Kevin Love vs Blake Griffin

[durantbird]

Who you got higher all time?

Kevin Love:
5x All Star
2x All NBA (seconds)
1x NBA Champion
1x Rebounding leader (11')
Three point contest champion, Most Improved Player

Blake Griffin:
6x All Star
5x All NBA (3 seconds, 2 thirds)
Rookie of the Year
3rd on MVP votes (14')
Slam Dunk contest champion

[No-more-rings]

I’d go with Griffin. Love has shown to be not that good in the playoffs while Griffin has 2015 which is something Love has never shown capable of. Both have been kind of an afterthought the past few seasons, but it seems like Griffin proved more during his prime.

[feyki]

All-NBA selections speaks for the compare. Griffin arguably has top 100 career, Love has just a HOF career(maybe even not).

[loveandbeer]

Blake was better in prime and peaked higher.

If Love continues to play well then he'll have better longevity, but not enough to close the gap IMO.

[trex_8063]

Well, I guess I'm going to go against the [slim] consensus and say probably I'd side with Kevin Love after this season. I think they were pretty much a dead heat for me going into this season, so the present year pushes Love just marginally ahead.

Griffin is giving some decent role-player minutes for a good team.......but Kevin Love is probably the front-runner for 6th Man of the Year, imo. He's having a terrific [low-minute] season for a surprisingly good [even very good] team.


I also disagree (potentially, anyway) with a statement saying Griffin peaked higher.
I think people forget about or otherwise sleep on Kevin Love's '14 campaign. He led his team [handily] in both ppg (4th in the entire league) and rpg (3rd in the entire league), while also being 2nd on his team in assists (a pretty substantial [for a big] 4.4 apg), while NOT leading them in turnovers. His turnover economy was actually pretty outstanding for a big-man, while scoring [26.1 ppg] at +5% rTS.

And although they missed the playoffs, this was NOT a poor team: they actually had the 9th-best SRS in the league [projected record was 48-34]. And they were better on offense than defense (were a +2.2 rORTG, fwiw).
Love anchored that 9th-rated offense with his principle teammates as follows (in descending order of minutes):
Ricky Rubio (NOT a good offensive PG)
Corey Brewer (a defensive role player)
Kevin Martin (good, not great, scorer; zilch playmaker)
Nikola Pekovic (decent offensive center)
Dante Cunningham (mostly defensive role player)
JJ Barea (in what was NOT one of his better years)
Gorgui Dieng (another principally defensive role player)
Luc Mbah a Moute (defensive role player)

I mean, the offense was basically Kevin Love with a bit of help from Martin and Pekovic, and then a bunch of mostly offensive liabilities; but they still came out 9th, largely because Kevin Love was kinda "holy s***" good that year. Although he certainly padded his rebounding stats at the expense of defense, that's still a super-impressive season.

[Owly]

Well, I guess I'm going to go against the [slim] consensus and say probably I'd side with Kevin Love after this season. I think they were pretty much a dead heat for me going into this season, so the present year pushes Love just marginally ahead.

Griffin is giving some decent role-player minutes for a good team.......but Kevin Love is probably the front-runner for 6th Man of the Year, imo. He's having a terrific [low-minute] season for a surprisingly good [even very good] team.


I also disagree (potentially, anyway) with a statement saying Griffin peaked higher.
I think people forget about or otherwise sleep on Kevin Love's '14 campaign. He led his team [handily] in both ppg (4th in the entire league) and rpg (3rd in the entire league), while also being 2nd on his team in assists (a pretty substantial [for a big] 4.4 apg), while NOT leading them in turnovers. His turnover economy was actually pretty outstanding for a big-man, while scoring [26.1 ppg] at +5% rTS.

