Lebron James vs Paul Pierce/Kevin Garnett

[Matt15]

Who would you rather build a team around?

[Colbinii]

Pierce and Garnett for me. He is a good enough scorer and creator on the perimeter to compliment Garnetts GOAT level play as a defender and offensive contributor.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Just saying, if you consider cap, you get an extra max slot with Lebron. I don't know if you wanted us to consider the financial implications behind this hypothetical.

[70sFan]

Garnett himself is top 15 player ever at worst, I don't think James is better enough than this level of player to put him even ahead the combo of top 15 + top 40 players, unless the top 15 player has a weak longevity (which is not the case with KG).

[fjd0913]

Why is it Lebron by himself vs a pairing? Wouldn't that just mean we're free to choose any secondary piece and any sort of roster to surround him with? That seems more flexible than a KG/Pierce package deal.

[70sFan]

Why is it Lebron by himself vs a pairing? Wouldn't that just mean we're free to choose any secondary piece and any sort of roster to surround him with? That seems more flexible than a KG/Pierce package deal.

What's the odd to get top 40 player ever for around decade next to LeBron? James has been in the league forever and he almost never played with better players than prime Pierce (like 3 seasons with Wade and one full season of Davis).

[falcolombardi]

superstar + star > superstar alone even if lebron is better than garnett (he is but i dont think is a insane gap)

if i get someone like mike conley or marc gasol alongside Bron i may prefer that duo instead but it would be really close

[HeartBreakKid]

Why is it Lebron by himself vs a pairing? Wouldn't that just mean we're free to choose any secondary piece and any sort of roster to surround him with? That seems more flexible than a KG/Pierce package deal.

More flexible? How easy do you think it is to get a player better than Paul Pierce?

[fjd0913]

Why is it Lebron by himself vs a pairing? Wouldn't that just mean we're free to choose any secondary piece and any sort of roster to surround him with? That seems more flexible than a KG/Pierce package deal.

What's the odd to get top 40 player ever for around decade next to LeBron? James has been in the league forever and he almost never played with better players than prime Pierce (like 3 seasons with Wade and one full season of Davis).

More flexible? How easy do you think it is to get a player better than Paul Pierce?

I must have misunderstood the question then. I thought we could pick and choose any random players from any era we like out of a buffet or something. In that case, I'd take KG/Pierce since it's already a guaranteed deal. But even then, most ATGs have played with a player as good as or better than Pierce for an extended time, and we're also in an era where top players are more likely to band up or force trades. As long as Lebron isn't getting drafted to a small market with an incompetent front office again, it's not that unlikely he gets someone as good Pierce.

[HeartBreakKid]

Why is it Lebron by himself vs a pairing? Wouldn't that just mean we're free to choose any secondary piece and any sort of roster to surround him with? That seems more flexible than a KG/Pierce package deal.

What's the odd to get top 40 player ever for around decade next to LeBron? James has been in the league forever and he almost never played with better players than prime Pierce (like 3 seasons with Wade and one full season of Davis).

More flexible? How easy do you think it is to get a player better than Paul Pierce?

I must have misunderstood the question then. I thought we could pick and choose any random players from any era we like out of a buffet or something. In that case, I'd take KG/Pierce since it's already a guaranteed deal. But even then, most ATGs have played with a player as good as or better than Pierce for an extended time, and we're also in an era where top players are more likely to band up or force trades. As long as Lebron isn't getting drafted to a small market with an incompetent front office again, it's not that unlikely he gets someone as good Pierce.

Most ATG's also go several years without anyone as good as Pierce, or even anyone very good in general. Sure, eventually, James will get a good player - but presumably he'll spend a good chunk of his career without anyone to write home about.

[No-more-rings]

Idk i mean these are hard to answer without knowing how long you’ll keep these guys. In Lebron’s case he played with a ton of talent and has 4 rings, at least this far. Does a Garnett/Pierce core get 4+ rings in any random era? It’s hard to answer without knowing anything else. KG+Pierce obviously has more combined impact, but I’m not sure if that’s how to look at it.

[falcolombardi]

Idk i mean these are hard to answer without knowing how long you’ll keep these guys. In Lebron’s case he played with a ton of talent and has 4 rings, at least this far. Does a Garnett/Pierce core get 4+ rings in any random era? It’s hard to answer without knowing anything else. KG+Pierce obviously has more combined impact, but I’m not sure if that’s how to look at it.

i think the idea is garnett and pierce being drafted to the same team and remaining there their whole careers or until their late years

[dygaction]

Why is it Lebron by himself vs a pairing? Wouldn't that just mean we're free to choose any secondary piece and any sort of roster to surround him with? That seems more flexible than a KG/Pierce package deal.

More flexible? How easy do you think it is to get a player better than Paul Pierce?

Does not have to be better than Peirce. LeBron and anther all star player, like Kyle Lowry or Kyrie Irving, give you higher floor and higher ceiling.

[dygaction]

Idk i mean these are hard to answer without knowing how long you’ll keep these guys. In Lebron’s case he played with a ton of talent and has 4 rings, at least this far. Does a Garnett/Pierce core get 4+ rings in any random era? It’s hard to answer without knowing anything else. KG+Pierce obviously has more combined impact, but I’m not sure if that’s how to look at it.

i think the idea is garnett and pierce being drafted to the same team and remaining there their whole careers or until their late years

If we assume both of them develop to the players they were, they would both demand super max. You will have to consider LeBron plus another max player. He has demonstrated the ability to attract top players for you to build a team around, so I will still go with LeBron + a max player.

