David Robinson's playoff performance underrated

[migya]

Much on here has been said about how bad David Robinson's playoff performance was but that isn't really true.

Duncan became the 1st option offensively for the Spurs in his rookie season playoffs in 98 so Robinson was the 1st option and only star for the Spurs from 90-96 playoffs, being injured in 97 and also for the 92 playoffs. His numbers were:

1990-1996, 53gms, 39.3mins, 8.4fgm,17.2fga, 48.8fg%, 7.2ftm, 9.9fta, 72.8ft%, 11.8reb, 2.9ast, 1.3stl, 3.1blk, 24.0pts.


In comparison, Nowitzki:

2002-2006, 66gms, 42.8mins, 8.6fgm, 19.0fga, 45.3fg%, 1.3fgm 3P, 3.0fga 3P, 41.3fg% 3P, 7.6ftm, 8.6fta, 88.0ft%, 11.5reb, 2.6ast, 1.3stl, 1.1blk, 26.0pts

2008-2012, 46gms, 39.5mins, 9.0fgm, 18.3fga, 49.4fg%, 8.3ftm, 9.0fta, 91.8ft%, 8.8reb, 2.8ast, 0.7stl, 0.7blk, 27.2pts

Prime Nowitzki is heralded as a great playoff performer and yet, besides scoring, his numbers are less than Robinson's, the defensive hall ofcourse being big.

A number of other stars can be used for comparison. Robinson's problem was very low talent on his teams and this huge load on both ends.


Was Robinson a bad playoff performer? How so.

[Colbinii]

Dirk (02-06): 6.7 BPM [5.8 OBPM], 57.2 TS%, 9.1 TOV%, 26.2 USG%

Dirk (08-12): 6.8 BPM [5.7 OBPM], 61.2 TS%, 10.3 TOV%, 30.0 USG%

Robinson (90-96): 6.5 BPM [3.9 OBPM], 55.7 TS%, 11.8 TOV%, 27.6 USG%

The way I have seen this comparison is as follows:

Dirk (08-12) > Robinson (90-96) > Dirk (02-06)

Early/Younger Dirk wasn't as consistent from the mid-range and didn't fully exploit his gravity in all game situations, which he mastered in the second half of his career.

Robinson was often miscast as a 1A rather than a 1B, and once he joined forces with Duncan, we saw Robinsons value skyrocket.

[Dutchball97]

Robinson's play-off performances generally aren't considered bad, you could even argue he was a good play-off performer. He just didn't live up to the incredibly high bar he set for himself in the regular season. It is hard to ignore the relative drop-off even when his post-season numbers are still impressive in their own right.

[sp6r=underrated]

Robinson's play-off performances generally aren't considered bad, you could even argue he was a good play-off performer. He just didn't live up to the incredibly high bar he set for himself in the regular season. It is hard to ignore the relative drop-off even when his post-season numbers are still impressive in their own right.

This is basically it. If Robinson's PS met his RS, people would say this guy could have been a GOAT candidate if he didn't have a shortened career on both ends

[LukaTheGOAT]

Dirk (02-06): 6.7 BPM [5.8 OBPM], 57.2 TS%, 9.1 TOV%, 26.2 USG%

Dirk (08-12): 6.8 BPM [5.7 OBPM], 61.2 TS%, 10.3 TOV%, 30.0 USG%

Robinson (90-96): 6.5 BPM [3.9 OBPM], 55.7 TS%, 11.8 TOV%, 27.6 USG%

The way I have seen this comparison is as follows:

Dirk (08-12) > Robinson (90-96) > Dirk (02-06)

Early/Younger Dirk wasn't as consistent from the mid-range and didn't fully exploit his gravity in all game situations, which he mastered in the second half of his career.

Robinson was often miscast as a 1A rather than a 1B, and once he joined forces with Duncan, we saw Robinsons value skyrocket.

Yeah often peak PS runs as the undisputed #1 scoring options will color a lot of people's perception, which is why arguably guys like KG and Steph are underrated because some people might not consider them the best on their own team despite data suggesting otherwise.

If we look at Robinson's peak values his 5 year PS BPM and Backpicks BPM peaks 26 and 29th respectively in an all-time sense for people we have data on both for.

