Best non jordan shooting guard peak

[falcolombardi]

inspire by the thread comparing wade, kobe and harden (and durant*) which had some confusión about criteria

what are the best non jordan shooting guard peaks (feel free to decide who is a shooting guard and who is a point guard or wing since is fairly arbitrary anyway)

[70sFan]

If you include Jerry West, then he's my choice. I consider him a PG, but he had some seasons next to Walt Hazzard, so I guess you can call 1966 West a SG.

He's the best defender in this tier and the most resilient scorer in postseason (with Wade being arguable 2nd). He was capable of playing a lead guard but also had nice off-ball game. I simply don't see any considerable weaknesses in his game and all of the other candidates have some concerns with their games.

[Jaivl]

West
Kobe
Wade
Harden
others

[Eagle4]

Wade without question.

[penbeast0]

Magic should be a choice as well, he was the SG during his first few years playing next to Norm Nixon.

[70sFan]

Magic should be a choice as well, he was the SG during his first few years playing next to Norm Nixon.

I don't think pre-1984 Magic was better than the guys in the poll though.

[Johnny Tomala]

Jerry West played more season as PG according to Basketball Reference. I count him as PG.

[feyki]

I count Iverson and Durant as SG, as well.

[No-more-rings]

Well hopefully this one doesn't get derailed with bias, such as Kobe being easily the best and Wade being worse than Iverson.

Anyway I have Wade 1st but i think picking Kobe, West and maybe even Tmac or Harden is within reason.

I consider peak more or less the average level of their best 2-3 years, they don't have to necessarily be consecutive though.

Why I have Wade over Kobe, I just think it's sort of telling that Wade's peak overlapped more or less with Kobe's and he usually fared better in RAPM but also box score stuff.

2006: Wade- 6.1, Kobe- 4.8
2009: Wade- 6.4, Kobe- 6.1
2010: Wade- 8.4, Kobe- 5.6

Wade's health failed in 07 and 08, so i don't really count those years unless we start talking entire prime, which we are not. Even so looking at their averages from 06-10.

Wade 2006-2010: 27.4/5/7/2/1 3.7 tov 27.6 PER 57 ts% 8.1 BPM
Postseason: 28.7/5.6/5.8 4.2 tov 26 PER 58.4 ts% 8.5 BPM

Kobe 2006-2010: 29.8/5.6/5/1.6/.04 3.1 tov 25 PER 56.5 ts% 5.9 BPM
Postseason: 29.8/5.7/5.4 3.3 tov 24.9 PER 57 ts% 7.2 BPM

Even putting all the numbers aside, Wade was a clear better defender during that time when you consider Kobe's lack of defense in 06 and 07. I don't know. Picking Kobe is reasonable I just think there's less evidence in his favor. Also i think in times of desperation, Kobe tends to overshoot even when he's not making them. I think 2010 game 7 against the Celtics was an ugly example of that. I know he grabbed a lot of rebounds, but i don't know how you only wind up with 2 assists in a game like that, and it's not like he wasn't playing with talent.

I suspect maybe Lukathegoat might throw out his RAPTOR and LEBRON numbers lol.

I think West is too hard to compare given how far apart those eras are. I'll probably just consider him roughly equal with Kobe. It's very possible he's as good as Wade or even better, i just don't know. I'm not confident in it, I think all these guys would do great today, but I think Wade's slashing and athleticism would be a nightmare for teams to defend today with the amount of space he'd potentially be working with too. Wade's lack of 3 wouldn't concern me much, Giannis has done great without it and a difference being you can't wall off the paint from Wade, it just won't work and never has.

I talked some about Harden vs those guys recently, but i just think his consistency in the postseason is more suspect and he doesn't have that sustained type of playoff runs like Kobe and Wade do.

[penbeast0]

I count Iverson and Durant as SG, as well.

Iverson, sure. What years was Durant primarily the SG for his team?

[feyki]

I count Iverson and Durant as SG, as well.

Iverson, sure. What years was Durant primarily the SG for his team?

Rookie year, but it was a irony. Just find comic those conversations.

[dygaction]

Magic should be a choice as well, he was the SG during his first few years playing next to Norm Nixon.

Thanks, but even Magic himself would not be interested in competing for #2 SG. In fact Curry has been pushed around in PG/SG selection, and I will take him over anyone else here.

[Lou Fan]

For me it's between Wade and T-Mac. Went Wade as the safer pick.

[The High Cyde]

Peak Wade was the closest to Jordan we ever got.

[kcktiny]

If you include Jerry West, then he's my choice.

Good Choice.