And although they missed the playoffs, this was NOT a poor team: they actually had the 9th-best SRS in the league [projected record was 48-34]. And they were better on offense than defense (were a +2.2 rORTG, fwiw).
Love anchored that 9th-rated offense with his principle teammates as follows (in descending order of minutes):
Ricky Rubio (NOT a good offensive PG)
Corey Brewer (a defensive role player)
Kevin Martin (good, not great, scorer; zilch playmaker)
Nikola Pekovic (decent offensive center)
Dante Cunningham (mostly defensive role player)
JJ Barea (in what was NOT one of his better years)
Gorgui Dieng (another principally defensive role player)
Luc Mbah a Moute (defensive role player)

I mean, the offense was basically Kevin Love with a bit of help from Martin and Pekovic, and then a bunch of mostly offensive liabilities; but they still came out 9th, largely because Kevin Love was kinda "holy s***" good that year. Although he certainly padded his rebounding stats at the expense of defense, that's still a super-impressive season.

"Not a good offensive PG" is ambiguous but given the shouty caps on "NOT" and being in the group "mostly offensive liabilities" ... that seems a touch low on Rubio as an offensive player.

His teams seem pretty consistently to have played better on O with him on the floor, strongly so in the 14-17 window.
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/3191/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
A noisy measure sure but a fairly consistent trend.

Anyhow gut is to agree with the broader message (Love had a fairly special peak and dragged that Minny team to being pretty good).

[HeartBreakKid]

Griffin's playoff performances were pretty impressive for 2 or 3 years. He just seems like a better player.

Love has been mediocre to terrible for most of his time as a Cav, which represents the bulk of his prime.

[yoyoboy]

Love has been mediocre to terrible for most of his time as a Cav, which represents the bulk of his prime.

This is just not true at all. Per 36 minutes, since coming to the Cavs, Kevin Love has averaged 20 points, 12 rebounds, and 3 assists while shooting on 58% TS. All the while never being a first option. He ranked 96th percentile in the league in three-year RAPM for 2014-17 and 97th percentile for 2015-18. In what world, is that mediocre to terrible?

[trex_8063]

"Not a good offensive PG" is ambiguous but given the shouty caps on "NOT" and being in the group "mostly offensive liabilities" ... that seems a touch low on Rubio as an offensive player.

His teams seem pretty consistently to have played better on O with him on the floor, strongly so in the 14-17 window.
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/3191/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
A noisy measure sure but a fairly consistent trend.

Anyhow gut is to agree with the broader message (Love had a fairly special peak and dragged that Minny team to being pretty good).

Yeah, tone is hard to gauge in text.
I didn't mean to sound "shouty".......was more meant to imply a degree similar to that which is typically meant when someone says "by a small, but clear, margin."

When I look at Rubio on offense, I see a guy with terrific vision and passing ability, but with no scoring ability to leverage against that.
His PEAK scoring seasons have been 13.1 ppg, never once even achieving league-average shooting efficiency (I think his career avg is approximately -3% rTS [again: despite never having a large volume required of him]). He's a poor finisher at the rim (has NEVER hit even 59% and is actually an extremely poor 50.8% at the rim for his career [sub-.500 in '14, fwiw]), a mediocre mid-range shooter for his career overall [outright putrid in '14, fwiw], and a mediocre 3pt shooter, too (he does at least make his FT's well).
His overall turnover economy is only so-so for a PG, too (and he's a nil consideration on the offensive glass).

All around, it just doesn't seem like a good offensive player to me (most of my eye test came when he was in Utah, fwiw; and I wasn't impressed with him there: he was not a good fit with the pnr action with Gobert, as defenders could basically go under the screen and/or preferentially hang with Rudy with relative impunity ['cause Rubio was simply incapable of punishing them for it]).

Regarding his high offensive on/off in the '14-'17 window.......fair enough. I don't really have a good argument against his strong offensive on/off in '14, specifically.
In all years he enjoyed time on the court with the stronger offensive players. In '17, specifically, I'd note that his principle replacement was a young Chris Dunn (a horrid offensive player)......that's going to aid his individual on/off. Might have a similar thing going on with rookie Zach Lavine in '15, too.

So....idk. Maybe I can't rightly go so far as to call him outright "bad" offensively; but I'd still maintain he's not "good" either [on offense].

[cupcakesnake]

"Not a good offensive PG" is ambiguous but given the shouty caps on "NOT" and being in the group "mostly offensive liabilities" ... that seems a touch low on Rubio as an offensive player.

