RealGM

On average, because these aren't going to be exactly the same number of years:

09-10 LeBron

11-14 LeBron

15-18 LeBron

Just curious to see how many people still have 09-10 as his peak, relative to the older, more skilled, but less explosive LeBron?

therealbig3 wrote:On average, because these aren't going to be exactly the same number of years:

09-10 LeBron

11-14 LeBron

15-18 LeBron

Just curious to see how many people still have 09-10 as his peak, relative to the older, more skilled, but less explosive LeBron?

LeBron is annoying as **** to rank. His:

Regular season offence
Regular season defence
Post season offence
Post season defence

All peaked in different seasons.
And the minutiae within like his post game, mid range shooting, 3 point shooting, etc also all peaked in different seasons.

If I'm taking a complete body of work start to finish I think 2016-2018 Lebron might be his best stretch. 2018 Lebron is rightly knocked for his defence but as we saw in 2020 it wasn't matter of ability but effort, and considering the Cavs defence was to my knowledge, literally the worst defence of all time in 2019, I can see why he didn't put in the effort in the 2018 regular season.

I also have some reservations on his 17-18 offence, as these were the years offence started to explode league wide, so you have to wonder how much of it was his improvement and just the effect of getting more spacing. But he did clearly develop some new skills, namely a post fade away and an off the dribble 3, and even relative to his peers he was incredible in the post season, which is enough for me to consider his improvement as legit.

For a 3 year stretch, 2012-2014. 2 mvps, 2 FMVPs, 3 straight finals appearances, led a 66 win team with an historic 27 game win streak.

If we’re talking a 5 year stretch i’d feel pretty good about 09-13. Lebron didn’t play with full motor in the regular season in many of his later prime years. 2011 is a rough year, but i’m not all that impressed by 2015 either.

I still think 08-09/09-10 was his peak. He’s obviously gained some skill but i think lost even more quickness.

Elite first step Lebron would absolutely feast with today’s spacing (Wade as well).

Im Your Father wrote:I still think 08-09/09-10 was his peak. He’s obviously gained some skill but i think lost even more quickness.

Elite first step Lebron would absolutely feast with today’s spacing (Wade as well).

Do you believe the spacing in his later prime years masked some of his athletic decline like in 2017, 18 and 20?

No-more-rings wrote:

Im Your Father wrote:I still think 08-09/09-10 was his peak. He’s obviously gained some skill but i think lost even more quickness.

Elite first step Lebron would absolutely feast with today’s spacing (Wade as well).

Do you believe the spacing in his later prime years masked some of his athletic decline like in 2017, 18 and 20?

Hmmm we’ll kind of, but after losing some weight I actually think 2016-18 Lebron was quicker than Miami Lebron.

I do think that was kind of the case in 2020 (although that team was not a great shooting team compared to the league, but the whole shooting paradigm had shifted by that point).

The other thing is that I’m not really convinced that current Lebron (or second Cleveland Lebron) is a meaningfully better shooter than he was in the 09 and 10 seasons.

It's got to be 2009-2010.

2009-2010:
Regular Season:
PER: 31.4 (close to #1 all time, and, for 2 straight years)
WS/48: .309 (same)

Playoffs:
PER: 33.5
WS/48: .330

(This is arguably the greatest stretch of basketball ever played.)

2011-2014:
Regular Season:
PER: 29.6
WS/48: .281

Playoffs:
PER: 28.2
WS/48: .252

2015-2018:
Regular Season:
PER: 27.3
WS/48: .221

Playoffs:
PER: 29.4
WS/48: .247

Yes, I know..this is box score based, and just a thumbnail sketch, in a way.

But still, it paints a very clear picture of Lebron as arguably a GOAT candidate 2009-2010. And, he probably never reached that level of total dominance ever again.

ty 4191 wrote:It's got to be 2009-2010.

2009-2010:
Regular Season:
PER: 31.4 (close to #1 all time, and, for 2 straight years)
WS/48: .309 (same)

Playoffs:
PER: 33.5
WS/48: .330

(This is arguably the greatest stretch of basketball ever played.)

2011-2014:
Regular Season:
PER: 29.6
WS/48: .281

Playoffs:
PER: 28.2
WS/48: .252

2015-2018:
Regular Season:
PER: 27.3
WS/48: .221

Playoffs:
PER: 29.4
WS/48: .247

Yes, I know..this is box score based, and just a thumbnail sketch, in a way.

But still, it paints a very clear picture of Lebron as arguably a GOAT candidate 2009-2010. And, he probably never reached that level of total dominance ever again.

Boxscore stats aggregates arguably tell more about how bad a supporting cast it (hence demanding its star to do more and more) than anythingh else

jokic wouldnt be a worse player if Murray was playing but how boxscore would say he is

and i say this as someone who thinks 2009 is the greatest level of impact ever

ty 4191 wrote:It's got to be 2009-2010.

2009-2010:
Regular Season:
PER: 31.4 (close to #1 all time, and, for 2 straight years)
WS/48: .309 (same)

Playoffs:
PER: 33.5
WS/48: .330

(This is arguably the greatest stretch of basketball ever played.)

