GOAT COACHES -- PC Board Edition

[penbeast0]

We will start at #1 and take this through 10, then decide if we want to go 15. This is for COACHING ONLY, NOT GENERAL MANAGING DECISIONS.

My personal choice for GOAT coach is Phil Jackson.

Flaky player without great talent.

Went to Chicago where he took over a Michael Jordan led team, replacing Doug Collins who had won games but never titles. Convinced Jordan to move the ball out of his hands and play the triangle. Won titles in his 2-4 seasons there, Jordan retired for two years where the team continued to be relevant (55 and 47 wins), then Jordan returned and they won 3 more titles.

Went to LAL where Shaq was also an established superstar and Kobe gaining recognition as well but had never won a title and immediately won 3 titles before the team had a disappointing 03 and Shaq left. Later won 2 titles with Kobe and Pau Gasol.

Overall record .704, playoff record .688 with 11 titles in 20 years. Established a record of being able to get massive and/or fragile egos to play for him (Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Shaq, Kobe) as well as implementing Tex Winter's triangle offense.

HM Popovich, Auerbach.

[HeartBreakKid]

Is this NBA only?

[eminence]

I'm working on the assumption that NBL/ABA/BAA are all included unless told otherwise.

But for GOAT I've only got 4 real considerations on first thought - Phil, Pop, Red, Riley.

I'll have to look into their stats some more, as coaching careers isn't something I've done a deep dive on before. Does anyone feel there are any serious candidates I should be considering alongside those 4?

[Doctor MJ]

I'm working on the assumption that NBL/ABA/BAA are all included unless told otherwise.

But for GOAT I've only got 4 real considerations on first thought - Phil, Pop, Red, Riley.

I'll have to look into their stats some more, as coaching careers isn't something I've done a deep dive on before. Does anyone feel there are any serious candidates I should be considering alongside those 4?

For me, Phil, Pop & Red are the ones I'm considering for the top spot, but I wouldn't say Riley is a lock for #4. Alex Hannum comes to mind as a guy who I may well end up having above Riley.

I do think that Riley has an argument for being #2 all-time as for GOAT Non-Playing Career though. (Red's untouchable on that front.)

[sp6r=underrated]

I'm interested in how people will rank the coaches who racked up wins but never titles. Adelman, Nelson, etc.

I will state Riley executive career in Miami is as impressive as any sports figure in the last 40 years barring one man on the business front.

He turned Miami from a nothing franchise into an elite destination in the NBA.people make it sound like that is easy, but Why? Is Miami really an elite destination in any other sport? No. Is it a major media hub? I'm not sure it is equal to Chicago and nowhere close to NY/LA. Is Miami an elite hub for commerce? not really, it isn't that rich of a city. Yet now they are fairly close to a cornerstone franchise.

The most impressive business figure in sports is Jerry Jones. The Cowboys marketing success relative to other franchises makes no sense.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm interested in how people will rank the coaches who racked up wins but never titles. Adelman, Nelson, etc.

I will state Riley executive career in Miami is as impressive as any sports figure in the last 40 years barring one man on the business front.

He turned Miami from a nothing franchise into an elite destination in the NBA.people make it sound like that is easy, but Why? Is Miami really an elite destination in any other sport? No. Is it a major media hub? I'm not sure it is equal to Chicago and nowhere close to NY/LA. Is Miami an elite hub for commerce? not really, it isn't that rich of a city. Yet now they are fairly close to a cornerstone franchise.

The most impressive business figure in sports is Jerry Jones. The Cowboys marketing success relative to other franchises makes no sense.

Great points about what Riley has done with the Heat.

Re: Jones and the Cowboys. I could certainly see the argument for Jones warranting that stature, but I think it’s important to remember that the Cowboys first became “America’s Team” in the ‘70s with their being a massive military following of Roger Staubach. They weren’t just a popular winning team, there was a cultural identity to cheering for the team from that point onward that we’ve just never seem from any other Dallas team.

I might say that this is kind of a football thing. With other teams like the Raiders, 49ers, Bears, and Packers all having their own fan personalities. In some ways I feel like it’s a bit like WWF-style wrestling.


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[penbeast0]

Is this NBA only?

Basically. NBA and ABA, from 1948 on. No college or Euroleague coaches.

