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I think both of these players will end up in the top 5 for offensive GOATs. And both these seasons were all-time level carry jobs - incidentally, according to NBA WOWY, both the '21 Warriors and '22 Nuggets were the same 16 pts per possession better on offense when Curry/Jokic were on compared to when they're off. Who do you have as better offensively?

Peregrine01 wrote:I think both of these players will end up in the top 5 for offensive GOATs. And both these seasons were all-time level carry jobs - incidentally, according to NBA WOWY, both the '21 Warriors and '22 Nuggets were the same 16 pts per possession better on offense when Curry/Jokic were on compared to when they're off. Who do you have as better offensively?

Nuggets are operating on $133M payroll, currently #6.
Warriors were on $171M payroll, ended at 8th seed.
Given both teams had major injuries, I say Jokic achieved more with less.

Jokics offense is far more translatable to playoffs and I dont see him losing 2 straight playin games which were basically elimination games at least against a young Grizz team at home

steph curry is so overrated on this board

i would take 2019, 2018, and 2020 james harden over 2021 curry

I think Jokic is the right answer here, although things can change.

Last year I thought they were comparable offensively, but I think Jokic upped his game since then.

As of now (up until all-star break):

Nikola Jokic is at an Inflation Adjusted 29.1 pts per 75 (rTS% of 10%).

Backpicks OBPM-5.2
O-LEBRON-5.42
O-RAPTOR-9
O-EPM-7.7

2021 Steph
Inflation Adjusted 31.7 pts per 75 (rTS% of 8.7%)
Backpicks OBPM-4.2
O-LEBRON-5.93
O-RAPTOR-8.7
O-EPM-7.5

I think you could prefer one's scoring over the other based on proven production. But if I had to guess, I might favor Jokic's offense in terms of projected resiliency. Why you may ask? Well for one, I think it is generally pretty hard to take away playmaking. It probably isn't as variable as scoring, as a scorer typically will maintain their scoring gravity no matter what, and therefore assuming their decision-making doesn't change, they can still make the same passes and/create the same opportunities they did before.

But also, Jokic's scoring game is so versatile because he is such a potent post presence as a 1 on 1 scorer. He is extremely hard to double because his passing is just that outlandish. Jokic is an elite offensive rebounding threat that you constantly must box-out or else he will kill you on the boards. Because of him naturally playing inside the paint more, he is much more liable to draw fouls, which not only keeps his efficiency up but can get the opposing front court in trouble. Finally, he is shooting 56% from midrange on about 7.5 attempts per game. That consistency as a scorer from that range probably gives him a higher floor than Curry, who while will go nuclear from 3 is naturally more prone to cold stretches due to the variability of the 3. Jokic is also terrific finishing at the rim, and the fact he can create and or be a finisher as a roller on these plays is a value add.

Curry's gravity is a real thing, but I think Jokic has outlier gravity relative to many all-time offensive players, due to him being an all-time floor-spacer for a big. His ability to draw a rimp-protector out the paint is highly valuable. I think I trust Jokic more as a floor-raiser because of his iso-scoring and less need for him to have good passers on his team. I greatly value floor-raising so I do lean Jokic. I also think Jokic might have an argument as a better offensive ceiling-raiser because his quick decision-making with his passing, offensive rebounding, and off-ball shooting are real threats.

Gotta be Jokic, I'd take 16' Steph for offense only though.

GSP wrote:Jokics offense is far more translatable to playoffs and I dont see him losing 2 straight playin games which were basically elimination games at least against a young Grizz team at home

"Far more translatable" is definitely hyperbole.

GSP wrote:Jokics offense is far more translatable to playoffs and I dont see him losing 2 straight playin games which were basically elimination games at least against a young Grizz team at home

They got swept in the playoffs right? 4 straight?

parsnips33 wrote:

GSP wrote:Jokics offense is far more translatable to playoffs and I dont see him losing 2 straight playin games which were basically elimination games at least against a young Grizz team at home

They got swept in the playoffs right? 4 straight?

Against a team significantly better than the Lakers or Grizzles.

parsnips33 wrote:

GSP wrote:Jokics offense is far more translatable to playoffs and I dont see him losing 2 straight playin games which were basically elimination games at least against a young Grizz team at home

They got swept in the playoffs right? 4 straight?

The Suns beat the Lakers while CP3 was so injured, he couldn’t even shoot.

CP3 averaged 26ppg against the Nuggets

Colbinii wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:

GSP wrote:Jokics offense is far more translatable to playoffs and I dont see him losing 2 straight playin games which were basically elimination games at least against a young Grizz team at home

They got swept in the playoffs right? 4 straight?

Against a team significantly better than the Lakers or Grizzles.

So you don't think it's possible a Jokic team could have lost those games?

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to say Jokic was better offensively, but there has to be a better justification for the claim than that

parsnips33 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:
They got swept in the playoffs right? 4 straight?

Against a team significantly better than the Lakers or Grizzles.

So you don't think it's possible a Jokic team could have lost those games?

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to say Jokic was better offensively, but there has to be a better justification for the claim than that

Sure, anything is technically possible.

I dont think we should fight poor arguments with poor arguments.