2011-2014:
Regular Season:
PER: 29.6
WS/48: .281

Playoffs:
PER: 28.2
WS/48: .252

2015-2018:
Regular Season:
PER: 27.3
WS/48: .221

Playoffs:
PER: 29.4
WS/48: .247

Yes, I know..this is box score based, and just a thumbnail sketch, in a way.

But still, it paints a very clear picture of Lebron as arguably a GOAT candidate 2009-2010. And, he probably never reached that level of total dominance ever again.

PER over 25 games against mostly bad defenders isn’t that indicative of dominance... especially when he only won 3 out of the 5 playoff series.

Most of that PER is defended in single coverage by Turkoglu, Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, etc.

I’d take his 15-18 years, even with his bad defense, just because he was a better player.

I looked it up. Who voted against Lebron for MVP in 2009?

euroleague wrote:

ty 4191 wrote:It's got to be 2009-2010.

2009-2010:
Regular Season:
PER: 31.4 (close to #1 all time, and, for 2 straight years)
WS/48: .309 (same)

Playoffs:
PER: 33.5
WS/48: .330

(This is arguably the greatest stretch of basketball ever played.)

2011-2014:
Regular Season:
PER: 29.6
WS/48: .281

Playoffs:
PER: 28.2
WS/48: .252

2015-2018:
Regular Season:
PER: 27.3
WS/48: .221

Playoffs:
PER: 29.4
WS/48: .247

Yes, I know..this is box score based, and just a thumbnail sketch, in a way.

But still, it paints a very clear picture of Lebron as arguably a GOAT candidate 2009-2010. And, he probably never reached that level of total dominance ever again.

PER over 25 games against mostly bad defenders isn’t that indicative of dominance... especially when he only won 3 out of the 5 playoff series.

Most of that PER is defended in single coverage by Turkoglu, Joe Johnson, Paul Pierce, etc.

I’d take his 15-18 years, even with his bad defense, just because he was a better player.

bad defense?

Orlando literally was the league best defense in 2009, 2010 boston was elite

if anythingh he played against elite defenses

Im Your Father wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:

Im Your Father wrote:I still think 08-09/09-10 was his peak. He’s obviously gained some skill but i think lost even more quickness.

Elite first step Lebron would absolutely feast with today’s spacing (Wade as well).

Do you believe the spacing in his later prime years masked some of his athletic decline like in 2017, 18 and 20?

Hmmm we’ll kind of, but after losing some weight I actually think 2016-18 Lebron was quicker than Miami Lebron.

I do think that was kind of the case in 2020 (although that team was not a great shooting team compared to the league, but the whole shooting paradigm had shifted by that point).

The other thing is that I’m not really convinced that current Lebron (or second Cleveland Lebron) is a meaningfully better shooter than he was in the 09 and 10 seasons.

Off the top of my head, I believe Lebron's off the dribble 3 point percentages are miles better for 18-22 than his Cleveland years. I don't think it's all all spacing based improvement. Don't quote me on that though.

McBubbles wrote:

Im Your Father wrote:

No-more-rings wrote:Do you believe the spacing in his later prime years masked some of his athletic decline like in 2017, 18 and 20?

Hmmm we’ll kind of, but after losing some weight I actually think 2016-18 Lebron was quicker than Miami Lebron.

I do think that was kind of the case in 2020 (although that team was not a great shooting team compared to the league, but the whole shooting paradigm had shifted by that point).

The other thing is that I’m not really convinced that current Lebron (or second Cleveland Lebron) is a meaningfully better shooter than he was in the 09 and 10 seasons.

Off the top of my head, I believe Lebron's off the dribble 3 point percentages are miles better for 18-22 than his Cleveland years. I don't think it's all all spacing based improvement. Don't quote me on that though.

lebron midrange and 3 ball peaked in los Ángeles. specially considering volume

it improved in miami and cavs second Stint but it had its streakyness still

playoffs-16-18

Regular season 09-13 (11 is the weak link)

overall? 12-17 imo or 09-14so i can include goated 2009 season

I don't know but '18 playoffs LeBron is one of the 2-3 greatest short stretches i've ever seen.
One man army.

falcolombardi wrote:playoffs-16-18

Regular season 09-13 (11 is the weak link)

overall? 12-17 imo or 09-14so i can include goated 2009 season

This.

Lebron's off years hurts his prime, 11,14,15 also 19; think about a prime 12,13,16,17,18 as the five consecutive years or 09,10,12,13,16, it's definitely top 3/5 prime.

It's quite possible that 2009-10 - 2010-11 was his regular season peak, 2011-12 - 2013/14 was his overall peak and 2015-16 to 2017-18 was his playoff peak.

I think a lot of people don't like 2012-14 choice because they think LeBron was less resilient postseason performer. I don't think that's the case when you factor that he faced by far the best defensive competition during that period and yet he rarely struggled. Not to mention that big, physical frontcourts always gave James more problems than anything else and he didn't face a single one after 2014.

2012-14 is the best stretch to me, closely followed by 2009-10.