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i am more impressed by magic play-off results than those of curry tbh so probably most of his peak seasons by a small Margin

1987, 1988 and probably 1990.

1986, 1989 and 1991 are close, but not complete enough to pick them in my opinion.

Probably every version between 85-90, I think 91 has a good case as well. I know that may sound like too many to some people, but Magic was so consistent in that span, there just doesn't seem to be a big difference between all those years.

After a second thought, I might pick 1986 as well. 1989 would be a no-brainer, but he missed games in postseason. That said, Curry missed a lot of postseason games at his peak as well, so maybe I should go with 1989 anyway.

87,89, and 90

70sFan wrote:1986, 1987, 1988 and probably 1990.

Interesting.

Just curious......when you make decisions like this, which metrics are you basing it on?

ty 4191 wrote:

70sFan wrote:1986, 1987, 1988 and probably 1990.

Interesting.

When you make decisions like this, which metrics are you basing it on?

It's impossible to answer such questions via one or few metrics. I look at all the data available and try to contextualize it. I see that Magic-led offenses usually were more resiliant in postseason and that Johnson production was less related to his teammates or opponents faced.

70sFan wrote:It's impossible to answer such questions via one or few metrics. I look at all the data available and try to contextualize it. I see that Magic-led offenses usually were more resiliant in postseason and that Johnson production was less related to his teammates or opponents faced.

Can you explain how you contextualize it?

What does resilient mean, to you?

What do you mean by his production was less related to teammates or opponents faced?

ty 4191 wrote:

70sFan wrote:It's impossible to answer such questions via one or few metrics. I look at all the data available and try to contextualize it. I see that Magic-led offenses usually were more resiliant in postseason and that Johnson production was less related to his teammates or opponents faced.

Can you explain how you contextualize it?

What does resilient mean, to you?

What do you mean by his production was less related to teammates or opponents faced?

I have way too little time to answer for all these questions unfortunately You can always search for similar threads and find my older posts. I always try to back up my statements with reasonable argumentation (at least I try, doesn't mean that it always work ).

ty 4191 wrote:

70sFan wrote:It's impossible to answer such questions via one or few metrics. I look at all the data available and try to contextualize it. I see that Magic-led offenses usually were more resiliant in postseason and that Johnson production was less related to his teammates or opponents faced.

Can you explain how you contextualize it?

What does resilient mean, to you?

What do you mean by his production was less related to teammates or opponents faced?

resiliency generally is used to talk about players or teams that can keep their level against stronger teams

it usually is used for offense, example a offense that doesnt lose much of their effectiveness even against great defense

hakeem rockets championship teams are the traditional example of this, they were not particularly good in regular season but hakeem and the rockets didnt suffer a drop (in fact they -improved-) against the tougher average playoofs defense

82/90.

feyki wrote:82/90.

What makes you pick early 1980s versions over 1991? I think that Magic was clearly better in 1991 than 1983, he had one of the worst series of his career in 1983 finals. Johnson became much more complete offensive player after 1984.

70sFan wrote:I have way too little time to answer for all these questions unfortunately .

Ok, makes sense. Please respond when you do you have some time to explain. Thank you!

I would not pick any versions of Magic over '15 or '17 Curry.

eminence wrote:I would not pick any versions of Magic over '15 or '17 Curry.

I wouldn't either. I still think Magic is overrated, here.

ty 4191 wrote:

eminence wrote:I would not pick any versions of Magic over '15 or '17 Curry.

I wouldn't either. I still think Magic is overrated, here.

Now, can you explain why you find him overrated? Anything not related to WC weakness, but actual Magic shortcomings as a player?

70sFan wrote:Now, can you explain why you find him overrated? Anything not related to WC weakness, but actual Magic shortcomings as a player?

Sure, as soon as you explain what contextualizing Curry vs. Magic's numbers means, and why you rank 4 Magic seasons ahead of Steph's best! (Just kidding). Seriously though....please do when you can.

Honestly, for starters... the main critique I have of Magic (and I've watched/watched a lot of full games of his, both live, and on YouTube) is his shooting. I know his TS% and TS Added are much better than Bird's (by a mile), but Bird (and Steph) looked to me like MUCH better shooters from 3 and from 18 feet plus than Magic.

He seemed to lack confidence in his outside shot for most of his career, and to me, a PG needs to be able to shoot frequently, willingly, and (hopefully), extremely well from the outside. You need that in clutch moments; not everyone has KAJ in the paint to bail them out for basically their entire career.

I also put a premium on strength of competition, as it impacts team and player records a ton. And, the Western Conference during his career was just very, very weak.

I think if he plays in the Eastern Conference on the Celtics, they only win 2 or maybe 3 Championships. It really was that disparate.

ty 4191 wrote:Sure, as soon as you explain what contextualizing Curry vs. Magic's numbers means, and why you rank 4 Magic seasons ahead of Steph's best! (Just kidding). Seriously though....please do when you can.

