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how do you think he could he adapt his game to the modern playstyle and would he keep the same impact?

post scorers who pass the ball little (moses seems to have had really low playmakinh goinh off assists) seem to have been a profile that has suffered over the years in effectiveness (or maybe it was never that effective and people catched on)

although in his case he created a lot of his shots with his offensive rebounding so that obviously changes thinghs

the other concern is that offensive rebounding numbers are not what they used to be, maybe cause 3 point shooting or teams prioritizong fast break defense

considering those thinghs how well do you think a talent with his particular skillset could translate today?

Funny thing, as I just came back to tracking 1981 Moses games today, so I'm fresh off 4 prime Moses games

One thing that is often overlooked in such hypotheticals are intangibles. Moses was extremely hard working young man at the beginning of his career. He wasn't versatile player and he had physical limitations (undersized, small hands, not very explosive athlete), but he worked hard to develop his game that would maximize his strengths (quickness, strength and foul drawing ability). A lot of people think that Moses was just a brute force inside with little else, but even his offensive rebounding ability was closely related to his dedication. Here we have a brief interview from Moses first MVP season in 1979 about his offensive rebounding:



Note that Moses was only 24 at that time. He wasn't a veteran talking about all these little things, he was still raw player but it shows how much time he put on his game, it's incredible.

If we take a look at young version of Moses (say, 1979), we can project how he'd develop in modern environment:





We can see that he was light on his feet and he was very active without the ball. These two things would help him a lot in 2022. On top of that, you can see that he had very strong core despite not filling out yet - he pushed Jack Sikma around and Sikma was not a little guy. Shooting touch was also there - he took a lot of contested fadeaways and odd looking inside finishes, yet he finished the season with 54% FG. Of couse his ability to second/third/whatever jumping is unmatched by other guys his size.

I can see this version of Malone being extremely impactful in modern game, but he'd have a lot to work on. The first thing is his face up game and this one is easy - Moses developed a solid faceup game and decent midrange shot even in real life, so it's expected that he'd be even better today with that. Another thing is his defense and here the concern is much bigger - young Malone had absolutely horrible fundamentals. He needed another 2 years to improve on that end and I'm afraid he'd have to correct these things even quicker today. He'd also have to work on two-men game, because I haven't seen him playing many P&Rs until the 1982, when he started to become more versatile player. Passing is also an issue, but not nearly as big as some may think - Moses wouldn't be the offensive creator in modern game.

All in all, I think that 1979 Moses floor is being low all-nba level center. Even assuming he would develop identical game as he actually did (which is unlikely, players work on different aspects of their games today), I think that 1982-83 Moses was good enough to compete with Embiid for the 2nd best center in the league. His ceilling is MVP-level, though probably not on a year like we have now given Jokic surreal play in recent months.

No response from guys that don't like Moses that much?

70sFan wrote:No response from guys that don't like Moses that much?

i would love to discuss but unfortunately know very little of moses game beyond stats

any recopilation or full game you recommend watching to get a good idea of his play?

falcolombardi wrote:

70sFan wrote:No response from guys that don't like Moses that much?

i would love to discuss but unfortunately know very little of moses game beyond stats

any recopilation or full game you recommend watching to get a good idea of his play?

For the first touch with Moses,, I'd recommand my video I did a few years ago. I know, I probably shouldn't recommand my videos but I made an attempt to grasp Moses whole game. I split this video into parts, so you can see how he played in the post, in two-man game or inside the boards:



If you want to watch a few full games, then I'd start with 1983 finals of course, but also 1983 series vs Knicks. Strictly for offense, 1981 games are up there, but keep in mind that he improved a lot on defensive end in the following seasons.

If Giannis dominates the league with zero shooting, Moses probably would be like Shaq. Also, he was very mobile on the defensive end. I would say 79/81 Moses would be clear mvp option, 82 Moses would be like Embiid since 01/01/2022(but with worse playmaking).

Putting a Center like Moses in a league where PFs play Center sounds like a nightmare for the other 29 teams

It's hard to imagine an off-ball workhorse to do bad in any era.
Considering he was an 80% FT shooter from 84 to 92 (82% in the playoff in that same period) there's probably enough natural shooting touch in him to space the floor too.

