Bill Walton vs Joel Embiid - skills discussion

[70sFan]

A few days ago I had intense discussion on the General Board about Joel Embiid vs Bill Walton in terms of who was/is more skilled basketball player. Other than I was called delusional biased fool, I think that it opened interesting discussion about the definition of basketball skills.

Who do you think is more skilled basketball player and how close do you see it? I think that Embiid's scoring repertoire is much superior and his shooting touch is way ahead, but Walton basically has the edge at everything else. I think it's very close, but again a lot of people think I force pro oldschool narrative.

What do you think?

[Statlanta]

Embiid sacrificed his defense for his scoring repertoire.

Walton was a better passer and a better defender at peak(probably couldn't defend in space but didn't need to)

[70sFan]

Embiid sacrificed his defense for his scoring repertoire.

Walton was a better passer and a better defender at peak(probably couldn't defend in space but didn't need to)

I think that Walton could defend in space just fine, as long as his legs wouldn't let down. He wasn't Bill Russell in terms of mobility, but he was athletic and very long. On top of that, he had very underrated footwork and excellent timing.

To be honest, I think Walton is better suited defensively to modern era than Embiid.

[Hussien Fatal]

Embiid sacrificed his defense for his scoring repertoire.

Walton was a better passer and a better defender at peak(probably couldn't defend in space but didn't need to)

lol Joel is still absolutely ELITE on the defensive end. Not sure why you think his defense has fallen off. He changes the game on both ends.

[70sFan]

Embiid sacrificed his defense for his scoring repertoire.

Walton was a better passer and a better defender at peak(probably couldn't defend in space but didn't need to)

lol Joel is still absolutely ELITE on the defensive end. Not sure why you think his defense has fallen off. He changes the game on both ends.

He was elite a few years ago, but now with increased offensive load I think I'd agree that his defensive effort isn't on that level anymore. He's still very good of course, but I'm not sure I'd call him elite.

About changing the game - it seems that Embiid doesn't have the same impact on his team defense that some other centers in the league have.

[penbeast0]

Just remember that you can be delusional, biased, a fool, and still be right.

Walton seems more fundamentally solid for his day (4 years of college under John Wooden so not a surprise); Embiid's skillset seems more versatile (more wing type skills which weren't taught to big men back then). I would also say Embiid seems longer and a bit quicker than Walton was.

[70sFan]

Just remember that you can be delusional, biased, a fool, and still be right.

Walton seems more fundamentally solid for his day (4 years of college under John Wooden so not a surprise); Embiid's skillset seems more versatile (more wing type skills which weren't taught to big men back then). I would also say Embiid seems longer and a bit quicker than Walton was.

I'd say that Walton is more fundamentally sound for any era, especially when you look at them on defensive end. I agree that Embiid has perimeter skills that Walton would never reach.

[Colbinii]

I think players in todays NBA tends to be more skilled in an absolute vacuum when compared to previous era's, in large part due to the requirements to be a great basketball player in todays league compared to former years is simply different.

I think Walton is a significantly better defender era vs era, he was a better passer era vs era and he knew and understood the concrete cornerstones of winning basketball more than just about any in NBA History [Hello Bill Russell].

Bringing this back to more skilled? I tend to favor Embiid on the offensive end because he is one of the most skilled offensive bigs we have seen, especially as a scorer. Defensively I would say the gap is just as large in favor of Walton.

I am in need of seeing Embiid's offense truly flourish in the post-season a-la Durant or others where their repoire is so massive they can't be stopped, only slowed or hindered.

[70sFan]

I think players in todays NBA tends to be more skilled in an absolute vacuum when compared to previous era's, in large part due to the requirements to be a great basketball player in todays league compared to former years is simply different.

I think Walton is a significantly better defender era vs era, he was a better passer era vs era and he knew and understood the concrete cornerstones of winning basketball more than just about any in NBA History [Hello Bill Russell].

Bringing this back to more skilled? I tend to favor Embiid on the offensive end because he is one of the most skilled offensive bigs we have seen, especially as a scorer. Defensively I would say the gap is just as large in favor of Walton.

I am in need of seeing Embiid's offense truly flourish in the post-season a-la Durant or others where their repoire is so massive they can't be stopped, only slowed or hindered.

Do you think that Walton is more skilled passer and defender in absolute terms as well? That's my thought and I think the gap is significant enough that it can make up massive scoring difference.