Dirk on the other hand, his 5 year PS BPM and Backpicks BPM peaks are 7th and 16 all-time in the same vein.

These metrics (especially Backpicks BPM), might lean more towards offensive value than anything else and underrated defensive value. But this kind of explains why Robinson has his reputation, because people become really focused on offensive value, and it is clear is well below some of the all-time great bigs come PS, while in the RS, it looks like he might be worthy of being there based off looking at raw numbers.

If Robinson didn't set the standard so high for himself, by being one of the greatest RS floor-raisers and impact players ever, we might see Robinson in a slightly different light like you said.

[falcolombardi]

Dirk (02-06): 6.7 BPM [5.8 OBPM], 57.2 TS%, 9.1 TOV%, 26.2 USG%

Dirk (08-12): 6.8 BPM [5.7 OBPM], 61.2 TS%, 10.3 TOV%, 30.0 USG%

Robinson (90-96): 6.5 BPM [3.9 OBPM], 55.7 TS%, 11.8 TOV%, 27.6 USG%

The way I have seen this comparison is as follows:

Dirk (08-12) > Robinson (90-96) > Dirk (02-06)

Early/Younger Dirk wasn't as consistent from the mid-range and didn't fully exploit his gravity in all game situations, which he mastered in the second half of his career.

Robinson was often miscast as a 1A rather than a 1B, and once he joined forces with Duncan, we saw Robinsons value skyrocket.

Yeah often peak PS runs as the undisputed #1 scoring options will color a lot of people's perception, which is why arguably guys like KG and Steph are underrated because some people might not consider them the best on their own team despite data suggesting otherwise.

If we look at Robinson's peak values his 5 year PS BPM and Backpicks BPM peaks 26 and 29th respectively in an all-time sense for people we have data on both for.

Dirk on the other hand, his 5 year PS BPM and Backpicks BPM peaks are 7th and 16 all-time in the same vein.

These metrics (especially Backpicks BPM), might lean more towards offensive value than anything else and underrated defensive value. But this kind of explains why Robinson has his reputation, because people become really focused on offensive value, and it is clear is well below some of the all-time great bigs come PS, while in the RS, it looks like he might be worthy of being there based off looking at raw numbers.

If Robinson didn't set the standard so high for himself, by being one of the greatest RS floor-raisers and impact players ever, we might see Robinson in a slightly different light like you said.

if robinson had got to play with like Kevin Porter or someone like that in his prime i wonder how much the perception would improve

he was forced to be a so-so post scorer rather than a goat tier roll man

[Cavsfansince84]

Part of it I think is him getting overshadowed by Hakeem when MJ was out. Hakeem took teams that were a 2 seed and 6 seed and won b2b titles while David played on teams that were a 3 seed and 1 seed and lost in the 1st round then in the wcf. So Robinson takes some of the blame for that. I agree though he needed to play with a better pg.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Dirk (02-06): 6.7 BPM [5.8 OBPM], 57.2 TS%, 9.1 TOV%, 26.2 USG%

Dirk (08-12): 6.8 BPM [5.7 OBPM], 61.2 TS%, 10.3 TOV%, 30.0 USG%

Robinson (90-96): 6.5 BPM [3.9 OBPM], 55.7 TS%, 11.8 TOV%, 27.6 USG%

The way I have seen this comparison is as follows:

Dirk (08-12) > Robinson (90-96) > Dirk (02-06)

Early/Younger Dirk wasn't as consistent from the mid-range and didn't fully exploit his gravity in all game situations, which he mastered in the second half of his career.

Robinson was often miscast as a 1A rather than a 1B, and once he joined forces with Duncan, we saw Robinsons value skyrocket.

Yeah often peak PS runs as the undisputed #1 scoring options will color a lot of people's perception, which is why arguably guys like KG and Steph are underrated because some people might not consider them the best on their own team despite data suggesting otherwise.

If we look at Robinson's peak values his 5 year PS BPM and Backpicks BPM peaks 26 and 29th respectively in an all-time sense for people we have data on both for.

Dirk on the other hand, his 5 year PS BPM and Backpicks BPM peaks are 7th and 16 all-time in the same vein.

