannis ages once the athleticism starts to fade. Can he evolve and make up for physical decline the way Lebron, for example, did? That'll really be key I think. Otherwise, I think Jokic will age better. Luka right now looks like a complete uncertainty, but at just 22 you obviously can't count him out. And who knows, maybe there's another Curry-like late bloomer out there that we aren't expecting.

fjd0913 wrote:Really depends on how Giannis ages once the athleticism starts to fade. Can he evolve and make up for physical decline the way Lebron, for example, did? That'll really be key I think. Otherwise, I think Jokic will age better. Luka right now looks like a complete uncertainty, but at just 22 you obviously can't count him out. And who knows, maybe there's another Curry-like late bloomer out there that we aren't expecting.

Has LeBron faded athletically? Maybe he's lost a fraction off his first step but that's more his current weight versus when he entered the league. The laws of physics say that when your mass is 50lbs heavier, your momentum given the same force will be lower. Giannis can get away with less weight because of his superior length.

Most athletes as they age through their 30's lose more off stamina and durability than raw athleticism. Late 30's early 40's, maybe its a bit bigger factor. But Giannis is 27 and will be 35 at the end of the decade, so he will not dip into his late 30's. Giannis also has never played super heavy minutes in the regular season. The team goal is clearly to keep him as fresh as possible for the playoffs. Jokic hasn't played heavy minutes either, but that's more out of necessity than preference, as he hasn't had the stamina to play heavy minutes. Even in the playoffs he is sitting more than you'd expect for a superstar. Also, Giannis has the size to be a factor even if he does lose a step. It's still more steps than Jokic will ever have.

Also I wouldn't say Luka is a late bloomer. His 2nd season was one of the best sophomore campaigns in league history. His counting stats could hardly be higher considering his usage. Where he has room to grow is conditioning and defense, but also in efficiency, if and when he gets some better teammates around him. With better true shooting and lower turnovers, his numbers would be better even if his raw counting stats are not. It's not all on his teammates, but certainly that would help take the pressure off him and give him more room to work. But he does still have more room to grow than Giannis and Jokic, who I think most believe have hit their prime.

Luka is amazing as in nba as in international competition. Look at olympics game. Luka is the player of the 2020's for me

Look at and read the topic about Olympics game :

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=335&t=2107265&p=93101039#p93101039

kendogg wrote:ATG lists are filled with centers because those guys are all great 2-way players who are ATG defenders. There isn't a single center in the top 100 all time who's even close to being as bad of a defender as Jokic.

I strongly disagree, Jokic isn't as bad as you paint him out to be. Moses Malone is a top 20 candidate and I'd say he's comparable to 2022 version of Jokic at his best (and he had worse defensive seasons than Jokic in his prime as well). I'd say Bob Lanier was comparable, maybe a bit better but not by much.

kendogg wrote:

SeniorWalker wrote:I see. So that's why most ATG lists are heavily populated with typical big positions?

"They're all physically developed". I'm sorry, what do you mean here? Like, they're all adult human beings past their growth spurts? Because Giannis started playing basketball much later in life, and only recently has seen greater strides in the purely skill aspects of his game. Even today, he's not a finished product. Also, he grew two inches after he came into the NBA. Everything with him is being done on the fly.


This is not what is happening with Luka. He being fat and lazy in the off-season affects his play, but not to the degree that it would completely change the nature of his game, or develop facets that he had no prior potential for. Luka will never be much more than he is now, he does not have the talent for it.

Jokic is in a similar boat athletically, but the difference is he is already a far superior player to Luka. He is better is basically every way offensively, most particularly in his playmaking and passing (his intuition, court awareness and timing are things that can't be taught) and because he is 7ft and has good instincts is still a positive defender.


....meanwhile you came in this thread trying to treat me like a child, resting your entire argument on Luka missing his summer pilates class, that being the difference between him and players who just do a lot more on the court and don't need to take a million shots and still have superior efficiency and effectiveness at a higher level of production.

I'll use childish words so you can better understand: getcho fanboy salty-teared rants outta here boiiiiii.

Lol sorry, the last one I couldn't resist.