I'll try to make it short

I think that we have enough evidences of Magic-led offenses sustaining greatness against the best competition available. Here are all 1980-91 Lakers series against -2.0 or better defenses:

1988 Lakers RS: 113.1 ORtg (+5.1 rORtg)
1988 vs Jazz (-4.9 rDRtg): 111.1 ORtg (+8.0 rORtg)
1988 vs Pistons (-2.7 rDRtg): 108.9 ORtg (+4.6 rORtg)

1989 Lakers RS: 113.8 (+6.0 rORtg)
1989 vs Suns (-2.1 rDRtg): 113.6 ORtg (+7.9 rORtg)

1990 Lakers RS: 114.0 ORtg (+5.9 rORtg)
1990 vs Rockets (-4.7 rDRtg): 115.0 ORtg (+11.6 rORtg)
1990 vs Suns (-2.0 rDRtg): 111.9 ORtg (+5.7 rORtg)

1991 Lakers RS: 112.1 ORtg (+4.2 rORtg)
1991 vs Rockets (-4.0 rDRtg): 110.5 ORtg (+6.6 rORtg)
1991 vs Blazers (-3.6 rDRtg): 111.9 ORtg (+7.6 rORtg)
1991 vs Bulls (-2.7 rDRtg): 104.5 ORtg (-0.7 rORtg)

The only time Lakers played below their expected level offensively was against the Bulls in 1991 finals, when their roster was full of injuries and Magic had to carry his team to be even competitive. On top of that, Lakers dominated other strong defensive teams like 1984, 1985 and 1987 Celtics as well. The only other time during Magic's absolute prime (1984-91) when Lakers struggled offensively was against the Rockets in 1986.

In comparison, Warriors struggled offensively numerous times. They were poor against the 2013 Spurs, underwhelming against 2015 Grizzlies and mediocre against injured 2015 Cavs team. Then after one of the greatest RS ever, they struggled a lot on offensive end against 2016 Thunder and Cavs, they basically remained competitive because of their defense.

To their credit, they completely destroyed any defense they faced in 2017, but Warriors added Durant in that season. They also dominated their opponents in 2018 again, but then they weren't spectacular against Toronto without KD either.

I trust Magic-led offenses to be more consistent against quality competition overall. I know that Lakers faced a lot of poor teams in the 1980s, but he did face stiff competition in some years and it didn't change anything.

On top of that, Magic individual production also seemed to remain more steady than in Curry's case. 1985-91 Magic didn't have a single underpeformance on Curry's 2016 finals level. Then Curry was wildly inconsistent in 2015 against the Grizzles and the Cavs as well. He had a rough series vs Rockets in 2018 (arguably wasn't even 3rd best player in the series) and even worse one in 2019 against Houston. Probably the worst series Magic had from individual standpoint in his prime was 1991 finals series when he wasn't bad at all, he just didn't have any help. Curry had plenty of help during discussed years.

Of course, you can point out some earlier Magic rough performances like 1984 finals or 1981 first round, but then I can point out Curry's 2013 vs Spurs as well, which wouldn't be pretty either.

It's clear that Curry was less consistent than Magic in postseason, which is understandable. Curry relies heavily on outside shots and off-ball game, which are less consistent than what Magic gave you regulary.

Honestly, for starters... the main critique I have of Magic (and I've watched/watched a lot of full games of his, both live, and on YouTube) is his shooting. I know his TS% and TS Added are much better than Bird's (by a mile), but Bird (and Steph) looked to me like MUCH better shooters from 3 and from 18 feet plus than Magic.

He seemed to lack confidence in his outside shot for most of his career, and to me, a PG needs to be able to shoot frequently, willingly, and (hopefully), extremely well from the outside. You need that in clutch moments; not everyone has KAJ in the paint to bail them out for basically their entire career.

I would agree with this critique if we're talking about pre-1985 Magic. Young Magic wasn't a good shooter and he didn't have enough confidence in his shot. That's not the case with peak Magic though, who torched defenses every time they try to defend him under the screen. Peak Magic was very accurate midrange shooter and capable three point shooter. I don't have Magic shooting data, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was as accurate from midrange as Bird on lesser volume.

I also put a premium on strength of competition, as it impacts team and player records a ton. And, the Western Conference during his career was just very, very weak.

I think if he plays in the Eastern Conference on the Celtics, they only win 2 or maybe 3 Championships. It really was that disparate.

1. It's not a given, because Lakers usually played very well against EC teams.

2. Even if that's true, what would that change? Curry himself "only" has 3 rings. Less rings wouldn't turn Magic into a worse player and we already know that he was excellent against top tier competition. I mean, I'd take 1990 Magic over any version of Curry even though he lost in the second round.

85-91