These metrics (especially Backpicks BPM), might lean more towards offensive value than anything else and underrated defensive value. But this kind of explains why Robinson has his reputation, because people become really focused on offensive value, and it is clear is well below some of the all-time great bigs come PS, while in the RS, it looks like he might be worthy of being there based off looking at raw numbers.

If Robinson didn't set the standard so high for himself, by being one of the greatest RS floor-raisers and impact players ever, we might see Robinson in a slightly different light like you said.

if robinson had got to play with like Kevin Porter or someone like that in his prime i wonder how much the perception would improve

he was forced to be a so-so post scorer rather than a goat tier roll man

I've had friends who have posed this; he was a good pick and pop target, and along with Shaq, Kemp, he was the best lob catcher of his era.

[No-more-rings]

With Robinson, his offensive performances against strong defenses is what’s troubling. It may be less noticeable looking at his averages, but he rarely if ever raised his game against strong teams/defenses which in the case of someone like Dirk he usually more than held his own against defenses like the Spurs or Grizzlies among others.

[G35]

Yeah often peak PS runs as the undisputed #1 scoring options will color a lot of people's perception, which is why arguably guys like KG and Steph are underrated because some people might not consider them the best on their own team despite data suggesting otherwise.

If we look at Robinson's peak values his 5 year PS BPM and Backpicks BPM peaks 26 and 29th respectively in an all-time sense for people we have data on both for.

Dirk on the other hand, his 5 year PS BPM and Backpicks BPM peaks are 7th and 16 all-time in the same vein.

These metrics (especially Backpicks BPM), might lean more towards offensive value than anything else and underrated defensive value. But this kind of explains why Robinson has his reputation, because people become really focused on offensive value, and it is clear is well below some of the all-time great bigs come PS, while in the RS, it looks like he might be worthy of being there based off looking at raw numbers.

If Robinson didn't set the standard so high for himself, by being one of the greatest RS floor-raisers and impact players ever, we might see Robinson in a slightly different light like you said.

if robinson had got to play with like Kevin Porter or someone like that in his prime i wonder how much the perception would improve

he was forced to be a so-so post scorer rather than a goat tier roll man

I've had friends who have posed this; he was a good pick and pop target, and along with Shaq, Kemp, he was the best lob catcher of his era.

Who was the best playmaker that Robinson played with from 1990-96?

Robinson is one of those players that people tend to look at his numbers and make black and white judgements and do not apply context i.e. coaching, caliber of teammates.

For example Kevin Garnett gets the "He played for a terrible franchise and had horrible teammates" excuse made for him all the time. But you do not see the same argument made for DRob. Robinson is at least top 3 and possibly the best floor raiser of all time. Few bigs are able to win on their own....that is counting Hakeem. The best big that ever did it was Duncan in 2003.

Hakeem won with great guard play from Sam Cassell and great shooting from Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry...they spaced the floor for Hakeem. Then the Rockets went and acquired Clyde Drexler who was a great fit next to Dream. Robinson got none of those luxuries......

[migya]

if robinson had got to play with like Kevin Porter or someone like that in his prime i wonder how much the perception would improve

he was forced to be a so-so post scorer rather than a goat tier roll man

I've had friends who have posed this; he was a good pick and pop target, and along with Shaq, Kemp, he was the best lob catcher of his era.

Who was the best playmaker that Robinson played with from 1990-96?

Robinson is one of those players that people tend to look at his numbers and make black and white judgements and do not apply context i.e. coaching, caliber of teammates.

For example Kevin Garnett gets the "He played for a terrible franchise and had horrible teammates" excuse made for him all the time. But you do not see the same argument made for DRob. Robinson is at least top 3 and possibly the best floor raiser of all time. Few bigs are able to win on their own....that is counting Hakeem. The best big that ever did it was Duncan in 2003.

Hakeem won with great guard play from Sam Cassell and great shooting from Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry...they spaced the floor for Hakeem. Then the Rockets went and acquired Clyde Drexler who was a great fit next to Dream. Robinson got none of those luxuries......