His teams seem pretty consistently to have played better on O with him on the floor, strongly so in the 14-17 window.
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/3191/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
A noisy measure sure but a fairly consistent trend.

Anyhow gut is to agree with the broader message (Love had a fairly special peak and dragged that Minny team to being pretty good).

Yeah, tone is hard to gauge in text.
I didn't mean to sound "shouty".......was more meant to imply a degree similar to that which is typically meant when someone says "by a small, but clear, margin."

When I look at Rubio on offense, I see a guy with terrific vision and passing ability, but with no scoring ability to leverage against that.
His PEAK scoring seasons have been 13.1 ppg, never once even achieving league-average shooting efficiency (I think his career avg is approximately -3% rTS [again: despite never having a large volume required of him]). He's a poor finisher at the rim (has NEVER hit even 59% and is actually an extremely poor 50.8% at the rim for his career [sub-.500 in '14, fwiw]), a mediocre mid-range shooter for his career overall [outright putrid in '14, fwiw], and a mediocre 3pt shooter, too (he does at least make his FT's well).
His overall turnover economy is only so-so for a PG, too (and he's a nil consideration on the offensive glass).

All around, it just doesn't seem like a good offensive player to me (most of my eye test came when he was in Utah, fwiw; and I wasn't impressed with him there: he was not a good fit with the pnr action with Gobert, as defenders could basically go under the screen and/or preferentially hang with Rudy with relative impunity ['cause Rubio was simply incapable of punishing them for it]).

Regarding his high offensive on/off in the '14-'17 window.......fair enough. I don't really have a good argument against his strong offensive on/off in '14, specifically.
In all years he enjoyed time on the court with the stronger offensive players. In '17, specifically, I'd note that his principle replacement was a young Chris Dunn (a horrid offensive player)......that's going to aid his individual on/off. Might have a similar thing going on with rookie Zach Lavine in '15, too.

So....idk. Maybe I can't rightly go so far as to call him outright "bad" offensively; but I'd still maintain he's not "good" either [on offense].

I don't disagree with the details and your description of the idea of Rubio. But somehow he does manage to consistently boost offense for much of his career.

Utah was more of an exception to this, for the reason you said: poor fit with Rudy Gobert. For all Gobert's strengths as a rim runner on offense, he doesn't have amazing hands, and his lack of a floater makes him a difficult pick & roll partner. Conley, Mitchell, Rubio have all had their struggles adjusting to Gobert as a pick & roll partner. Utah Rubio was pretty different from Minnesota Rubio in that he had lost a lot of athleticism post-injury. The first thing I noticed about Rubio in Utah was that he no longer was quick/fast enough to get around his man. He required a screen on every possession. In Minnesota, specifically in 2014, he could really break defenses down off the dribble and pry open some passing options. I kind of thought Rubio was basically done as a starting calibre point guard after watching him play in Utah, but he managed to bounce back significantly in Phoenix, Minnesota (again), and the in Cleveland pre-injury.

Rubio lacks any kind of scoring arsenal but manages to overcome this a bit by playing super aggressively. He's always had a knack for getting defenses to react to nothing. He's clever on and off the ball, he beats guys to spots, and quickly identifies any holes in the defense. I don't think Rubio is an ideal point guard on a high level offense, but he's very good at scrounging something from nothing. Pair him with a shooter or finisher and he'll raise the basement of a low offense. I think Rubio commands more respect from defenses than he deserves. If a defense stays focused and remembers Rubio can barely hit an open layup, it should be easy to deal with Rubio. But he has a hard to define ability to command respect from defenses. He drives with a lot of confidence and gets defenses off-balance in a way he shouldn't be able to do based on his skill set.

Pre-injury Rubio, paired with Love and Pek in Minnesota, should not be described as a "not a good offensive PG". I know we can look at his efficiency and back up that description earlier, but it certainly never felt that way in Minnesota. With Rubio on the floor, the machine of Love and the elbows, and Pek rolling into the paint was fully weaponized. Love was our best player but Rubio felt more indispensable. With Love on the bench, Rubio could still hit Pek on the roll, or hit Corey Brewer leaking out in transition, or find Kevin Martin off some Princeton action. I'm not saying RUbio>Love, I'm just pushing back on the idea that Kevin Love was lifting a mediocre offense in Minnesota. We had good offensive personnel with a nice variety of skills between Pek, Love, Martin, and Rubio. There was a lot going on there: Pekovic/Love/Dieng on the offensive boards gave us extra rim pressure, Kevin Martin gave us a safe los turnover perimeter option, Brewer and Rubio manufactured some transition offense for the slowest team in the league.