Colbinii wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:
Against a team significantly better than the Lakers or Grizzles.

So you don't think it's possible a Jokic team could have lost those games?

I don't think it's necessarily wrong to say Jokic was better offensively, but there has to be a better justification for the claim than that

Sure, anything is technically possible.

I dont think we should fight poor arguments with poor arguments.

To bring up a sample of 2 games, (one went to OT, the other was decided by a buzzer beater 3) to try to make the decision between Jokic and Curry is ridiculous.

Especially because we have seen Jokic lose elimination games even just last year.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Steph is better because Jokic got swept, just trying to point out how silly the initial comment was

So a few points in favor of both:

Curry:
- As a guard, Curry can control the action more than Jokic, even though Jokic does handle the ball as a point center. Still, there is a positional advantage here that biases offensive impact in favor of guards compared to centers.
- Curry is harder to double on the perimeter compared to Jokic in the interior where space is more congested. This ties into the point above.
- Curry's movement off the ball causes more confusion with the defense, leading to more engagement for a team better equipped to take advantage of opening that he creates.
- Curry can explode in a way that Jokic can't due to shot-making ability that's probably unrivalled by anyone ever.

Jokic:
- Has an inevitability to his offensive game that Curry doesn't have. It's remarkably robust from game to game.
- As a big who can stretch the floor, he opens up the paint for layups for his teammates (see Murray against the Jazz in 2020).
- Is an offensive rebounding machine who cleans up misses for high percentage looks.
- Likely in the handful of greatest passers of all-time who will absolutely punish double teams.

Peregrine01 wrote:I think both of these players will end up in the top 5 for offensive GOATs. And both these seasons were all-time level carry jobs - incidentally, according to NBA WOWY, both the '21 Warriors and '22 Nuggets were the same 16 pts per possession better on offense when Curry/Jokic were on compared to when they're off. Who do you have as better offensively?

So, I'll say that last year I reluctantly gave Jokic my OPOY vote over Curry, and given that Jokic is considerably stronger this year than last, that answers the poll.

However, I thought that when Curry was at his best - both toward the end of last season, and at the beginning of this season - he was a more valuable offensive player than Jokic.

I think this remains one of the two keys with Curry in basically any comparison like this:

1. The scale of his gravitational impact is much greater than almost anyone realizes.

2. His streakiness is the major limiting factor.

Take the streakiness out, Curry is the greatest offensive player we've ever witnessed.

With the streakiness, well, it's a reason for a number of guys to have candidacies ahead of him, and Jokic at this point is clearly one of those guys.

GSP wrote:Jokics offense is far more translatable to playoffs and I dont see him losing 2 straight playin games which were basically elimination games at least against a young Grizz team at home

Curry scored 37 & 39 points with a positive +/- in both games against teams whose stars have much stronger supporting casts than he did. You're obviously not remembering how those games actually went when looking to reference the whole "Curry doesn't translate to the playoffs" cliche.

I can acknowledge that Curry has had some inconsistency in the playoffs - as well as the regular season - but it's important not to apply that notion of inconsistency as a reason to assume others would have done better than him in any given playoff loss. Partially because it just plain makes you look silly in a case like this, and partially because Curry has done more playoff winning than anyone else in the league over the past 7 years.

As I say all of that: Jokic's game absolutely has more of a "he can reach for it any time he wants" component to it than Curry, and I don't think it's all crazy to rank Jokic's offense right now over anyone in basketball history. There is no debate that Jokic's name should be laughed out of.

I'm totally ready to crown Jokic the offensive GOAT. I mean, not yet, but it's a real possibility.

Jaivl wrote:I'm totally ready to crown Jokic the offensive GOAT. I mean, not yet, but it's a real possibility.

The more I watch Jokic, the more I see that only absolute best version of Magic is ahead of him and Jokic is getting closer and closer.

Jaivl wrote:I'm totally ready to crown Jokic the offensive GOAT. I mean, not yet, but it's a real possibility.

I am too, brother. He's done things since the beginning of last season, overall, offensively, that have never been done in NBA History!

Doctor MJ wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:I think both of these players will end up in the top 5 for offensive GOATs. And both these seasons were all-time level carry jobs - incidentally, according to NBA WOWY, both the '21 Warriors and '22 Nuggets were the same 16 pts per possession better on offense when Curry/Jokic were on compared to when they're off. Who do you have as better offensively?

So, I'll say that last year I reluctantly gave Jokic my OPOY vote over Curry, and given that Jokic is considerably stronger this year than last, that answers the poll.

However, I thought that when Curry was at his best - both toward the end of last season, and at the beginning of this season - he was a more valuable offensive player than Jokic.

I think this remains one of the two keys with Curry in basically any comparison like this:

1. The scale of his gravitational impact is much greater than almost anyone realizes.

2. His streakiness is the major limiting factor.

Take the streakiness out, Curry is the greatest offensive player we've ever witnessed.

With the streakiness, well, it's a reason for a number of guys to have candidacies ahead of him, and Jokic at this point is clearly one of those guys.

Is this actually still true? It seems like moreso than people acknowledge his impact tracks very much with his box score production. Or rather, when his offence looks like it's good but not ATG on the stat sheet, the impact metrics also agree with this.