ATG lists are filled with centers because those guys are all great 2-way players who are ATG defenders. There isn't a single center in the top 100 all time who's even close to being as bad of a defender as Jokic.

They are all physically developed as in they are 26-27 and aren't going to suddenly have another growth spurt. They have played in the league long enough to have settled into their game and any improvements from here would only be in skill development in the offseason, not in learning how to make the most of what they already have.

If Jokic is such a good defender, then why are the Nuggets a middle of the road defensive team with mostly great defensive players around him? Meanwhile, fat Luka and the Mavs are the #5 best defense in the league. And fat Luka's Mavs also have a better overall record than Jokic's Nugs this season. Porzingis is actually a better defender than Jokic and that's kinda sad.

Can you name 3 starting centers who are worse defensively than Jokic? Spoiler, you can't, because there aren't. His DBPM stats only tell a small fraction of the story on defense. It's a very misleading stat and I don't think most people here have a clue what it means. I think the only center you can make a case that is worse than Jokic on defense is KAT and that' because KAT is a pretty stupid player and just makes way too many mental mistakes.

EVERY SINGLE good defense either has a great rim protector to defend the paint, or plays 5 switchable guys to better defend the perimeter. The Nuggets can't do either of those, and will NEVER be a great defensive team with Jokic.

Also Luka is every bit as good of a playmaker as Jokic. Luka has a great handle and extremely good passing accuracy. He has more assists and a better assist rate than Jokic, despite playing with chumps offensively. Yes Jokic's 2 best teammates are out this year, but last years healthy Nugs are FAR more talented than the Mavs. Murray and MPJ are better than any of Luka's teammates. You are deluding yourself thinking Jokic is the best passer in the league. Standing in the low/high post and hitting cutters is far easier to do than pass off the dribble in traffic.

Also Luka is one of the few players who's effectiveness has actually gone UP in the playoffs where the competition is more fierce and teams can gameplan against you better. Jokic's percentages drop in the playoffs (by a small bit only, but still a drop is a drop). Luka was in the MVP talks in his 2nd year in the league. He hasn't hit his prime yet, where as Jokic and Giannis have.

And coming in out of shape in 1 season, where he played in the olympics in the offseason is not a crime nor is it an indication he's a lazy person. He admitted he shouldn't have taken a month off and I doubt he'll do it again. If the Mavs find a way to acquire talent or Luka leaves for a better team, Luka could have a huge surge in efficiency on his production. Currently teams can focus him with impunity because his teammates couldn't iso score to save their lives. He has to jack so many 3's because he's doubled or tripled as soon as he takes one step towards the basket. Jokic's one advantage over Luka is that he can rely on his post game, where it is harder to stop a score with extra defenders without fouling. If Porzingis wasn't an absolute trashcan of a post player this wouldn't be a problem for Luka.

I'll stop treating you like a child when you actually make a single good argument. K?

This is clear F. You have to do your homework again. If you spent half the time you spent on writing this, on really finding out anything about Jokic's play, you would be so embarrassed that you would delete your post.

So let's start here:

"If Jokic is such a good defender, then why are the Nuggets a middle of the road defensive team"

Nuggets are 13th in defensive rating in NBA. Teams on 11th and 12th spot are also ones with terrible defensive centers Utah and 76ers (you know Gobert and Embiid)
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1
Jokic is 2nd in def rating of all rotation Nuggets players
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612743&CF=MIN*GE*15:GP*GE*10
Should I say Luka is not 2nd on Mavs
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612742&CF=GP*GE*10:MIN*GE*15

Next

"with mostly great defensive players around him"

This is even worst than the first one. Name me one good defensive player on Nuggets right now beside Gordon, Jokic and Campazzo? No one. Right

This was also great

"Can you name 3 starting centers who are worse defensively than Jokic? Spoiler, you can't, because there aren't. His DBPM stats only tell a small fraction of the story on defense. It's a very misleading stat and I don't think most people here have a clue what it means. I think the only center you can make a case that is worse than Jokic on defense is KAT and that' because KAT is a pretty stupid player and just makes way too many mental mistakes."