Great comparison with Garnett. Garnett and Robinson both did great with little on their teams. Robinson is better on both ends than Garnett. Robinson dominated from day 1 on both ends and because of his playing style, many here view him lowly but his prime is top 10 ever.

Replace Elliott, who was allstar twice, with Mitch Richmond and they win in 95 and possibly at least another championship before Duncan.

Context is always everything and Robinson was a prisoner to his situation. Replace Shaq with Robinson on Orlando, that team wins in 95. On the Lakers from 97 to 99 they likely make at least one finals.

[70sFan]

It's not that Robinson sucked in postseason, but he was very weak first scoting option, which is why people don't put him on the same level as the greatest offensive bigs ever. You have to take into account that Spurs faced relatively weak defensive competition in 1990-98 postseason and Robinson struggled basically against any non-terrible defense they faced.

Sure, he'd fare much better with better supporting cast, but we've seen Hakeem, Wilt or Kareem doing much better than Robinson in the playoffs with weak supporting casts.

[migya]

With Robinson, his offensive performances against strong defenses is what’s troubling. It may be less noticeable looking at his averages, but he rarely if ever raised his game against strong teams/defenses which in the case of someone like Dirk he usually more than held his own against defenses like the Spurs or Grizzlies among others.

Some playoff numbers of Dirk:

2002 2nd round v Kings- 40.2fg%, 47.1fg% 3P, 45.3mins, 25.4pts, 11.6reb, 3.2ast, 1.4stl, 0.4blk
*He scored but at horrible efficiency.

2003 WCF v Spurs - 43.1fg%, 28.6fg% 3P, 41.0mins, 25.3pts, 11.3reb, 2.0ast, 1.3stl, 0.7blk
*Again He scored but very bad efficiency.


Compare to Robinson infamous 1995 WCF v Rockets - 44.9fg%, 41.7mins, 23.8pts, 11.3reb, 2.7ast, 1.5stl, 2.2blk
* He scored close to Nowitzki, rebounds, assists and steals even, blocks far more to Robinson, but slightly better efficiency. As bad as Robinson is said to have performed in that series, Dirk has performed at no better than that in more than these two series.

Olajuwon was a great defender and Robinson was facing double teams constantly also. The Kings were not great defensively and Webber certainly is no defensive savant.

Looks much like biased and skewing much to the the point shooting happy crowd.

[migya]

It's not that Robinson sucked in postseason, but he was very weak first scoting option, which is why people don't put him on the same level as the greatest offensive bigs ever. You have to take into account that Spurs faced relatively weak defensive competition in 1990-98 postseason and Robinson struggled basically against any non-terrible defense they faced.

Sure, he'd fare much better with better supporting cast, but we've seen Hakeem, Wilt or Kareem doing much better than Robinson in the playoffs with weak supporting casts.

The evidence doesn't support that. The teams Robinson's Spurs lost against were almost all very good defensively. What it shows was that they knew to limit Robinson and his weak team wouldn't carry them.

Robison was one of the best scorers of the 90s and lead his team to very good winning records year after year. That's a good first option.

[70sFan]

It's not that Robinson sucked in postseason, but he was very weak first scoting option, which is why people don't put him on the same level as the greatest offensive bigs ever. You have to take into account that Spurs faced relatively weak defensive competition in 1990-98 postseason and Robinson struggled basically against any non-terrible defense they faced.

Sure, he'd fare much better with better supporting cast, but we've seen Hakeem, Wilt or Kareem doing much better than Robinson in the playoffs with weak supporting casts.

The evidence doesn't support that. The teams Robinson's Spurs lost against were almost all very good defensively. What it shows was that they knew to limit Robinson and his weak team wouldn't carry them.

Robison was one of the best scorers of the 90s and lead his team to very good winning records trade after year. That's a good first option.