[euroleague]

I don’t think enough people have watched enough footage to speak in absolute terms.

In relative terms, I’d say it’s actually probably Embiid who has more ‘skill’ and Walton who was the smarter and harder player. It wasn’t just Walton’s skills that made him a great passer, it was his deep understanding of the game. Ditto his defense.

Walton was certainly better relative to his era, but I don’t think it was because of any superior technical skill s

[Doctor MJ]

A few days ago I had intense discussion on the General Board about Joel Embiid vs Bill Walton in terms of who was/is more skilled basketball player. Other than I was called delusional biased fool, I think that it opened interesting discussion about the definition of basketball skills.

Who do you think is more skilled basketball player and how close do you see it? I think that Embiid's scoring repertoire is much superior and his shooting touch is way ahead, but Walton basically has the edge at everything else. I think it's very close, but again a lot of people think I force pro oldschool narrative.

What do you think?

So, big picture, I think the thing is that when Player A has one advantage, and Player B has another advantage, it's not necessarily going to be possible to arrive at any clear cut answer as to who has more of an advantage. It's true when talking about holistic player impact, and all the more true when trying to quantify something like skill.

With that said, I see it like you do. Embiid's the far better scorer, Walton's better at everything else, including the ability to think quickly in general. Embiid's scoring alone may make him a better player than Walton ever was, but anyone not seeing a lot of advantages for Walton is just ignorant.

Something I will say, and interested on your take on this:

I think people have a tendency to look at Walton's lack of volume scoring in the pros and think he lacked scoring skills, but we know that in college the guy was quite the scorer. While Embiid has continued to refine his volume scoring-related skills at an age well beyond Walton did, and thus it's reasonable to expect him to be more skilled on that front, my general take has always been that Walton reduced his scoring game into something less ambitious in the pros out of a combination of a) superior competition, b) increasing defense and passing focus, and most of all c) injury. I tend to say the same about Bill Russell minus the injuries.

It would be nice if people realized that just because someone isn't doing a ton of X in the NBA, that doesn't mean he lacks the fundamental skills to do it. (And yeah, it's obviously the most impressive when someone can dominate with a skill in the NBA, but talent - which includes size and strength - is a thing too.)

[Dutchball97]

Embiid sacrificed his defense for his scoring repertoire.

Walton was a better passer and a better defender at peak(probably couldn't defend in space but didn't need to)

lol Joel is still absolutely ELITE on the defensive end. Not sure why you think his defense has fallen off. He changes the game on both ends.

In the play-offs I expect him to show his defense off more because I'm certain he still has it in him but in the regular season he doesn't put in the same level of effort due to a much bigger offensive responsibility. Maybe Harden coming in opens up Embiid to do more on defense again as well.

[HeartBreakKid]

Embiid has better handles, more consistent go to moves, more moves in general and he's a much better shooter. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Walton is a more technically sound defender, and understands offensive schemes better - but I'd say he is more of a smart player than an insanely skilled one.

[Samurai]

In terms of skills, Embiid has the better handles. In general, the average big today will have better handles than the average center from the 70's since most bigs more resemble very large wings compared to the style of play in Walton's time. Embiid is the far better shooter (81% FT shooter compared to a 66% shooter) and even if Walton were born in 1994 I am confident that Walton's awkward-looking one-hand push shooting motion wouldn't lend itself to being a competent 3-point marksman in today's game. I'd give Walton the big edge as a passer; I think Jokic is the only one today who rivals (or surpasses) Walton in this regard. I would rate Walton's passing as superior to Embiid in all three areas - as an outlet passer, a high-post facilitator, and in the low-post hitting cutters.

Defensively I'd give Walton a slight edge as a man defender, but I think part of that is because it was more of a necessity in Walton's day. Or at least I haven't seen Embiid have to guard a big with the offensive skills of a Kareem or Lanier thus far. And while Embiid seems like an excellent help defender, Walton was one of the best ever in this regard. Embiid was more athletic as a help defender but Walton's fundamentals, awareness and bbIQ were GOAT-level. I'd give Walton the edge in rebounding. While Walton has a very slight advantage in ORB%, I'd consider them a wash because I think that is influenced by today's 3-point line; if your coach wants you to stand 24 feet away to draw your defender away from the basket, your offensive rebounding opportunities disappear. And on the defensive glass, Walton is better in comparison to their peers (Embiid has finished as high as 4th two times in DRB% while Walton led the league 4 times). There are very few in the history of the game that were better on the defensive glass than a prime (however short that was) Walton.

