Who might make an all-defensive team, Doncic or Jokic?

[dygaction]

Both have shown big progress, but the perception is difficult to change.
If it is possible at all, who do you think can make an all-defensive team appearance? Does not have to be this year.

[70sFan]

I don't see any reason why Doncic should be in conversation. Am I missing something?

[dygaction]

I don't see any reason why Doncic should be in conversation. Am I missing something?

Dont understand your question. was there not an option for you among the four?

[70sFan]

I don't see any reason why Doncic should be in conversation. Am I missing something?

Dont understand your question. was there not an option for you among the four?

I mean, is there any reason to even consider Luka as an all-defensive team candidate?

[No-more-rings]

I don't think either should make it, but at least Jokic getting there wouldn't seem that crazy. Luka on the other hand resembles nothing of an all league defender.

[durantbird]

I don't think either should make it, but at least Jokic getting there wouldn't seem that crazy. Luka on the other hand resembles nothing of an all league defender.

OP talks about any point in future time

[70sFan]

I don't think either should make it, but at least Jokic getting there wouldn't seem that crazy. Luka on the other hand resembles nothing of an all league defender.

OP talks about any point in future time

Do you see Doncic showing potential for that? I think his absolute ceilling would be peak defensive version of Magic Johnson with less activity but stronger post defense.

[dygaction]

I don't see any reason why Doncic should be in conversation. Am I missing something?

Dont understand your question. was there not an option for you among the four?

I mean, is there any reason to even consider Luka as an all-defensive team candidate?

Most likely they are two top 10 (if not top 5) players in the many years to come, and both are constantly bashed/blamed for their defense.
If you read my question, it was regarding who has the potential "might, does not have to be this year"... Both are positive defender now. Jokic could be ahead out of these two in impact but it is more difficult for a center to get all-defense than a guard due to position competition. I mean, if you don't think Luka will ever make it, there are two options - "Jokic" and "Neither"...

[Texas Chuck]

I mean Luka probably has a better shot simply because of less competition. Gobert/Embiid alone make it very difficult for Jokic to make a team until they age out and then Mobley might well be dominating.

Luka competing against guards is easier. Doesn't seem likely a guy with his offensive load is ever going to be truly deserving of being one of the 4 best defensive guards. But we also know voters love to give these awards to offensive stars who even try a little on that end so who know.

[Fadeaway_J]

I mean Luka probably has a better shot simply because of less competition. Gobert/Embiid alone make it very difficult for Jokic to make a team until they age out and then Mobley might well be dominating.

Luka competing against guards is easier. Doesn't seem likely a guy with his offensive load is ever going to be truly deserving of being one of the 4 best defensive guards. But we also know voters love to give these awards to offensive stars who even try a little on that end so who know.

I don't know, those guys usually develop a rep beforehand which persists after their load increases and they're no longer providing that kind of defensive value night-to-night. Hard to see a narrative like that developing for Luka.

With Jokic, I could see a scenario where the Nuggets put more defensive talent around him, his advanced stats continue to look better than his rep, the Nuggets are an elite defensive team, and he gets some buzz based on all that. As you say though, the competition is much tougher at his position.

I guess I just wasted a lot of words to arrive at "neither". Jokic a tad more likely I suppose.

[McBubbles]

I voted for Jokic but he is a doughy white European, which is basically 3 strikes for the eye test on defence lol. Although I guess if Marc Gasol got it (less doughy though) he could too.

[dygaction]

Luka's defensive win shares are #3 and DBPM is #4 (behind Thybulle, CP3, and Smart) among all guards. Mavs defensive rating is #5 among 30 teams. Not like Mavs have a Gobert level player to anchor the defense. Someone acts as if it is a ridiculous question to ask. Just like Jokic has been #1 in DBPM and #3 in DWS among all players, and had multiple game winning blocks, but he looks cannot jump...

[Dr Positivity]

Doncic as he is fairly young. Jokic has improved but I have a hard time seeing getting picked as one of the two best defensive centers.

[No-more-rings]

I voted for Jokic but he is a doughy white European, which is basically 3 strikes for the eye test on defence lol. Although I guess if Marc Gasol got it (less doughy though) he could too.

What’s the point of saying they’re white and european though? I don’t see anyone saying something like “Embiid is a pudgy African” or something. I always call out when players are fat or they look like an oaf but I don’t get why it matters what country they’re from lol.

[giberish]

Jokic is a significantly better defender right now.

If All-D teams ignored position, there would be a solid case for him this season. But All-D teams only have one center each which makes it far tougher for a C to make them.

[McBubbles]

I voted for Jokic but he is a doughy white European, which is basically 3 strikes for the eye test on defence lol. Although I guess if Marc Gasol got it (less doughy though) he could too.

What’s the point of saying they’re white and european though? I don’t see anyone saying something like “Embiid is a pudgy African” or something. I always call out when players are fat or they look like an oaf but I don’t get why it matters what country they’re from lol.