Ok you don't like DBPM. Find me one defensive stat that supports your opinion.
Defensive Raptor?
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/
Defensive LeBron?
https://www.bball-index.com/2021-22-lebron-data/
Find me one stat that supports your opinion. Your eye test? Visit oculist.

Just one more thing

"EVERY SINGLE good defense either has a great rim protector to defend the paint, or plays 5 switchable guys to better defend the perimeter. The Nuggets can't do either of those, and will NEVER be a great defensive team with Jokic."

Well they had top 5 defensive rating at the start of the season before Jokic's injury
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateTo=11%2F20%2F2021
Jokic missed next 4 games due to injury so Nuggets had THE WORST defrtg in the league without him in the next 4 games
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateTo=11%2F30%2F2021&DateFrom=11%2F20%2F2021

I could go like this on and on. But I won't. I'll offer help
https://basketnews.com/news-163817-from-horrible-to-elite-nikola-jokics-road-to-defensive-heights.html
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/fighting-the-narrative-nikola-jokic-is-not-a-bad-defender/1hsm3nijgbgnw1lr8c22k38clw
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2021/12/nba-nikola-jokic-defense-stats-nuggets-improvement
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/11/15/22783597/nikola-jokic-mvp-repeat-contender
Read and react
BTW when you said "Standing in the low/high post and hitting cutters is far easier to do than pass off the dribble in traffic." implying that it is the only way Jokic passes I really had to laugh...

kendogg wrote:The laws of physics say that when your mass is 50lbs heavier, your momentum given the same force will be lower.

I just saw this - the increase of mass lowers your acceleration given the same force, not momentum. The momentum is always bigger the bigger mass is

BelgradeNugget wrote:

kendogg wrote:

SeniorWalker wrote:I see. So that's why most ATG lists are heavily populated with typical big positions?

"They're all physically developed". I'm sorry, what do you mean here? Like, they're all adult human beings past their growth spurts? Because Giannis started playing basketball much later in life, and only recently has seen greater strides in the purely skill aspects of his game. Even today, he's not a finished product. Also, he grew two inches after he came into the NBA. Everything with him is being done on the fly.


This is not what is happening with Luka. He being fat and lazy in the off-season affects his play, but not to the degree that it would completely change the nature of his game, or develop facets that he had no prior potential for. Luka will never be much more than he is now, he does not have the talent for it.

Jokic is in a similar boat athletically, but the difference is he is already a far superior player to Luka. He is better is basically every way offensively, most particularly in his playmaking and passing (his intuition, court awareness and timing are things that can't be taught) and because he is 7ft and has good instincts is still a positive defender.


....meanwhile you came in this thread trying to treat me like a child, resting your entire argument on Luka missing his summer pilates class, that being the difference between him and players who just do a lot more on the court and don't need to take a million shots and still have superior efficiency and effectiveness at a higher level of production.

I'll use childish words so you can better understand: getcho fanboy salty-teared rants outta here boiiiiii.

Lol sorry, the last one I couldn't resist.

ATG lists are filled with centers because those guys are all great 2-way players who are ATG defenders. There isn't a single center in the top 100 all time who's even close to being as bad of a defender as Jokic.

They are all physically developed as in they are 26-27 and aren't going to suddenly have another growth spurt. They have played in the league long enough to have settled into their game and any improvements from here would only be in skill development in the offseason, not in learning how to make the most of what they already have.

If Jokic is such a good defender, then why are the Nuggets a middle of the road defensive team with mostly great defensive players around him? Meanwhile, fat Luka and the Mavs are the #5 best defense in the league. And fat Luka's Mavs also have a better overall record than Jokic's Nugs this season. Porzingis is actually a better defender than Jokic and that's kinda sad.

Can you name 3 starting centers who are worse defensively than Jokic? Spoiler, you can't, because there aren't. His DBPM stats only tell a small fraction of the story on defense. It's a very misleading stat and I don't think most people here have a clue what it means. I think the only center you can make a case that is worse than Jokic on defense is KAT and that' because KAT is a pretty stupid player and just makes way too many mental mistakes.

