RealGM

Better Player?

I'm taking the mvp of the league over Morant.

Athletically or as a player?

This comparison isn’t fair to Rose. Morant is a bonafide top ten player in the league today. Rose was probably a stretch of an all-star pick.

ceiling raiser wrote:Athletically or as a player?

This comparison isn’t fair to Rose. Morant is a bonafide top ten player in the league today. Rose was probably a stretch of an all-star pick.

It says 2011 Rose. You don't think Rose was an all-star level guy at least in 2011?

I think Morant is better offensively, while Rose is leaps ahead as a defender.

LukaTheGOAT wrote:I think Morant is better offensively, while Rose is leaps ahead as a defender.

Rose has never been leaps ahead of anyone as a defender other than like maybe at his best compared to Trae or Forbes.

I'd take Rose pending playoffs. If Morant has anywhere of a decent playoffs I'd take him. He'll most likely be playing tougher competition anyway.

ceiling raiser wrote:Athletically or as a player?

This comparison isn’t fair to Rose. Morant is a bonafide top ten player in the league today. Rose was probably a stretch of an all-star pick.

Somewhat off topic - out of curiosity, what's your justification for Rose being a stretch of an all-star pick in 2011? Assuming this means that you'd take everyone who played in the ASG that year over Rose, who else would you consider arguable?

AussieBuck wrote:

LukaTheGOAT wrote:I think Morant is better offensively, while Rose is leaps ahead as a defender.

Rose has never been leaps ahead of anyone as a defender other than like maybe at his best compared to Trae or Forbes.

Ja Morant isn't that much of a better defender than Trae.

I think Rose played in a harder situation to put up offensive stats with the Bulls being a defense first weak spacing team by today's standards (average by 2011), Rose scored their most 3s. The Grizzlies have already scored more 3s than the Bulls.

Rose was a very good defender in 2011-he improved a lot over the beginning of his career
This one is close, but I will take Rose

ceiling raiser wrote:Athletically or as a player?

This comparison isn’t fair to Rose. Morant is a bonafide top ten player in the league today. Rose was probably a stretch of an all-star pick.

Rose was a stretch of an all-star pick in 2011?

Do enlighten us how.

Bump

this is clearly Morant, he's better at pretty much everything. If Rose didn't win the MVP, a lot of people wouldn't hold the bias with that season. Huge DRose fan but people get silly with it. I remember people were still trying to say MVP Rose was better than Curry during his 2nd MVP campaign.

bigboi wrote:this is clearly Morant, he's better at pretty much everything.

If this is true, it should probably show up statistically.

PPG / RPG / APG (TOPG) / SPG / BPG Per 100
Morant: 39.1p / 8.5r / 9.7a (5.0t) / 1.8s / 0.6b
Rose: 35.6p / 5.8r / 10.9a (4.9t) / 1.5s / 0.9b

TS% / rTS%
Morant: .572 / +.012
Rose: .550 / +.009

RAPM / DRAPM
Morant: +1.1 / -0.6
Rose: +3.0 / +0.1

BPM / DBPM / WS48
Morant: +5.9 / -0.2 / .174
Rose: +6.3 / +0.5 / .208

Per Game lines look very close except in rebounding, which is mostly due to a big increase in Ja's defensive rebounding this year (they're only separated by 0.6 ORB Per 100). Ja also scores a little more, but assists a little less with a marginally worse assist/TO ratio.

Relative to their era their efficiency is almost identical but in absolute terms Ja is more efficient. Often in cross-era comparisons this is due to the newer player shooting more 3s or a higher 3P% but that's not true here. Their 3P% is identical (.332) and 3PA Per 100 almost identical (Rose actually leads 6.8 to 6.5). Ja's higher efficiency is owed entirely to his higher 2P% (.535 to .481), which IMO is a byproduct of playing in an era with a lot more interior space. League wide 2P% in 2011 was .485, this season it's .528; that 4.3% gap is almost all of the gap between the two players' 2P%. If Ja played in 2011 there's every reason to expect he would be around Rose's .550 TS%.

Advanced stats favor Rose, RAPM especially. It's especially worth noting DRAPM favors Rose, which is significant because the box stats have more trouble capturing defensive value. Rose's superior DRAPM also calls into question the significance of Morant's sizable lead in defensive rebounds per game. If DRAPM is taken at face value, either Ja's edge in DRBs per game doesn't translate into any real edge in overall defensive value, or it's more than offset by other defensive attributes. But of course, no stat including RAPM (or even better advanced stats) is absolutely authoritative.

The stats certainly don't say "Ja is better at pretty much everything" to me. They seem to confirm what my eyes tell me, which is that they're very close overall with maybe a very slight edge for one or the other in scoring and playmaking, and that perhaps Rose is doing some things a little better on both ends that aren't captured in the box score.

rand wrote:

bigboi wrote:this is clearly Morant, he's better at pretty much everything.

If this is true, it should probably show up statistically.

PPG / RPG / APG (TOPG) / SPG / BPG Per 100
Morant: 39.1p / 8.5r / 9.7a (5.0t) / 1.8s / 0.6b
Rose: 35.6p / 5.8r / 10.9a (4.9t) / 1.5s / 0.9b

TS% / rTS%
Morant: .572 / +.012
Rose: .550 / +.009

RAPM / DRAPM
Morant: +1.1 / -0.6
Rose: +3.0 / +0.1

BPM / DBPM / WS48
Morant: +5.9 / -0.2 / .174
Rose: +6.3 / +0.5 / .208

Per Game lines look very close except in rebounding, which is mostly due to a big increase in Ja's defensive rebounding this year (they're only separated by 0.6 ORB Per 100). Ja also scores a little more, but assists a little less with a marginally worse assist/TO ratio.