Wouldn't be surprised if he could have been a good (or excellent) 3pt spot up shooter with practice.

Moses has enough talent to still be an MVP today. Maybe not with Jokic having a season like this, but other years sure.

feyki wrote:If Giannis dominates the league with zero shooting, Moses probably would be like Shaq. Also, he was very mobile on the defensive end. I would say 79/81 Moses would be clear mvp option, 82 Moses would be like Embiid since 01/01/2022(but with worse playmaking).

I am talking about 1981 Moses because I just rewatched the 1981 finals and game 3 of Rockets Lakers where Moses defeats the Kareem and the champion Lakers. Moses did have help. Robert Reid would be on my top 10 all time underrated list and Calvin Murphy won some games for the Rockets.

1983 Moses may be be better. 1981 Moses had plenty of Muscle but 1983 Moses added more Musscle and some fat and may have further refined his inside scoring. In terms of simply being overpowerring 1983 Moses was second to Shaq in what I have seen but maybe Artis Gilmore might belong in the discussion. Jokic may be up there in power but he does not rely on his power.

Embiid uses moves more like Hakeem. Giannis drives more like David Robinson.
Moses won MVP in 1979, 1982 and 1983. 1982 MVP joining the 76ers is sort of the first superteam formation by players that I am aware of. Maybe Wilt joing West and Baylor was also like that but I don't remember whether Wilt forced that move.

1981 Moses was more mobile than 1983 Moses. The Idea that Shaq, Moses and the big centers of the past could not play in a you must switch onto the guard at the 3 pointline modern offensive setting us wrong. It is more wrong for 1981 Moses than it is for Shaq. The coach can work out something to not be forced to go small against modern teams that can shoot 3s while comming off picks and screens.

1981 Moses was a lot more mobile than Shaq. If fact Moses was not even the starting center. Billy Paultz was the starting center and was less mobile than Moses. Billy Paultz was a pretty good mid range shooter which helped keep a help defender away from Moses. Tough choice for a coach on defense, double Moses with 2 bigs and you are letting Billy Paultz shoot open free throw line area jump shots which he coukd hit. So you have to mix up where you double Moses from. You have to double Moses. Moses will beat any man one on one.

Because Paultz was a center Moses spent a lot of time guarding power forwards. Moses had enough Mobility. 1983 Moses would probably get burned by a swwitch onto guard at the 3 point line in the modern game. 1981 Moses might be able to dance with a guard at the 3 point line long enough for help to get set up.

Sometimes Moses would miss 3 shots in a row only to grab the offensive rebound 3 times in a row and put in the 4th shot. Moses tended tomdraw fouls when he rebounded his own misses.

I saw Moses get a fast break bucket by not coming bacck on defense. Moses busted his butt under the boards and had a good excuse for getting tired but not getting back on defense raises a question about Moses's stamina. But the 1981 Rockets relied so heavily on Moses thhat maybe a modern player also might be slow to get back on defense in that situation.

Bottom line imagine a bigger super version of Zach Randolph. I would expect to leand the NBA in rebounding and scoring and Win the MVP if he was on a good team if I plunked him into the current NBA. Who is In the NBA that has a prayer of slowing down Moses? Gobert and who else? Stevie Adams and Jokic may have the required strength but they would get in foul trouble if they tried to defend Moses. Parish got in foul trouble defending Moses. Other than Gobert what other center playing today is as good a defensive center against inside scorers as Rober Parish was?

Nobody utilzed shooting as a pass to himself more than Moses. I hear that Drummand has rediscovered that move. Moses's shots bounced straight forward allowing Moses to get in deeper during the loose ball and then just get that rebound with his power and put it in the net.

Moses would torch this league on offense and the idea that modern centers so much more capable of defending the 3 point line switches just isn't true in the case of 1981 Moses.

frica wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if he could have been a good (or excellent) 3pt spot up shooter with practice.
.

There is no point to even asking Mosees to practice a 3 point shot.
I don't think he would get better than 30% on threes if he worked at it and he was so good inside that I don't see the point in him shooting 3s even if he shot them well. The current NBA is full of 3 point shooters.