[penbeast0]

Not sure Riley's coaching career alone puts him top 5. He might be because everyone else has flaws but he's more impressive as an executive than he was as a coach.

Also not that impressed (relative to the GOAT #1) with Auerbach's coaching though Doctor MJ brought up his successful run in the 40s last time we did this which I had not known about. He was middle of the pack with Cousy, Sharman, and Macauley then had the brains to pick up Bill Russell who was the most impactful player in the history of the league. When he gave over coaching to Russell, the team didn't seem to be significantly worse off. Another guy more impressive as an executive (THE GOAT!) than as a coach (very good but not the guy who can take his guys and beat yours, then take your guys and beat his).

Larry Brown burns bridges at every stop but in terms of sheer coaching ability, he's got to be a top 5 candidate.

[Doctor MJ]

Vote: Phil Jackson

I'm surprising myself with this vote. In the end came down to him and Pop, and in general I've been on team Pop. Quite possibly I will again.

2 big things that have pushed me in this direction recently:

1. I don't think I gave Jackson enough credit in the past for adopting such a different scheme with Jordan, and getting buy in from all sides to do it. I rave abut Hannum all the time for what he did with Wilt, and there are some serious parallels here.

2. I've come to appreciate why so many of Jackson's assistants fail as coaches. It's not that you can't learn great things under Jackson that allow you to become a great coach yourself - Steve Kerr - it's that there's a lot of subtlety to coaching this way successfully, and many coaches are just too rigid to pull it off.

[falcolombardi]

I'm interested in how people will rank the coaches who racked up wins but never titles. Adelman, Nelson, etc.

I will state Riley executive career in Miami is as impressive as any sports figure in the last 40 years barring one man on the business front.

He turned Miami from a nothing franchise into an elite destination in the NBA.people make it sound like that is easy, but Why? Is Miami really an elite destination in any other sport? No. Is it a major media hub? I'm not sure it is equal to Chicago and nowhere close to NY/LA. Is Miami an elite hub for commerce? not really, it isn't that rich of a city. Yet now they are fairly close to a cornerstone franchise.

The most impressive business figure in sports is Jerry Jones. The Cowboys marketing success relative to other franchises makes no sense.

Great points about what Riley has done with the Heat.

Re: Jones and the Cowboys. I could certainly see the argument for Jones warranting that stature, but I think it’s important to remember that the Cowboys first became “America’s Team” in the ‘70s with their being a massive military following of Roger Staubach. They weren’t just a popular winning team, there was a cultural identity to cheering for the team from that point onward that we’ve just never seem from any other Dallas team.

I might say that this is kind of a football thing. With other teams like the Raiders, 49ers, Bears, and Packers all having their own fan personalities. In some ways I feel like it’s a bit like WWF-style wrestling.


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had never heard about that, what personalities are those?

[Doctor MJ]

I'm interested in how people will rank the coaches who racked up wins but never titles. Adelman, Nelson, etc.

I will state Riley executive career in Miami is as impressive as any sports figure in the last 40 years barring one man on the business front.

He turned Miami from a nothing franchise into an elite destination in the NBA.people make it sound like that is easy, but Why? Is Miami really an elite destination in any other sport? No. Is it a major media hub? I'm not sure it is equal to Chicago and nowhere close to NY/LA. Is Miami an elite hub for commerce? not really, it isn't that rich of a city. Yet now they are fairly close to a cornerstone franchise.

The most impressive business figure in sports is Jerry Jones. The Cowboys marketing success relative to other franchises makes no sense.

Great points about what Riley has done with the Heat.

Re: Jones and the Cowboys. I could certainly see the argument for Jones warranting that stature, but I think it’s important to remember that the Cowboys first became “America’s Team” in the ‘70s with their being a massive military following of Roger Staubach. They weren’t just a popular winning team, there was a cultural identity to cheering for the team from that point onward that we’ve just never seem from any other Dallas team.

I might say that this is kind of a football thing. With other teams like the Raiders, 49ers, Bears, and Packers all having their own fan personalities. In some ways I feel like it’s a bit like WWF-style wrestling.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

had never heard about that, what personalities are those?

Cowboys - American Masculinity!
Raiders - Monster Motorcycle Gang!
Bears - Blue Collar Midwestern!
Packers - Goofy Smalltown USA!
49ers - Bay Area Effete!