[Cavsfansince84]

Well, in a vacuum I think that PP+KG is more of an automatic contender than just LeBron is. The factor of management and team composition is a rather large factor here though. Even with the 08-12 Celtics, where we had post prime versions of them they also had a great supporting cast which has to be appreciated. Its not a given that they would have those kinds of role players supporting them anywhere or even close to it. This sort of comparison would make more sense if you slotted in someone as LeBron's #2.

[dygaction]

Well, in a vacuum I think that PP+KG is more of an automatic contender than just LeBron is. The factor of management and team composition is a rather large factor here though. Even with the 08-12 Celtics, where we had post prime versions of them they also had a great supporting cast which has to be appreciated. Its not a given that they would have those kinds of role players supporting them anywhere or even close to it. This sort of comparison would make more sense if you slotted in someone as LeBron's #2.

How about
KG + PP vs. LeBron + one of (Kyle Lowry/CJ/Middleton/Bam/Love)

[Cavsfansince84]

Well, in a vacuum I think that PP+KG is more of an automatic contender than just LeBron is. The factor of management and team composition is a rather large factor here though. Even with the 08-12 Celtics, where we had post prime versions of them they also had a great supporting cast which has to be appreciated. Its not a given that they would have those kinds of role players supporting them anywhere or even close to it. This sort of comparison would make more sense if you slotted in someone as LeBron's #2.

How about
KG + PP vs. LeBron + one of (Kyle Lowry/CJ/Middleton/Bam/Love)

Something like that would be better imo.

[falcolombardi]

Idk i mean these are hard to answer without knowing how long you’ll keep these guys. In Lebron’s case he played with a ton of talent and has 4 rings, at least this far. Does a Garnett/Pierce core get 4+ rings in any random era? It’s hard to answer without knowing anything else. KG+Pierce obviously has more combined impact, but I’m not sure if that’s how to look at it.

i think the idea is garnett and pierce being drafted to the same team and remaining there their whole careers or until their late years

If we assume both of them develop to the players they were, they would both demand super max. You will have to consider LeBron plus another max player. He has demonstrated the ability to attract top players for you to build a team around, so I will still go with LeBron + a max player.

if we consider lebron prime to be 2009-2020 then he only played with a player in Pierce level or higher 3 of those years, 2020/2012/2011 since wade declined with injuries by the end of 2013 season

is not that easy to get a second option of paul Pierce caliber

[SeniorWalker]

If I can force LeBron to stay with one franchise for the majority of his career and its not Cleveland, I think I take him.
LeBron with a second legitimate star is going to the finals with a decent chance to win every year.

PP/KG you could argue too, I just see LeBron plus any real #2 as having a higher ceiling.

Edit: I kind of ignored the premise. Getting a second star seems easier now than ever but if it's not guaranteed then I roll with PP/KG

[HeartBreakKid]

I think you guys are greatly over estimating the gap between Paul Pierce and guys like Middleton, Lowry etc. It's not a surprise that Maverick dude intentionally picked guys who won recent championships, they have strong recent narratives baked into their minds as winners. There would be plenty of years where people would crap on Lowry for not helping Lebron - and Kyrie Irving? ...because he's been doing so well with stacked teams.

And what can be a higher ceiling than getting championships? Garnett was only in his prime with Paul Pierce for one season. When they were old they were still contending, and yes they did have other players in 2010-2012- which isn't making up in value for prime Garnett and prime Pierce.


Pretty easy way to scale it -

Is Paul Pierce better than Sam Cassell?

Is Sam Cassell + Kevin Garnett enough to be a serious contender?

The answer to both of those are yes (if you think they weren't in 2004, then you do not know enough about that season)

Garnett and Pierce playing together, even if the rest of the roster was flawed would still be contenders if not conference favorites every year.

Even a combo like Paul+Griffin with terrible depth were considered underachievers in a killer conference because they were in a vacuum seen as pretty dang good (and they're still worse than Garnett+Pierce). You guys think CJ (as in CJ MCollumn?!) is going to do that? What if in this scenario Lebron was sent to the stronger conference, how on earth would having Kevin Love as his 2nd guy do anything? You guys are greatly overestimating how unreliable Lebron's 2nd options would be, in the past he has had a big 3 to at least make up for it - if it's a 1+2 punch, having an unreliable 2nd option would be death for him. Big difference between Column, Lowry, Irving and say - Anthony Davis.

We don't know in this scenario if either pair will be a big 3. So I can see MANY scenarios where people are like, Lebron needs help - he only has CJ Mcolum as his guy.

The gap between Paul Pierce and just a normal all-star, non top 100 player is easily bigger than Kevin Garnett and Lebron James. I almost feel like people do not know the gap between superstars (in a vacuum it's small, it's just over-analyzed for ranking separation, the average NBA player are peons compared to them).


If we remove romanticism, how is this even debatable? Yes, Lebron's team would have a higher ceiling but that isn't the question, as everyone agrees Lebron is better than Garnett. The odds would not be in Lebron's favor. His team would be more volatile. If you have the option of a contending core that is volatile vs one that is not, why would you take the latter?

And to the rebuttal that Lebron won 4 titles. Lebron is not a team, despite popular belief. If Lebron stayed in Cleveland from the start, he would likely not have 4 titles. Hence why he left. (twice )