[70sFan]

Embiid has better handles, more consistent go to moves, more moves in general and he's a much better shooter. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

Walton is a more technically sound defender, and understands offensive schemes better - but I'd say he is more of a smart player than an insanely skilled one.

Walton is much better passer though, however you want to measure it. I think it is a part of basketball skill.

[70sFan]

A few days ago I had intense discussion on the General Board about Joel Embiid vs Bill Walton in terms of who was/is more skilled basketball player. Other than I was called delusional biased fool, I think that it opened interesting discussion about the definition of basketball skills.

Who do you think is more skilled basketball player and how close do you see it? I think that Embiid's scoring repertoire is much superior and his shooting touch is way ahead, but Walton basically has the edge at everything else. I think it's very close, but again a lot of people think I force pro oldschool narrative.

What do you think?

So, big picture, I think the thing is that when Player A has one advantage, and Player B has another advantage, it's not necessarily going to be possible to arrive at any clear cut answer as to who has more of an advantage. It's true when talking about holistic player impact, and all the more true when trying to quantify something like skill.

With that said, I see it like you do. Embiid's the far better scorer, Walton's better at everything else, including the ability to think quickly in general. Embiid's scoring alone may make him a better player than Walton ever was, but anyone not seeing a lot of advantages for Walton is just ignorant.

Something I will say, and interested on your take on this:

I think people have a tendency to look at Walton's lack of volume scoring in the pros and think he lacked scoring skills, but we know that in college the guy was quite the scorer. While Embiid has continued to refine his volume scoring-related skills at an age well beyond Walton did, and thus it's reasonable to expect him to be more skilled on that front, my general take has always been that Walton reduced his scoring game into something less ambitious in the pros out of a combination of a) superior competition, b) increasing defense and passing focus, and most of all c) injury. I tend to say the same about Bill Russell minus the injuries.

It would be nice if people realized that just because someone isn't doing a ton of X in the NBA, that doesn't mean he lacks the fundamental skills to do it. (And yeah, it's obviously the most impressive when someone can dominate with a skill in the NBA, but talent - which includes size and strength - is a thing too.)

I think you bring up very important and underappreciated point here. Walton didn't take a lot of shots in the NBA, but was it caused by lack of scoring skills?

One thing is that we should remember that Walton always struggled with injuries. It means that in his first 2 years, he basically didn't play consistently. 3rd year was his first and only season when we can say that he played "full RS" (he still missed 17 games, but that's enough to make a clear conclusion). Even then, he played low minutes for that era (around 33-34 mpg), which made his total numbers less impressive than other centers in the league. In 1978 he actually scored on similar per possession volume as Bob Lanier in 1974 or 1979 Moses, but he played far less minutes per game than them.

Another thing is that he played under Ramsay's motion offense and Jack decided to use him as a high post playmaker, so naturally he wasn't in position to score a lot of points - that wasn't his role. It's possible that he'd develop scoring repertoire later in his prime, but he lost his prime basically.

I often like comparing Bill Walton to 2005-07 Tim Duncan. Duncan didn't score a lot of points in these seasons, because Spurs didn't need him to do so. We know that Timmy was capable of carrying heavier load than that, as he showed earlier in his career. That wasn't needed when he played in that system though. Walton was in similar situation, except that he never had the chance to show his value in early 2000s Duncan situation. Another thing is that Walton was more gifted passer than Duncan, so he leveraged his scoring out of passing (Duncan did it in opposite direction, like most inside-out centers).

Of course Walton isn't close to Embiid as a scorer. I also don't believe he had the skills to be on Duncan's level. Painting him as limited scorer peaking at 18 ppg sells him a bit short though in my opinion.

[falcolombardi]

A few days ago I had intense discussion on the General Board about Joel Embiid vs Bill Walton in terms of who was/is more skilled basketball player. Other than I was called delusional biased fool, I think that it opened interesting discussion about the definition of basketball skills.

Who do you think is more skilled basketball player and how close do you see it? I think that Embiid's scoring repertoire is much superior and his shooting touch is way ahead, but Walton basically has the edge at everything else. I think it's very close, but again a lot of people think I force pro oldschool narrative.