EVERY SINGLE good defense either has a great rim protector to defend the paint, or plays 5 switchable guys to better defend the perimeter. The Nuggets can't do either of those, and will NEVER be a great defensive team with Jokic.

Also Luka is every bit as good of a playmaker as Jokic. Luka has a great handle and extremely good passing accuracy. He has more assists and a better assist rate than Jokic, despite playing with chumps offensively. Yes Jokic's 2 best teammates are out this year, but last years healthy Nugs are FAR more talented than the Mavs. Murray and MPJ are better than any of Luka's teammates. You are deluding yourself thinking Jokic is the best passer in the league. Standing in the low/high post and hitting cutters is far easier to do than pass off the dribble in traffic.

Also Luka is one of the few players who's effectiveness has actually gone UP in the playoffs where the competition is more fierce and teams can gameplan against you better. Jokic's percentages drop in the playoffs (by a small bit only, but still a drop is a drop). Luka was in the MVP talks in his 2nd year in the league. He hasn't hit his prime yet, where as Jokic and Giannis have.

And coming in out of shape in 1 season, where he played in the olympics in the offseason is not a crime nor is it an indication he's a lazy person. He admitted he shouldn't have taken a month off and I doubt he'll do it again. If the Mavs find a way to acquire talent or Luka leaves for a better team, Luka could have a huge surge in efficiency on his production. Currently teams can focus him with impunity because his teammates couldn't iso score to save their lives. He has to jack so many 3's because he's doubled or tripled as soon as he takes one step towards the basket. Jokic's one advantage over Luka is that he can rely on his post game, where it is harder to stop a score with extra defenders without fouling. If Porzingis wasn't an absolute trashcan of a post player this wouldn't be a problem for Luka.

I'll stop treating you like a child when you actually make a single good argument. K?

This is clear F. You have to do your homework again. If you spent half the time you spent on writing this, on really finding out anything about Jokic's play, you would be so embarrassed that you would delete your post.

So let's start here:

"If Jokic is such a good defender, then why are the Nuggets a middle of the road defensive team"

Nuggets are 13th in defensive rating in NBA. Teams on 11th and 12th spot are also ones with terrible defensive centers Utah and 76ers (you know Gobert and Embiid)
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1
Jokic is 2nd in def rating of all rotation Nuggets players
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612743&CF=MIN*GE*15:GP*GE*10
Should I say Luka is not 2nd on Mavs
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612742&CF=GP*GE*10:MIN*GE*15

Next

"with mostly great defensive players around him"

This is even worst than the first one. Name me one good defensive player on Nuggets right now beside Gordon, Jokic and Campazzo? No one. Right

This was also great

"Can you name 3 starting centers who are worse defensively than Jokic? Spoiler, you can't, because there aren't. His DBPM stats only tell a small fraction of the story on defense. It's a very misleading stat and I don't think most people here have a clue what it means. I think the only center you can make a case that is worse than Jokic on defense is KAT and that' because KAT is a pretty stupid player and just makes way too many mental mistakes."

Ok you don't like DBPM. Find me one defensive stat that supports your opinion.
Defensive Raptor?
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/
Defensive LeBron?
https://www.bball-index.com/2021-22-lebron-data/
Find me one stat that supports your opinion. Your eye test? Visit oculist.

Just one more thing

"EVERY SINGLE good defense either has a great rim protector to defend the paint, or plays 5 switchable guys to better defend the perimeter. The Nuggets can't do either of those, and will NEVER be a great defensive team with Jokic."

Well they had top 5 defensive rating at the start of the season before Jokic's injury
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateTo=11%2F20%2F2021
Jokic missed next 4 games due to injury so Nuggets had THE WORST defrtg in the league without him in the next 4 games
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/advanced/?sort=DEF_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&DateTo=11%2F30%2F2021&DateFrom=11%2F20%2F2021

I could go like this on and on. But I won't. I'll offer help
https://basketnews.com/news-163817-from-horrible-to-elite-nikola-jokics-road-to-defensive-heights.html
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/fighting-the-narrative-nikola-jokic-is-not-a-bad-defender/1hsm3nijgbgnw1lr8c22k38clw
https://ftw.usatoday.com/2021/12/nba-nikola-jokic-defense-stats-nuggets-improvement
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/11/15/22783597/nikola-jokic-mvp-repeat-contender
Read and react
BTW when you said "Standing in the low/high post and hitting cutters is far easier to do than pass off the dribble in traffic." implying that it is the only way Jokic passes I really had to laugh...