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[DQuinn1575]

I'm interested in how people will rank the coaches who racked up wins but never titles. Adelman, Nelson, etc.

I will state Riley executive career in Miami is as impressive as any sports figure in the last 40 years barring one man on the business front.

He turned Miami from a nothing franchise into an elite destination in the NBA.people make it sound like that is easy, but Why? Is Miami really an elite destination in any other sport? No. Is it a major media hub? I'm not sure it is equal to Chicago and nowhere close to NY/LA. Is Miami an elite hub for commerce? not really, it isn't that rich of a city. Yet now they are fairly close to a cornerstone franchise.

The most impressive business figure in sports is Jerry Jones. The Cowboys marketing success relative to other franchises makes no sense.

Great points about what Riley has done with the Heat.

Re: Jones and the Cowboys. I could certainly see the argument for Jones warranting that stature, but I think it’s important to remember that the Cowboys first became “America’s Team” in the ‘70s with their being a massive military following of Roger Staubach. They weren’t just a popular winning team, there was a cultural identity to cheering for the team from that point onward that we’ve just never seem from any other Dallas team.

I might say that this is kind of a football thing. With other teams like the Raiders, 49ers, Bears, and Packers all having their own fan personalities. In some ways I feel like it’s a bit like WWF-style wrestling.


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The Cowboys were "America's Team" way before Jones. If anything their popularity is probably a little lower than when he got the franchise. And it really wasn't just the military for Staubach.

[penbeast0]

Cowboys - American Masculinity!
Raiders - Monster Motorcycle Gang!
Bears - Blue Collar Midwestern!
Packers - Goofy Smalltown USA!
49ers - Bay Area Effete!


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I would have called the Cowboys "Welcome to the Machine" at least in the Landry era; but then I grew up wearing Burgundy and Gold so I don't pretend to be unbiased.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm interested in how people will rank the coaches who racked up wins but never titles. Adelman, Nelson, etc.

I will state Riley executive career in Miami is as impressive as any sports figure in the last 40 years barring one man on the business front.

He turned Miami from a nothing franchise into an elite destination in the NBA.people make it sound like that is easy, but Why? Is Miami really an elite destination in any other sport? No. Is it a major media hub? I'm not sure it is equal to Chicago and nowhere close to NY/LA. Is Miami an elite hub for commerce? not really, it isn't that rich of a city. Yet now they are fairly close to a cornerstone franchise.

The most impressive business figure in sports is Jerry Jones. The Cowboys marketing success relative to other franchises makes no sense.

Great points about what Riley has done with the Heat.

Re: Jones and the Cowboys. I could certainly see the argument for Jones warranting that stature, but I think it’s important to remember that the Cowboys first became “America’s Team” in the ‘70s with their being a massive military following of Roger Staubach. They weren’t just a popular winning team, there was a cultural identity to cheering for the team from that point onward that we’ve just never seem from any other Dallas team.

I might say that this is kind of a football thing. With other teams like the Raiders, 49ers, Bears, and Packers all having their own fan personalities. In some ways I feel like it’s a bit like WWF-style wrestling.


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The Cowboys were "America's Team" way before Jones. If anything their popularity is probably a little lower than when he got the franchise. And it really wasn't just the military for Staubach.

Oh definitely, I think the question is really what all the factors were. Here's what I see:

1. The Cowboys were extremely successful on the field in the '70s, and didn't really have a negative reputation before hand, making them well-suited for a bandwagon.

2. Texas is arguably THE football state in the country - everybody in town goes to the high school football game on Friday, and they pay high school football coaches in a way that let's them suck away talent from other places - and they had no successfully established NFL franchise before the Cowboys. It was a niche that was ripe.

3. The Cowboy Cheerleaders, aka "America's Sweethearts", became a phenomenon in their own right.

4. This was the age of the Vietnam War, where political polarization along those lines was a big deal. In Roger Staubach you had a Heisman Trophy winner spend ages 22 to 27 in Vietnam. For anyone associated with the military, at a time when they felt disrespected by American culture, Staubach represented something like the ideal man just based on that.

Here you can see the way it's been played up with the military-inspired Cowboys helmet, and with Staubach including his nickname "Captain America" in his autograph.