Here are culminative stats against -2.0 rDRtg defenses or better:

1960-68 Wilt Chamberlain (66.25% of playoffs games): 47.6 mpg, 28.3 rpg, 4.5 apg, 27.7 ppg on 50.6% FG, 49.5% FT, 51.7% TS (+3.30 rTS%)
1970-80 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (59.57% of playoffs games): 45.3 mpg, 14.9 rpg, 4.1 apg, 30.3 ppg on 52.1% FG, 72.3% FT, 55.1% TS (+3.75 rTS%)
1979-89 Moses Malone (55.84% of playoffs games): 40.8 mpg, 13.7 rpg,1.5 apg, 2.4 tov, 22.7 ppg on 47.2% FG, 82.4% FT and 54.4% TS (+0.73% rTS)
1994-04 Shaquille O'Neal (72.15% of playoffs games): 40.3 mpg, 13.0 rpg, 3.0 apg, 3.1 tov, 26.3 ppg on 55.8% FG, 51.9% FT and 56.5% TS (+4.04% rTS)
1986-96 Hakeem Olajuwon (39.09% of playoffs games): 42.7 mpg, 11.1 rpg, 3.8 apg, 3.6 tov, 27.1 ppg on 52.3% FG, 76.4% FT and 56.9% TS (+3.22% rTS)
1990-98 David Robinson (30.65% of playoffs games): 39.4 mpg, 12.8 rpg, 3.3 apg, 2.4 tov, 21.0 ppg on 45.9% FG, 64.8% FT and 51.7% TS (-1.54% rTS)
1988-97 Patrick Ewing (59.43% of playoffs games): 39.7 mpg, 10.9 rpg, 2.2 apg, 2.9 tov, 21.8 ppg on 46.2% FG, 76.4% FT and 51.6% TS (-1.77% rTS)

Robinson faced by far the weakest defensive opponent on average, less than one third of the time in playoffs. Other than Hakeem, every other center faced good defensive teams in more than half of postseason games.

The only player with worse relatve efficiency here is Ewing, everyone else is clearly higher. Robinson is also by far the last one in volume, though we'd have to take pace into consideration.

[Colbinii]

With Robinson, his offensive performances against strong defenses is what’s troubling. It may be less noticeable looking at his averages, but he rarely if ever raised his game against strong teams/defenses which in the case of someone like Dirk he usually more than held his own against defenses like the Spurs or Grizzlies among others.

Some playoff numbers of Dirk:

2002 2nd round v Kings- 40.2fg%, 47.1fg% 3P, 45.3mins, 25.4pts, 11.6reb, 3.2ast, 1.4stl, 0.4blk
*He scored but at horrible efficiency.

2003 WCF v Spurs - 43.1fg%, 28.6fg% 3P, 41.0mins, 25.3pts, 11.3reb, 2.0ast, 1.3stl, 0.7blk
*Again He scored but very bad efficiency.


Compare to Robinson infamous 1995 WCF v Rockets - 44.9fg%, 41.7mins, 23.8pts, 11.3reb, 2.7ast, 1.5stl, 2.2blk
* He scored close to Nowitzki, rebounds, assists and steals even, blocks far more to Robinson, but slightly better efficiency. As bad as Robinson is said to have performed in that series, Dirk has performed at no better than that in more than these two series.

Olajuwon was a great defender and Robinson was facing double teams constantly also. The Kings were not great defensively and Webber certainly is no defensive savant.

Looks much like biased and skewing much to the the point shooting happy crowd.

Nothing is biased here, you're simply to far behind understanding the NBA statistical landscape. Its like you're stuck in the 1990s when basketball has gone through monumental changes since then in terms of style of play, rules and efficiency barometers.

However, you're missing the bigger picture here Migya. Dirk from 08-12is a completely different player than he was from 02-06. I already stated early Robinson was better than early career Dirk, but it's the second half of Dirk's Prime that puts Dirk's post-season success over Robinson's.

[NO-KG-AI]

Also there isn't some conspiracy to lift guys like KG and lower Robinson. You're seeing what you want to see if praising one gets you angry, and denigrating the other makes you mad as well.... because I'd wager the majority of people here that are very high on KG are also very high on Robinson's peak, definitely higher than general NBA fans and the NBA media are.

[No-more-rings]

With Robinson, his offensive performances against strong defenses is what’s troubling. It may be less noticeable looking at his averages, but he rarely if ever raised his game against strong teams/defenses which in the case of someone like Dirk he usually more than held his own against defenses like the Spurs or Grizzlies among others.