[Owly]

"Not a good offensive PG" is ambiguous but given the shouty caps on "NOT" and being in the group "mostly offensive liabilities" ... that seems a touch low on Rubio as an offensive player.

His teams seem pretty consistently to have played better on O with him on the floor, strongly so in the 14-17 window.
https://www.cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/3191/onoff#tab-team_efficiency
A noisy measure sure but a fairly consistent trend.

Anyhow gut is to agree with the broader message (Love had a fairly special peak and dragged that Minny team to being pretty good).

Yeah, tone is hard to gauge in text.
I didn't mean to sound "shouty".......was more meant to imply a degree similar to that which is typically meant when someone says "by a small, but clear, margin."

When I look at Rubio on offense, I see a guy with terrific vision and passing ability, but with no scoring ability to leverage against that.
His PEAK scoring seasons have been 13.1 ppg, never once even achieving league-average shooting efficiency (I think his career avg is approximately -3% rTS [again: despite never having a large volume required of him]). He's a poor finisher at the rim (has NEVER hit even 59% and is actually an extremely poor 50.8% at the rim for his career [sub-.500 in '14, fwiw]), a mediocre mid-range shooter for his career overall [outright putrid in '14, fwiw], and a mediocre 3pt shooter, too (he does at least make his FT's well).
His overall turnover economy is only so-so for a PG, too (and he's a nil consideration on the offensive glass).

All around, it just doesn't seem like a good offensive player to me (most of my eye test came when he was in Utah, fwiw; and I wasn't impressed with him there: he was not a good fit with the pnr action with Gobert, as defenders could basically go under the screen and/or preferentially hang with Rudy with relative impunity ['cause Rubio was simply incapable of punishing them for it]).

Regarding his high offensive on/off in the '14-'17 window.......fair enough. I don't really have a good argument against his strong offensive on/off in '14, specifically.
In all years he enjoyed time on the court with the stronger offensive players. In '17, specifically, I'd note that his principle replacement was a young Chris Dunn (a horrid offensive player)......that's going to aid his individual on/off. Might have a similar thing going on with rookie Zach Lavine in '15, too.

So....idk. Maybe I can't rightly go so far as to call him outright "bad" offensively; but I'd still maintain he's not "good" either [on offense].

Nothing to disagree with here too much. It might be that the passing and creating transition opportunities was enough for - even taking those numbers with a significant amount of salt [as raw on-off should be] what certainly (presently, imo) looks like a clearly positive impact? I don't know.

I'd further note that in that 4 year prime the stuff that was good was the stuff that you'd expect a good point guard to impact (avoiding turnovers, putting people in a position to shoot well or get fouled - whereas Oreb was poor).

Even ignoring, rather than focusing in on, prime the trend is a little above average and he's never really bad.

I just tried to get the old version of RPM up but can't get it to work presently ... Just worked (14: 1.43 ORPM; 15: can't seem to get [small sample, weakest offensive on-off of the run]; 16: 2.31; 17: can't find - probably should be there).

[HeartBreakKid]

Love has been mediocre to terrible for most of his time as a Cav, which represents the bulk of his prime.

This is just not true at all. Per 36 minutes, since coming to the Cavs, Kevin Love has averaged 20 points, 12 rebounds, and 3 assists while shooting on 58% TS. All the while never being a first option. He ranked 96th percentile in the league in three-year RAPM for 2014-17 and 97th percentile for 2015-18. In what world, is that mediocre to terrible?

In a world where you're being compared to all-nba players. 20 points on 58% is nothing special when you have the GOAT as your teammate, also you left out his playoff stats for a reason. (15 points and 2 assist on 55% TS sounds quite mediocre).

what is 20 points on 58% for the RS supposed to prove, that he's good enough to make the all-star team? I mean...yeah he did. Everyone knows this.