What do you think?

most people dont consider basketball IQ and passing the same thingh as skill (other thsn maybe hyperaccurate passinh)

generally players are seen as the mix of 3 elements: physical tools, skills, basketball inteligence (and intangibles like leadership or effort would be the fourth element)

in that sense embiid can probably do everythingh walton can in a H.O.R.S.E sense and better (shooting. driving, post moves, handle and body control, etc)

(other thsn maybe threadimg the needle with tight windows passes), but his basketball IQ offensively and defensively wouldnt be as good

[70sFan]

A few days ago I had intense discussion on the General Board about Joel Embiid vs Bill Walton in terms of who was/is more skilled basketball player. Other than I was called delusional biased fool, I think that it opened interesting discussion about the definition of basketball skills.

Who do you think is more skilled basketball player and how close do you see it? I think that Embiid's scoring repertoire is much superior and his shooting touch is way ahead, but Walton basically has the edge at everything else. I think it's very close, but again a lot of people think I force pro oldschool narrative.

What do you think?

most people dont consider basketball IQ and passing the same thingh as skill (other thsn maybe hyperaccurate passinh)

generally players are seen as the mix of 3 elements: physical tools, skills, basketball inteligence (and intangibles like leadership or effort would be the fourth element)

in that sense embiid can probably do everythingh walton can in a H.O.R.S.E sense and better (shooting. driving, post moves, handle and body control, etc)

(other thsn maybe threadimg the needle with tight windows passes), but his basketball IQ offensively and defensively wouldnt be as good

I don't know how anybody can exclude passing from skillset to be honest. I get that some people don't view defensive fundamentals in the same light as me but passing? Almost all of the "most skilled ever" players are amazing passers.

I also disagree that there are no defensive skills. In what way shooting is different than contesting shots or defensive footwork? These are things you can work on and develop throughout the career.

[HeartBreakKid]

A few days ago I had intense discussion on the General Board about Joel Embiid vs Bill Walton in terms of who was/is more skilled basketball player. Other than I was called delusional biased fool, I think that it opened interesting discussion about the definition of basketball skills.

Who do you think is more skilled basketball player and how close do you see it? I think that Embiid's scoring repertoire is much superior and his shooting touch is way ahead, but Walton basically has the edge at everything else. I think it's very close, but again a lot of people think I force pro oldschool narrative.

What do you think?

most people dont consider basketball IQ and passing the same thingh as skill (other thsn maybe hyperaccurate passinh)

generally players are seen as the mix of 3 elements: physical tools, skills, basketball inteligence (and intangibles like leadership or effort would be the fourth element)

in that sense embiid can probably do everythingh walton can in a H.O.R.S.E sense and better (shooting. driving, post moves, handle and body control, etc)

(other thsn maybe threadimg the needle with tight windows passes), but his basketball IQ offensively and defensively wouldnt be as good

I don't know how anybody can exclude passing from skillset to be honest. I get that some people don't view defensive fundamentals in the same light as me but passing? Almost all of the "most skilled ever" players are amazing passers.

I also disagree that there are no defensive skills. In what way shooting is different than contesting shots or defensive footwork? These are things you can work on and develop throughout the career.

Most of the most skilled players are also amazing at everything - and are also guards.

A lot of great passers were great passers since they were prepubescent players. They just have great vision and feel for the game, that is more innate than something you can work your way up as opposed to a free throw.



Even if you wanted to include passing as a skill It isn't as difficult to pass the ball to a player than to have multi layered post moves that are scalable to volume scoring, or the ability to dribble 3+ time without picking it up and get into scoring position etc. There is more diminishing returns with passing until only you get to the highest of level of passing - and that doesn't seem like something that is learned, and you usually need things like shooting to open it up.

So sure, passing is a skill - but it isn't a very elaborate skill relatively speaking. Yes, I am aware there are many bad passers in the NBA, that is not my point.


Either way, I am still not seeing how Walton is as skilled as Embiid. Embiid has a much greater arsenal of moves that he obtained over the years since knowing nothing about basketball. If Bill Walton didn't have a single go-to move or had zero ability to pass, he would still be a comparable player to Rudy Gobert in impact.

[Jaivl]

Yeah I'd put passing mostly on the "IQ" front as well.

Of course, things like one-handed bullet passes or curved bounce passes are skill-based, but the main stuff: reading space, timing, instincts... you probably don't even have to play basketball for that if you have played football, for example.