RealGM

Who's it? Who's in the top 5?

peak russel westbrook has to be up there

Westbrook
Alonzo
Howard
Melo
Marbury
.

How are we defining a low IQ player? Relative to other all time greats or are they literally a "dumb" player?

Here's a question. Does Allen Iverson belongs in this conversation?

Surely Kyrie is up there. Wildly talented but only really adds value a scorer in specific circumstances.

Moses was the first player to come to mind. Didn't talk intelligently or play with a high BBIQ but just outworked everyone else during his prime.

penbeast0 wrote:Moses was the first player to come to mind. Didn't talk intelligently or play with a high BBIQ but just outworked everyone else during his prime.

Unlike the rest of mentions here, Moses knew his strengths and worked extremely high to make the best work out of them. He wasn't Jokic out there, but despite lack of physical tools he remained impactful throughout his career mostly because he could outwork, but also outsmart opponents. I mean, you have to be quite smart to do things Moses did on regular basis - he was among the best floppers I've ever seen, he drew fouls better than any bigman I've seen and of course there are his rebounding ability. His off-ball movement was also more sophisticated than most high scoring centers. I think that Moses IQ helped him to be decent defender at his peak, despite lacking in terms of physical talent.

All in all, I don't find Moses stupid player at all.

Not that his IQ is low necessarily but i tend to think Kobe's may be the lowest for someone who's a consensus top 15 goat.

SUPERVILLAIN wrote:Who's it? Who's in the top 5?

So, I'm taking this to mean "Players who dominated based on physical talent without any obvious advantage mentally over other stars".

And that immediately makes me think of big men. Wilt Chamberlain & Shaquille O'Neal being the guys at the top of the list for me.

To be clear, people who really can't process what's going on around them at all don't thrive in the NBA, so with guys like Wilt & Shaq, we're not talking about them being egregiously slow mentally, just that they don't have an obvious savvy advantage.

SUPERVILLAIN wrote:Here's a question. Does Allen Iverson belongs in this conversation?

Sure, but he wouldn't be all that high on the "best" list.

70sFan wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:Moses was the first player to come to mind. Didn't talk intelligently or play with a high BBIQ but just outworked everyone else during his prime.

Unlike the rest of mentions here, Moses knew his strengths and worked extremely high to make the best work out of them. He wasn't Jokic out there, but despite lack of physical tools he remained impactful throughout his career mostly because he could outwork, but also outsmart opponents. I mean, you have to be quite smart to do things Moses did on regular basis - he was among the best floppers I've ever seen, he drew fouls better than any bigman I've seen and of course there are his rebounding ability. His off-ball movement was also more sophisticated than most high scoring centers. I think that Moses IQ helped him to be decent defender at his peak, despite lacking in terms of physical talent.

All in all, I don't find Moses stupid player at all.

I don't think I agree. I was never particularly impressed with his off-ball movement, though he wasn't a stationary post player like some centers were. I have him as low BBIQ because I didn't seem him improve parts of his game over time to nearly the degree that most greats do. As Moses aged, his shooting percentages dropped, but his game didn't change. He didn't add an outside game, he never learned to pass, he still remained the prototypical big dependent on his strength and leaping ability, only without the great leaping ability anymore. That said, he was still one of the hardest working, highest motor bigs even after his game deteriorated and that's what kept him great.

Darryl Dawkins

No-more-rings wrote:Not that his IQ is low necessarily but i tend to think Kobe's may be the lowest for someone who's a consensus top 15 goat.

I don't think it's any lower than guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, or even Jordan. What may seem like lower IQ compared to them, was more so physical limitations (comparatively) and stubbornness when he didn't have the best teams.

penbeast0 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:Moses was the first player to come to mind. Didn't talk intelligently or play with a high BBIQ but just outworked everyone else during his prime.

Unlike the rest of mentions here, Moses knew his strengths and worked extremely high to make the best work out of them. He wasn't Jokic out there, but despite lack of physical tools he remained impactful throughout his career mostly because he could outwork, but also outsmart opponents. I mean, you have to be quite smart to do things Moses did on regular basis - he was among the best floppers I've ever seen, he drew fouls better than any bigman I've seen and of course there are his rebounding ability. His off-ball movement was also more sophisticated than most high scoring centers. I think that Moses IQ helped him to be decent defender at his peak, despite lacking in terms of physical talent.

All in all, I don't find Moses stupid player at all.

I don't think I agree. I was never particularly impressed with his off-ball movement, though he wasn't a stationary post player like some centers were. I have him as low BBIQ because I didn't seem him improve parts of his game over time to nearly the degree that most greats do. As Moses aged, his shooting percentages dropped, but his game didn't change. He didn't add an outside game, he never learned to pass, he still remained the prototypical big dependent on his strength and leaping ability, only without the great leaping ability anymore. That said, he was still one of the hardest working, highest motor bigs even after his game deteriorated and that's what kept him great.