He's a atrocious defender while on the Cavs. How did you forget that part?

"Never being the first option" - yeah...because he's sucked and been injured since Lebron left. The fact that he has not been a first option on a lotto team would add to my point.





To summarize. His defense is terrible for an all-nba player. 15 points on 55 TS% is mediocre for even a starting player on a good team, and terrible for an all-nba player. Those are his best seasons as a Cav also, he's been crap until this season and he's still like a 25 MPG player.



"Not true at all" - certainly some truth to it, don't you agree? That's not excellence.


Kevin Love was good enough to make the all-star team in the east a few times...nothing much else to say about him really. His career has been a massive disappointment since leaving Minnesota. (I know he has a championship)

[Lost92Bricks]

I’d go with Griffin. Love has shown to be not that good in the playoffs while Griffin has 2015 which is something Love has never shown capable of. Both have been kind of an afterthought the past few seasons, but it seems like Griffin proved more during his prime.

More like he played with a superstar point guard during his prime. He has a losing record without Paul.

Switch Love and Griffin and the Timberolves would still miss the playoffs. And the Clippers would be better.

Love's 2014 season is better than Blake ever was.

[No-more-rings]

I’d go with Griffin. Love has shown to be not that good in the playoffs while Griffin has 2015 which is something Love has never shown capable of. Both have been kind of an afterthought the past few seasons, but it seems like Griffin proved more during his prime.

More like he played with a superstar point guard during his prime. He has a losing record without Paul.

Switch Love and Griffin and the Timberolves would still miss the playoffs. And the Clippers would be better.

Love's 2014 season is better than Blake ever was.

I mean look I know you have a tendency to knock down Griffin in order to prop up your favorite player, but you're not going to get away with just false rhetoric.

There is no evidence at all that CP3 helped Griffin's game in any way. Blake had one of his better seasons in 2019 without CP3 or another superstar for that matter. Griffin had one of his better seasons in his rookie year without CP3. And to be honest, neither of those are even prime seasons.

What does his record without CP3 have to do with anything? That's a really weird thing to bring up when here's Love's team records without Lebron.

2009: 24-58
2010: 15-67
2011: 17-65
2012: 26-40
2013: missed too many games
2014: 40-42
2020: 19-46

This season doesn't mean anything since he's not even the best player on that team.

[HeartBreakKid]

I’d go with Griffin. Love has shown to be not that good in the playoffs while Griffin has 2015 which is something Love has never shown capable of. Both have been kind of an afterthought the past few seasons, but it seems like Griffin proved more during his prime.

More like he played with a superstar point guard during his prime. He has a losing record without Paul.

Switch Love and Griffin and the Timberolves would still miss the playoffs. And the Clippers would be better.

Love's 2014 season is better than Blake ever was.

You're really making it seem like Paul made Griffin which is insane.

Kevin Love is a terrible post season player, saying he's better than BG is just unfounded really. People are pointing to one good RS season he had where he never made it to the playoffs, and all other samples of him in the playoffs is subpar.

The faith in Kevin Love, even in 2022 dumbfounds me a bit. BG at the very least is the same player come playoff time.

[JLei]

I find Kevin Love to be really damn underrated by most smarts. His rough matchup against a literal god squad was the only thing that was holding him back. Against every other team in the NBA? I mean you saw what those Cavs teams did to the East.

He's a unique talent that has almost never existed in the NBA (besides maybe Towns). He's a 3 point shooting big man, with a very strong post game and an elite rebounder. Elite floor spacer and pick and pop threat that you can't switch against. His post game especially is adept at punishing small players with his hook shot and killing them on the offensive glass.

The Kevin Love at center lineups were kind of the Cavs secret weapon. The mismatch on offense was bigger than the other way around (excluding the Warriors). Due to his shooting ability he pulls the big man away from the rim, but you couldn't go small or he'd kill you in the post (I'm a Raptor fan, still have nightmares of CJ Miles trying to guard him lol). It basically allowed Kyrie and Lebron to just walk to the rim. And while you sacrificed rim protection and foot speed in the pick and roll you didn't sacrifice defensive rebounding.