Racial prejudice, especially towards non-black players is huge. I've never heard Jeremy Lin or Alex Caruso called athletic once in my life, only ever "sneaky quick" or "low-key bouncy" or some dumb **** like that. That and the general stigma of Europeans being soft, although admittedly I do think that's starting to change if not reverse now actually, so I rescind that part.

Being white / not black definitely negatively affects your perception as an athlete though, and thus as an overall defender.

[70sFan]

Luka's defensive win shares are #3 and DBPM is #4 (behind Thybulle, CP3, and Smart) among all guards. Mavs defensive rating is #5 among 30 teams. Not like Mavs have a Gobert level player to anchor the defense. Someone acts as if it is a ridiculous question to ask. Just like Jokic has been #1 in DBPM and #3 in DWS among all players, and had multiple game winning blocks, but he looks cannot jump...

Mavs are also slightly better defensively without Doncic on the court. I doesn't mean that Luka is negative (they are still good with him on the court), but it seems that he's not the one responsible for Dallas defense. Which makes sense, given his massive offensive load and unspectacular tracking data.

[dygaction]

Luka's defensive win shares are #3 and DBPM is #4 (behind Thybulle, CP3, and Smart) among all guards. Mavs defensive rating is #5 among 30 teams. Not like Mavs have a Gobert level player to anchor the defense. Someone acts as if it is a ridiculous question to ask. Just like Jokic has been #1 in DBPM and #3 in DWS among all players, and had multiple game winning blocks, but he looks cannot jump...

Mavs are also slightly better defensively without Doncic on the court. I doesn't mean that Luka is negative (they are still good with him on the court), but it seems that he's not the one responsible for Dallas defense. Which makes sense, given his massive offensive load and unspectacular tracking data.

You can post things support your claim. If Mavs were slightly better in a 13 min span during Luka rest, it is impossible due to the opponent team rest their best players, and that certainly contribute more to the overall elite defense than the 35 min Luka played.
Luka's current defense is not great but is more "good" than "neutral". Top 2 among Mavs players who play non garbage times in DRTG, DWS, and DBPM. He is 22 and improving every season on defense. There are plenty of time to improve or he may even have a few seasons to focus on defense when he gets a legit 2nd star, just like Wilt decided to get an assist leader after getting tired of scoring titles.

[70sFan]

Luka's defensive win shares are #3 and DBPM is #4 (behind Thybulle, CP3, and Smart) among all guards. Mavs defensive rating is #5 among 30 teams. Not like Mavs have a Gobert level player to anchor the defense. Someone acts as if it is a ridiculous question to ask. Just like Jokic has been #1 in DBPM and #3 in DWS among all players, and had multiple game winning blocks, but he looks cannot jump...

Mavs are also slightly better defensively without Doncic on the court. I doesn't mean that Luka is negative (they are still good with him on the court), but it seems that he's not the one responsible for Dallas defense. Which makes sense, given his massive offensive load and unspectacular tracking data.

You can post things support your claim. If Mavs were slightly better in a 13 min span during Luka rest, it is impossible due to the opponent team rest their best players, and that certainly contribute more to the overall elite defense than the 35 min Luka played.
Luka's current defense is not great but is more "good" than "neutral". Top 2 among Mavs players who play non garbage times in DRTG, DWS, and DBPM. He is 22 and improving every season on defense. There are plenty of time to improve or he may even have a few seasons to focus on defense when he gets a legit 2nd star, just like Wilt decided to get an assist leader after getting tired of scoring titles.

We'll wait for full season RAPM and other impact metrics to see how much it is about lineups, but for now it's on your side to show that Doncic has big impact on Dallas defense. You mentioned only boxscore numbers who are highly related to defensive rebounds and we know that guards getting rebounds isn't correlated to defensive impact.

About focusing on defense - do you have any reasons to believe that Doncic has all-defensive potential? Have you ever seen him playing that way? Do you think he has physical and mental tools to do that? A lot of people believe that defense is all about effort, but it's not true. Defense requires specific ability to read game on the fly (often unrelated to offensive vision) and certain physical tools. Luka could prove me wrong, but I see nothing from him that would suggest he has high defensive potential hidden by his offensive role.

Your analogy with Wilt doesn't work, because Chamberlain showed capability of being excellent post hub way before 1967. He showed potential even in college as a very raw player.

[Jaivl]

I voted for Jokic but he is a doughy white European, which is basically 3 strikes for the eye test on defence lol. Although I guess if Marc Gasol got it (less doughy though) he could too.

What’s the point of saying they’re white and european though? I don’t see anyone saying something like “Embiid is a pudgy African” or something. I always call out when players are fat or they look like an oaf but I don’t get why it matters what country they’re from lol.

Racial prejudice, especially towards non-black players is huge. I've never heard Jeremy Lin or Alex Caruso called athletic once in my life, only ever "sneaky quick" or "low-key bouncy" or some dumb **** like that. That and the general stigma of Europeans being soft, although admittedly I do think that's starting to change if not reverse now actually, so I rescind that part.

Being white / not black definitely negatively affects your perception as an athlete though, and thus as an overall defender.

Watch on YouTube