Excellent post, Man!!

Whenever someone imperiously says "I know just from the eye test: there are no metrics", I know they're full of sh*t and don't know what they're talking about and haven't done any research, whatsoever.

It's truly lazy and entirely reductive. What they're saying is: "I just believe based on highlights and a few games I've seen that Player X MUST be poor defensively, because I said so. Period. I go on reputation alone."

There over a dozen defensive metrics out there. Jokic comes out looking at good to great this year (7-10 on a 1-10 scale) in literally all of them.

70sFan wrote:

kendogg wrote:The laws of physics say that when your mass is 50lbs heavier, your momentum given the same force will be lower.

I just saw this - the increase of mass lowers your acceleration given the same force, not momentum. The momentum is always bigger the bigger mass is

ah, if i remembered right, momentum is a product of mass and velocity.

People are exaggerating this athletic decline thing. Also with Giannis it's his frame that is more physically dominant, rather than him having explosive athleticism like Blake Griffin or Amar'e.

For a discussion like this it really isn't about the players skill per se. All 3 guys are capable of winning championships as the centerpiece of the franchise, so really it's a matter of which organization is able to put the right pieces around each of these guys and help them win.

This is easily Doncic. Many may have not realize that but Giannis only one year young than AD.

feyki wrote:This is easily Doncic. Many may have not realize that but Giannis only one year young than AD.

If you look at past decades though you’ll see Doncic would be young to be player of the decade for the 20s.

‘60s - Russell, born 1934, or Wilt, 1936
‘70s - Kareem, 1947
‘80s - Bird, 1956, or Magic, 1959
‘90s - Jordan, 1963
‘00s - Duncan/Garnett 1976
‘10s - LeBron, 1984

Giannis, 1994
Jokic, 1995
Doncic, 1999

Only Magic has been as young as Doncic was relative to his decade as Doncic.

Doesn’t mean he can’t do it, but he’d be a particularly young POD matching only Magic, and in that comparison it has to be noted what a ridiculous jumpstart Magic had. By this point in Magic’s career, he already had 2 Finals MVPs and we know in retrospect was in the process of taking further massive leaps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

More likely would be Doncic because of his age and improvements he can still make. He almost is already up there with Giannis and Jokic, who both will be 34 at the end of this decade.

If he really does make these improvements is up to him really. Otherwise this will probably go to Giannis, unless Jokic gets a trade to another franchise.

Texas Chuck wrote:
Luka is the wrong answer for this but not because his current skill means there is nowhere to go from here. There is a ton of really obvious stuff he can tighten up. Make 80% of his FT's. Make 35% of his 3's. Cut down on some of the ridiculous turnovers. Cut out those possessions where he aimlessly dribbles and then takes a bad stepback. He can do a ton of work on his body.

So if he DOES clean up this stuff, which seems reasonable given his age and smarts, is Luka STILL the wrong answer?

BmanInBigD wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:
Luka is the wrong answer for this but not because his current skill means there is nowhere to go from here. There is a ton of really obvious stuff he can tighten up. Make 80% of his FT's. Make 35% of his 3's. Cut down on some of the ridiculous turnovers. Cut out those possessions where he aimlessly dribbles and then takes a bad stepback. He can do a ton of work on his body.

So if he DOES clean up this stuff, which seems reasonable given his age and smarts, is Luka STILL the wrong answer?

I think so. But not as a poor reflection on him. Those other guys have a headstart each going 3 for3 on mvp level seasons to start the decade and neither is old enough to expect major decline until maybe the very end of the decade.

Luka has a lot of ground to make up.

Sent from my LGMP450 using RealGM mobile app