Most metrics have always liked/ loved him. I think his unicorn skill set in most settings gave him tremendous value. Fair criticism at the absolute highest levels his weaknesses were more magnified but I view the Warriors as more outlier than not.

I will say his career made a turn when he became GQ Kevin Love after getting traded to Cleveland and losing all that weight. Minnesota Kevin Love had all the 3 point shooting versatility but was a monster inside. He'd clear out big men in the post and on the glass. Cleveland Kevin Love was more of a post mismatch player than a straight post threat against equal size. Still insanely valuable in my mind but Minnesota Kevin Love was a scary player.

[MartinToVaught]

I may be biased, but I'll take Blake all day. Peak Blake was top 3 in MVP voting, putting up Barkley/Oscar statlines in the playoffs, and was the best player on the court in a series against the defending champion Spurs. Peak Love was boxing out his own teammates for rebounds on lottery teams. This wouldn't even be a debate if it wasn't for injuries and CP3 fanboys/media putting all the blame on Blake for Lob City's playoff failures.

[Lost92Bricks]

There is no evidence at all that CP3 helped Griffin's game in any way. Blake had one of his better seasons in 2019 without CP3 or another superstar for that matter. Griffin had one of his better seasons in his rookie year without CP3. And to be honest, neither of those are even prime seasons.

What does his record without CP3 have to do with anything? That's a really weird thing to bring up when here's Love's team records without Lebron.

Not talking about his game, I'm talking about winning. Assuming we're ignoring Love's championship because of Lebron.

Griffin "proved more" because he played with Paul, which got him playing competitive basketball every year.

Love played on the Timberwolves with Rubio as his point guard. Totally different. Switch the two and what would happen.

[No-more-rings]

There is no evidence at all that CP3 helped Griffin's game in any way. Blake had one of his better seasons in 2019 without CP3 or another superstar for that matter. Griffin had one of his better seasons in his rookie year without CP3. And to be honest, neither of those are even prime seasons.

What does his record without CP3 have to do with anything? That's a really weird thing to bring up when here's Love's team records without Lebron.

Not talking about his game, I'm talking about winning. Assuming we're ignoring Love's championship because of Lebron.

Griffin "proved more" because he played with Paul, which got him playing competitive basketball every year.

Love played on the Timberwolves with Rubio as his point guard. Totally different. Switch the two and what would happen.

I mean why are you bringing up winning when no one else is? When i said prove more, I'm talking about his performance.

I don't buy the Clippers being better with Love instead of Griffin. Say what you want about Griffin's defense, but with Love in his place the Clippers would be putrid on defense. They were already the top offense in some years, so i don't see Love changing much there.

Could you imagine Love playing the 2nd most important position on defense going against teams like OKC, the Spurs or GSW in the playoffs? Lol.

[MartinToVaught]

There is no evidence at all that CP3 helped Griffin's game in any way. Blake had one of his better seasons in 2019 without CP3 or another superstar for that matter. Griffin had one of his better seasons in his rookie year without CP3. And to be honest, neither of those are even prime seasons.

What does his record without CP3 have to do with anything? That's a really weird thing to bring up when here's Love's team records without Lebron.

Not talking about his game, I'm talking about winning. Assuming we're ignoring Love's championship because of Lebron.

Griffin "proved more" because he played with Paul, which got him playing competitive basketball every year.

Love played on the Timberwolves with Rubio as his point guard. Totally different. Switch the two and what would happen.

You're making Rubio sound like a scrub when he's actually a very solid point guard. A Blake/Rubio duo would have been must-see TV, more fun to watch than the actual Lob City turned out to be.

Love also had Rick Adelman as his coach in Minnesota, a far better coach than Vinny or Doc, and still couldn't win
anything.

This is where it really sucks that injuries destroyed Blake's career. We never really got to see how a healthy peak Blake would have done without CP3 marginalizing him. I tend to think he would have taken his game up a notch, kind of like how Nash leaving Dallas ended up fully unlocking Dirk.