Some playoff numbers of Dirk:

2002 2nd round v Kings- 40.2fg%, 47.1fg% 3P, 45.3mins, 25.4pts, 11.6reb, 3.2ast, 1.4stl, 0.4blk
*He scored but at horrible efficiency.

2003 WCF v Spurs - 43.1fg%, 28.6fg% 3P, 41.0mins, 25.3pts, 11.3reb, 2.0ast, 1.3stl, 0.7blk
*Again He scored but very bad efficiency.


Compare to Robinson infamous 1995 WCF v Rockets - 44.9fg%, 41.7mins, 23.8pts, 11.3reb, 2.7ast, 1.5stl, 2.2blk
* He scored close to Nowitzki, rebounds, assists and steals even, blocks far more to Robinson, but slightly better efficiency. As bad as Robinson is said to have performed in that series, Dirk has performed at no better than that in more than these two series.

Olajuwon was a great defender and Robinson was facing double teams constantly also. The Kings were not great defensively and Webber certainly is no defensive savant.

Looks much like biased and skewing much to the the point shooting happy crowd.

This is cherry picking and some is outright false.

Dirk had a 56.1 ts% in the Spurs series, that's not "very bad efficiency" in any era especially not then the league average ts% was around 52ish.

Here's many series where Dirk just destroyed teams with his scoring.

2002 vs Timberwolves and KG: 33.3 ppg 52.6 fg%, 68.6 ts%
2003 vs Portland: 29.9 ppg 52.1 fg%, 63 ts%
2006 vs Memphis: 31.3 ppg 50.6 fg% 62.7 ts% 2nd ranked defense
2006 vs Spurs: 27.1 ppg 52.7 fg% 65.4 ts% 1st ranked defense and 63 wins
2009 vs Nuggets: 34.4 ppg 53.4 fg% 66 ts%, 54 wins 8th ranked defense
2010 vs Spurs: 26.7 ppg 54.7 fg% 64.3 ts%, 50 wins 8th ranked defense
2011 vs Lakers: 25.3 ppg 57.4 fg%, 67.3 ts%, 57 wins 6th ranked defense

I'll stop there. Why are we even comparing these 2 on offense? Dirk blows Drob away offensively, particularly in the playoffs.

Drob was solid, but he doesn't have an offensive resume like that.

[GSP]

With Robinson, his offensive performances against strong defenses is what’s troubling. It may be less noticeable looking at his averages, but he rarely if ever raised his game against strong teams/defenses which in the case of someone like Dirk he usually more than held his own against defenses like the Spurs or Grizzlies among others.

This and the automatic "plus his great defense" is conjecture as he had some bad playoff defenses too so it isn't just his scoring that took a dip in some series. Just b/c he's an all-time defender doesn't mean there weren't defensive issues in playoffs for him too

[penbeast0]

Who was the best playmaker that Robinson played with from 1990-96?
...

Hakeem won with great guard play from Sam Cassell and great shooting from Kenny Smith, Vernon Maxwell, Robert Horry...they spaced the floor for Hakeem. Then the Rockets went and acquired Clyde Drexler who was a great fit next to Dream. Robinson got none of those luxuries......

(a) Probably Avery Johnson who was his primary PG in this era and was known as a fine playmaker (though not much of a shooter or defender), he also had aged Mo Cheeks as a rookie splitting time with Rod Strickland whose never seemed as impressive as his numbers.

(b) Cassell was far from a great guard yet in 95 and 96 (if he ever became one). He was a slightly turnover prone shooting point rather than a great playmaker and came off the bench to split time with Kenny Anderson who was more of a playmaker and shooter, though Cassell was more dynamic and hustled more on defense.

I will agree that Hakeem's shooters in Houston are frequently underrated with Kenny Smith, Mario Elie, and Otis Thorpe all having tremendous shooting years in 94, then Thorpe efficient shooting being replace by equally efficient shooting from Clyde Drexler in 95, plus extra spacing from Robert Horry playing a lot of 4. I certainly wouldn't include Vernon Maxwell's shooting as great. He's one of the worst shooting guards to ever play significant minutes in the NBA and didn't play much in the playoffs in 95 anyway.