Relative to their era their efficiency is almost identical but in absolute terms Ja is more efficient. Often in cross-era comparisons this is due to the newer player shooting more 3s or a higher 3P% but that's not true here. Their 3P% is identical (.332) and 3PA Per 100 almost identical (Rose actually leads 6.8 to 6.5). Ja's higher efficiency is owed entirely to his higher 2P% (.535 to .481), which IMO is a byproduct of playing in an era with a lot more interior space. League wide 2P% in 2011 was .485, this season it's .528; that 4.3% gap is almost all of the gap between the two players' 2P%. If Ja played in 2011 there's every reason to expect he would be around Rose's .550 TS%.

Advanced stats favor Rose, RAPM especially. It's especially worth noting DRAPM favors Rose, which is significant because the box stats have more trouble capturing defensive value. Rose's superior DRAPM also calls into question the significance of Morant's sizable lead in defensive rebounds per game. If DRAPM is taken at face value, either Ja's edge in DRBs per game doesn't translate into any real edge in overall defensive value, or it's more than offset by other defensive attributes. But of course, no stat including RAPM (or even better advanced stats) is absolutely authoritative.

The stats certainly don't say "Ja is better at pretty much everything" to me. They seem to confirm what my eyes tell me, which is that they're very close overall with maybe a very slight edge for one or the other in scoring and playmaking, and that perhaps Rose is doing some things a little better on both ends that aren't captured in the box score.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

also to note regarding era, if you gave derrick jaren jackson jr. and slo mo spacing from the 4 spot instead of booz, derrick game look a lot different.

The D-Rose slander is crazy in this thread. We get it he shouldn't have been MVP but not an all-star? How else was that team winning and making the ECF (worth noting that Rose was completely dominant in the first two rounds before the clunker vs the Heat)? Rose was certainly an all star and one of the best guards in the league that year.

Lou Fan wrote:The D-Rose slander is crazy in this thread. We get it he shouldn't have been MVP but not an all-star? How else was that team winning and making the ECF (worth noting that Rose was completely dominant in the first two rounds before the clunker vs the Heat)? Rose was certainly an all star and one of the best guards in the league that year.

You're kidding right? That Bulls team was stacked, and although I think Rose was their best player, it's definitely debatable. They had Joakim Noah, Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer all with very strong cases.

SecondTake wrote:

Lou Fan wrote:The D-Rose slander is crazy in this thread. We get it he shouldn't have been MVP but not an all-star? How else was that team winning and making the ECF (worth noting that Rose was completely dominant in the first two rounds before the clunker vs the Heat)? Rose was certainly an all star and one of the best guards in the league that year.

You're kidding right? That Bulls team was stacked, and although I think Rose was their best player, it's definitely debatable. They had Joakim Noah, Luol Deng and Carlos Boozer all with very strong cases.

Deng and Noah were very good but Boozer? That's gotta be a joke right? The fact that Rose was able to do what he did in that offensive environment speaks volumes about his talent. It's not quite Iverson in Philly bad but it's bad.

Lockdown504090 wrote:

rand wrote:

bigboi wrote:this is clearly Morant, he's better at pretty much everything.

If this is true, it should probably show up statistically.

PPG / RPG / APG (TOPG) / SPG / BPG Per 100
Morant: 39.1p / 8.5r / 9.7a (5.0t) / 1.8s / 0.6b
Rose: 35.6p / 5.8r / 10.9a (4.9t) / 1.5s / 0.9b

TS% / rTS%
Morant: .572 / +.012
Rose: .550 / +.009

RAPM / DRAPM
Morant: +1.1 / -0.6
Rose: +3.0 / +0.1

BPM / DBPM / WS48
Morant: +5.9 / -0.2 / .174
Rose: +6.3 / +0.5 / .208

Per Game lines look very close except in rebounding, which is mostly due to a big increase in Ja's defensive rebounding this year (they're only separated by 0.6 ORB Per 100). Ja also scores a little more, but assists a little less with a marginally worse assist/TO ratio.

Relative to their era their efficiency is almost identical but in absolute terms Ja is more efficient. Often in cross-era comparisons this is due to the newer player shooting more 3s or a higher 3P% but that's not true here. Their 3P% is identical (.332) and 3PA Per 100 almost identical (Rose actually leads 6.8 to 6.5). Ja's higher efficiency is owed entirely to his higher 2P% (.535 to .481), which IMO is a byproduct of playing in an era with a lot more interior space. League wide 2P% in 2011 was .485, this season it's .528; that 4.3% gap is almost all of the gap between the two players' 2P%. If Ja played in 2011 there's every reason to expect he would be around Rose's .550 TS%.

Advanced stats favor Rose, RAPM especially. It's especially worth noting DRAPM favors Rose, which is significant because the box stats have more trouble capturing defensive value. Rose's superior DRAPM also calls into question the significance of Morant's sizable lead in defensive rebounds per game. If DRAPM is taken at face value, either Ja's edge in DRBs per game doesn't translate into any real edge in overall defensive value, or it's more than offset by other defensive attributes. But of course, no stat including RAPM (or even better advanced stats) is absolutely authoritative.

The stats certainly don't say "Ja is better at pretty much everything" to me. They seem to confirm what my eyes tell me, which is that they're very close overall with maybe a very slight edge for one or the other in scoring and playmaking, and that perhaps Rose is doing some things a little better on both ends that aren't captured in the box score.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

also to note regarding era, if you gave derrick jaren jackson jr. and slo mo spacing from the 4 spot instead of booz, derrick game look a lot different.

People called me crazy for thinking Rose was a much better defender than Morant.