5. Staubach fully took the reins of the Cowboys mid-season in 1971 when the team was 4-3, and they didn't lose another game on their way to their first Super Bowl victory. Staubach would finish 2nd in the NFL's MVP, when the Bell Player of the Year, and win Super Bowl MVP. This ability to take the NFL by storm immediately let everyone who was looking to champion Staubach and his team do so with incredible enthusiasm.

6. Staubach was incredible to watch. Frankly he did stuff that we later came to associate with Black quarterbacks and people developed a very different attitude later because of this (ugly truth), but he had a tendency not just to scramble, but just be incredibly dynamic out there. One photo that I think gets to the essence of that appeal:

“He was the greatest sports hero of his time,” former Cowboys president and general manager Tex Schramm

Now to be clear y'all - this is all before my time. I don't claim to be the expert on these things and hope I don't come across like I know better than everyone else, but as a kid in the '80s, it was strange to me how popular the Dallas Cowboys were and so it's something I've done some research on.

The dynasty of the '90s is of course huge in adding in future generations of bandwagon fans, but I think the fact that the Cowboys stayed popular in the '80s and in the decades of the 21st century has a lot to do with people feeling culturally bound to the Cowboys as something more than just a sports team.

[SHAQ32]

Close but I'm going Pop. The way he coached in Duncan's twilight years and after, with different casts, was something we never saw with Phil.

[trex_8063]

Vote: Gregg Popovich

Within the next few weeks he'll become the all-time leader in rs wins as head coach, is I believe 3rd all-time in playoff victories; 5 titles, 6 conference championships. Did all of this in a brutally competitive conference while coaching a small-market team, seemingly always pulling the most out of the personnel he had, coaching an all-time great team that somehow managed to be so much more than a sum of their parts ('14 Spurs), 3-time NBA Coach of the Year.....
He's the guy for me. Having Tim Duncan for most of your tenure obviously helps, but Pop's a special coach, imo.

And to anyone who's ever used the "he was just lucky to have Popovich as head coach" line as a disparaging remark against Tim Duncan, perhaps as argumentation to rank him below Kobe Bryant, in particular.......arguably hypocritical to NOT then be voting for Popovich right now (and especially if you're instead voting Phil Jackson). That said: Phil Jackson is my top HM, and is the other guy with the most outstanding resume, imo.

[DQuinn1575]

I'm taking Pat RIley as #1, he was very successful at 3 places.
The LA situation was a you win with people situation, so it's really hard to assess how good the coach is/was.
But he then coached a completely different style in New York, and was very successful there.
Then he did the same in Miami.

Jackson took things from good to great in 2 situations, but Riley succeeded in 3. Auerbach & Pop are probably the other top coaches, I just think RIley was the best success with 3 different franchises, so I take him as #1.

[homecourtloss]

Vote: Phil Jackson.

The first thing: Has anyone ever managed planet sized egos better than Jackson? Obviously nothing can ever be perfect, but he has done it as well as anyone ever has.

Secondly and related to the first point: he knew what he wanted offensively and defensively and he got buy in from his stars. And in doing so, he also got the secondary tier players to play their best as well. Ron Harper was a 18-20 ppg player, came to Chicago, sacrificed his scoring, and became a defensive menace for the Bulls. Horace Grant, wildly underrated by most, gave the Bulls everything they needed out of the third best player in the early 1990s. Kukoc developed as well as one could hope for a player playing with two players who would have the ball in their hands more than he did, i.e., Jordan and Pippen. Fisher’s impact far exceeded his talent levels.

Third, and I think the most underrated part of his coaching and what has impressed me most about Jackson over the years is that nobody ever got more out of role players executing their roles, especially in the playoffs. How many players under him played as negatives? And even when he had negative players. e.g., Longley in later years, Wennington, Buechler, Randy Brown, etc., he got always at least one side of the ball out of them and minimized their respective detrimental impact. He used Randy Brown’s defense, he maximized Rodman’s offensive value, he minimized Longley’s offensive weaknesses, he played around with small ball to minimize the lack of spacing (Bulls’ small ball lineups had some of the most gaudy +/- numbers), Farmar’s defense in LA, and so on.

[Larry_Russell]

Coach K and Ettore Messina deserve some love

[penbeast0]

Coach K and Ettore Messina deserve some love

Sorry, should have said GOAT NBA coaches. No disrespect intended but it's hard enough making comparisons across eras.