I find him to be among the best high volume post up centers ever in terms of off-ball movement. Only savants like Kareem or Shaq would rank higher than him in that aspect. Maybe Duncan as well, though it's much closer. I'd definitely take him over Hakeem in that regard.

Moses did change his style quite a bit though. His FG% dropped because he started to use midrange game a lot more than ever before. In mid-80s, Moses took far more outside shots than he did in the early 1980s. He also became slightly better FT shooter (around 80% FT shooter in 1985-90 compared to 75% in 1979-84). His overall scoring efficiency also didn't become worse either.

I also think that labeling Moses as a big "dependent on his strength and leaping ability" isn't fair either. In the end, this guy was extremely skilled scorer and had a lot of value in other areas despite limited physical gifts (Moses was never a good leaper by the way, unless you meant quick jumping ability).

magicman1978 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Not that his IQ is low necessarily but i tend to think Kobe's may be the lowest for someone who's a consensus top 15 goat.

I don't think it's any lower than guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, or even Jordan. What may seem like lower IQ compared to them, was more so physical limitations (comparatively) and stubbornness when he didn't have the best teams.

I think the question of stubbornness and teachabllity is hard to separate from intelligence in practice.

My impression is that Kobe had the ability to learn very quickly - particularly physical skills - when he saw the value in them, but he had a particularly closed mind that led him to play less optimally than he could have. Two factors in opposite directions. Up to each of us to decide how to weigh them, but the latter is a really. If deal whenever we talk about any great player doing dumb things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Doctor MJ wrote:

magicman1978 wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Not that his IQ is low necessarily but i tend to think Kobe's may be the lowest for someone who's a consensus top 15 goat.

I don't think it's any lower than guys like Hakeem, Wilt, Shaq, or even Jordan. What may seem like lower IQ compared to them, was more so physical limitations (comparatively) and stubbornness when he didn't have the best teams.

I think the question of stubbornness and teachabllity is hard to separate from intelligence in practice.

My impression is that Kobe had the ability to learn very quickly - particularly physical skills - when he saw the value in them, but he had a particularly closed mind that led him to play less optimally than he could have. Two factors in opposite directions. Up to each of us to decide how to weigh them, but the latter is a really. If deal whenever we talk about any great player doing dumb things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're r.e.t.a.r.d.e.d. Kobe was one of the smartest players in the league. That's why he ended up as a top ten player of all time despite very average athletic gifts.

Mike Krzyzewski on coaching Kobe and LeBron: “I had two of the smartest players to ever play any sport”

I'm sure your dumbass knows more than Coach K tho

--Personal attacks, not allowed on this board Stepbracter, PW--

For lists like this you really need to segregate by position/player type. The talent pool for PG is far larger than the talent pool for C and the duties of managing an offense as a guard does is more demanding than the challenges of managing a defense as many bigs do.

I don't think you can answer this question for players who were before your time. You really need to see a guy play 50 gms minimum to evaluate this. Accordingly recency bias has definitely factored into the list.

Also note, if I put a player on this list it doesn't mean I'm calling them dumb people. As an example, KG, not saying he is stupid, had a far higher basketball IQ than Webber but I'm fairly certain Webber was more cognitively gifted.

Cut off for this list is multiple All NBA teams and at least 1-2 seasons of serious MVP consideration

C: Dwight Howard: there was a 2-3 year stretch he was the dominant force on a legitimate title contender. His offensive understanding was nil. He was probably the worst passing offensively positive player I remember seeing. Nor was his defense especially cerebral. The second his physical skills slightly diminshed he showed a real ability to adapt his game to any significant way. And mostly just played around other people. He only had an end of career resurgance were he was allowed to play 15-20 mpg just doing his thing.
PF: Durant: Dirk was my 2nd choice. We tend to think of low IQ players as being low skilled. I don't quite understand it. You can develop a great skill-set without much understanding of the game. Durant is an excellent player but he more or less plays the same way on every team and hasn't show much ability to adjust.
PG: Westbrook. observing Westbrook I never got the sense he had great understanding of the intricies of basketball. What he had was a HOF motor, extreme stamina, will to win and athleticism. He was a major contributor to a team that seriously contended for championships for a half decade.

Still thinking about my SF/SG picks

Demarcus Cousins comes to mind. Amazing player, had a ton of things together, but was always a low IQ kind of guy. He still had so much talent that he put up the numbers to be an all star. I think on another team in another situation he could've been a legend of the game.

You can't be a good player if you at least don't understand your limitations.

___
Sent from my Nokia 3210 using RealGM mobile app