Rick Pitino's Knicks shot twice as many 3s as the other NBA teams and his motive was to get help defenders away from Patrick Ewing. Then Rudy T's Rockets shot a lot more 3s than the rest of the NBA and again the point was to get the help defenders away from Hakeem. Surrounding LeBron with 3 point shooters worked because it openned up LeBron's drive and LeBron had the court vision to find the 3 point shooter who's man had left to his man to provide interior help defense.

Don't ask Moses to shoot 3's but do give him 3 point shooters to keep help defenders away from him. Don't ask Moses to find the open 3 point shooters. Moses just needs to find Robert Reid and Robert Reid will find thevopen 3 point shooters. 1981 Moses had Dunleavy who could hit a 3 but the coaches at that time did not believe in 3 point shooting. They did like Calvin Murphy shooting 18 footers. Henderson was not a shooter, he just handled the ball. Paultz range stopped at the freethrow line. Willoughby may have been the greatest leaper ever but he could not shoot. Reid could hit mid range. That team was only mediocre at openning up space for Moses to work with.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

frica wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if he could have been a good (or excellent) 3pt spot up shooter with practice.
.

There is no point to even asking Mosees to practice a 3 point shot.
I don't think he would get better than 30% on threes if he worked at it and he was so good inside that I don't see the point in him shooting 3s even if he shot them well. The current NBA is full of 3 point shooters.

Rick Pitino's Knicks shot twice as many 3s as the other NBA teams and his motive was to get help defenders away from Patrick Ewing. Then Rudy T's Rockets shot a lot more 3s than the rest of the NBA and again the point was to get the help defenders away from Hakeem. Surrounding LeBron with 3 point shooters worked because it openned up LeBron's drive and LeBron had the court vision to find the 3 point shooter who's man had left to his man to provide interior help defense.

Don't ask Moses to shoot 3's but do give him 3 point shooters to keep help defenders away from him. Don't ask Moses to find the open 3 point shooters. Moses just needs to find Robert Reid and Robert Reid will find thevopen 3 point shooters. 1981 Moses had Dunleavy who could hit a 3 but the coaches at that time did not believe in 3 point shooting. They did like Calvin Murphy shooting 18 footers. Henderson was not a shooter, he just handled the ball. Paultz range stopped at the freethrow line. Willoughby may have been the greatest leaper ever but he could not shoot. Reid could hit mid range. That team was only mediocre at openning up space for Moses to work with.

That's fair. I just wanted to demonstrate Moses had enough versatility to provide spacing too, if necessary.
Though 70sfan also already mentioned that, since Moses developed a decent midrange game in reality too.

In case some people think he's like a Ben Simmons or a mini-Shaq.

frica wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

frica wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if he could have been a good (or excellent) 3pt spot up shooter with practice.
.

There is no point to even asking Mosees to practice a 3 point shot.
I don't think he would get better than 30% on threes if he worked at it and he was so good inside that I don't see the point in him shooting 3s even if he shot them well. The current NBA is full of 3 point shooters.

Rick Pitino's Knicks shot twice as many 3s as the other NBA teams and his motive was to get help defenders away from Patrick Ewing. Then Rudy T's Rockets shot a lot more 3s than the rest of the NBA and again the point was to get the help defenders away from Hakeem. Surrounding LeBron with 3 point shooters worked because it openned up LeBron's drive and LeBron had the court vision to find the 3 point shooter who's man had left to his man to provide interior help defense.

Don't ask Moses to shoot 3's but do give him 3 point shooters to keep help defenders away from him. Don't ask Moses to find the open 3 point shooters. Moses just needs to find Robert Reid and Robert Reid will find thevopen 3 point shooters. 1981 Moses had Dunleavy who could hit a 3 but the coaches at that time did not believe in 3 point shooting. They did like Calvin Murphy shooting 18 footers. Henderson was not a shooter, he just handled the ball. Paultz range stopped at the freethrow line. Willoughby may have been the greatest leaper ever but he could not shoot. Reid could hit mid range. That team was only mediocre at openning up space for Moses to work with.

That's fair. I just wanted to demonstrate Moses had enough versatility to provide spacing too, if necessary.
Though 70sfan also already mentioned that, since Moses developed a decent midrange game in reality too.

In case some people think he's like a Ben Simmons or a mini-Shaq.

I don't think Moses would shoot threes, but you are right - Moses used his midrange shot much more often than people believe. He's not mini-Shaq at all.

He'd be well behind Jokic and Embiid. They're both bigger and far more talented.

frica wrote:

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:

frica wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if he could have been a good (or excellent) 3pt spot up shooter with practice.
.

There is no point to even asking Mosees to practice a 3 point shot.
I don't think he would get better than 30% on threes if he worked at it and he was so good inside that I don't see the point in him shooting 3s even if he shot them well. The current NBA is full of 3 point shooters.

Rick Pitino's Knicks shot twice as many 3s as the other NBA teams and his motive was to get help defenders away from Patrick Ewing. Then Rudy T's Rockets shot a lot more 3s than the rest of the NBA and again the point was to get the help defenders away from Hakeem. Surrounding LeBron with 3 point shooters worked because it openned up LeBron's drive and LeBron had the court vision to find the 3 point shooter who's man had left to his man to provide interior help defense.

Don't ask Moses to shoot 3's but do give him 3 point shooters to keep help defenders away from him. Don't ask Moses to find the open 3 point shooters. Moses just needs to find Robert Reid and Robert Reid will find thevopen 3 point shooters. 1981 Moses had Dunleavy who could hit a 3 but the coaches at that time did not believe in 3 point shooting. They did like Calvin Murphy shooting 18 footers. Henderson was not a shooter, he just handled the ball. Paultz range stopped at the freethrow line. Willoughby may have been the greatest leaper ever but he could not shoot. Reid could hit mid range. That team was only mediocre at openning up space for Moses to work with.

That's fair. I just wanted to demonstrate Moses had enough versatility to provide spacing too, if necessary.
Though 70sfan also already mentioned that, since Moses developed a decent midrange game in reality too.

In case some people think he's like a Ben Simmons or a mini-Shaq.

A data point that he could develop a solid shot is his FT%. There aren't many guys who hit 75-80% who don't have a decent jumper with 80s training. With today's training I expect better on that fron

Laimbeer wrote:He'd be well behind Jokic and Embiid. They're both bigger and far more talented.

Talent isn't everything. If Embiid has half of the motor and dedication Moses had, he'd be the best player in the league by far.

70sFan wrote:

Laimbeer wrote:He'd be well behind Jokic and Embiid. They're both bigger and far more talented.

Talent isn't everything. If Embiid has half of the motor and dedication Moses had, he'd be the best player in the league by far.

Embiid is extremely dedicated, especially since 2019.

Colbinii wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Laimbeer wrote:He'd be well behind Jokic and Embiid. They're both bigger and far more talented.

Talent isn't everything. If Embiid has half of the motor and dedication Moses had, he'd be the best player in the league by far.

Embiid is extremely dedicated, especially since 2019.

Maybe wrong choice of the words, but Embiid has moments when you can see he doesn't care about the game. Moses didn't have these moments often, at least not in his prime.

70sFan wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

70sFan wrote:Talent isn't everything. If Embiid has half of the motor and dedication Moses had, he'd be the best player in the league by far.

Embiid is extremely dedicated, especially since 2019.

Maybe wrong choice of the words, but Embiid has moments when you can see he doesn't care about the game. Moses didn't have these moments often, at least not in his prime.

which moments are those?

falcolombardi wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Colbinii wrote:
Embiid is extremely dedicated, especially since 2019.

Maybe wrong choice of the words, but Embiid has moments when you can see he doesn't care about the game. Moses didn't have these moments often, at least not in his prime.

which moments are those?

Games like the last one vs Celtics. Not only he shot poorly but he basically stopped trying.

70sFan wrote:

falcolombardi wrote:

70sFan wrote:Maybe wrong choice of the words, but Embiid has moments when you can see he doesn't care about the game. Moses didn't have these moments often, at least not in his prime.

which moments are those?

Games like the last one vs Celtics. Not only he shot poorly but he basically stopped trying.

seems a bit nitpicky? is a regular season game that was already lost

i get the criticism, but doesnt seem like a huge deal all thinghs considered