Also looking at just peak years Sidney Moncrief. From 1980-81 to 1985-86 (ages 23-28, prior to his knee/foot injuries) the best SG in the league. Outstanding defender, good scorer, efficient on offense, drew a lot of fouls, excellent offensive rebounder. I'd take him over any SG not named Jordan in that age range.

[LAL1947]

Some people keep saying false things like Wade had a higher peak than Kobe... really, this myth needs to die. Also, to insist that Wade could or should have been the MVP in 2008-09 while simultaneously saying that Kobe shouldn't have been MVP in 2005-06... that's just asinine. Why? Well, Wade put up lesser numbers in 2008-09 compared to Kobe in 2005-06... and:

1) had a better team, that
2) played in a weaker conference, yet
3) still managed to finish with lower wins than Kobe's 2005-06 Lakers.

So to claim that this was a better year than Kobe's 2005-06 (or even 2006-07)... what is not adding up? Either they both deserved MVP in those respective years, or Kobe deserved it in 2005-06 and Wade didn't in 2008-09, but it cannot be Wade deserved it in 2008-09 and Kobe didn't in 2005-06.

I'm listing the Top 7 players from each squad because those are usually the most important to a team's success and so we don't get stuck in the weeds discussing positions #8-15. Feel free to do so if you want to though.

2005-06 Lakers (45 wins, 37 losses):
Kobe (27yo)
Lamar Odom (26yo)
Kwame Brown (23yo)
Smush Parker (24yo)
Chris Mihm (26yo)
Devean George (28 yo)
Luke Walton (25yo)

2008-09 Miami (43 wins, 39 losses):
Wade (27yo)
Shawn Marion (30yo)
Udonis Haslem (28yo)
Mario Chalmers (22yo)
Jermaine O'Neal (30yo)
Jamario Moon (28yo)
Michael Beasley (20yo)

Kobe was the best player among this group of 14 players... then Miami had the two next best (Wade and Marion)... then came Odom in #4... then it is possibly all 5 of the remaining Miami players before the Lakers players.

In addition to this, Kobe was elected to All-Defensive 1st Team in both 2005-06 and 2008-09... while Wade was in the 2nd Team in 2008-09.

It seems that some also think it's insulting to call Dwyane Wade the Clyde Drexler of the 2000-2010s or to call Drexler the Dwyane Wade of the 1980-1990s. What do you think Drexler was? Chopped liver? He was the 2nd best SG of that time, just like Dwyane Wade was the 2nd best SG in his time... and he was putting up similar numbers to Wade, but while playing in an era with less free-flowing offense and with harder fouls. If anything should be considered insulting or trolling, it should be to say that "Wade was the closest thing to MJ" (just no, he was not, that would be Kobe)... or to say Wade had a higher peak. Wade even played in a similar style to Drexler... go watch games of Drexler if you haven't, it's like watching the same player. Meanwhile the whole world says and knows that Kobe emulated MJ to a tee.

[LAL1947]

1) Kobe
2) West
3) T-Mac
4a) Wade
4b) Drexler
5) Harden

[Colbinii]

Some people keep saying false things like Wade had a higher peak than Kobe... really, this myth needs to die. Also, to insist that Wade could or should have been the MVP in 2008-09 while simultaneously saying that Kobe shouldn't have been MVP in 2005-06... that's just asinine. Either they both deserved it, or Kobe deserved it and Wade didn't, but not Wade deserved it and Kobe didn't. Why? Well, Wade put up lesser numbers in 2008-09 compared to Kobe in 2005-06... and:

1) had a better team, that
2) played in a weaker conference, yet
3) still managed to finish with lower wins than Kobe's 2005-06 Lakers?

What doesn't add up?

I'm listing the Top 7 players from each squad because those are usually the most important to a team's success and so we don't get stuck in the weeds discussing positions #8-15. Feel free to do so if you want to though.

2005-06 Lakers (45 wins, 37 losses):
Kobe (27yo)
Lamar Odom (26yo)
Kwame Brown (23yo)
Smush Parker (24yo)
Chris Mihm (26yo)
Devean George (28 yo)
Luke Walton (25yo)

2008-09 Miami (43 wins, 39 losses):
Wade (27yo)
Shawn Marion (30yo)
Udonis Haslem (28yo)
Mario Chalmers (22yo)
Jermaine O'Neal (30yo)
Jamario Moon (28yo)
Michael Beasley (20yo)

Kobe was the best player among this group of 14 players... then Miami had the two next best (Wade and Marion)... then came Odom in #4... then it is possibly all 5 of the remaining Miami players before the Lakers players.

In addition to this, Kobe was elected to All-Defensive 1st Team in both 2005-06 and 2008-09... while Wade was in the 2nd Team in 2008-09.

You seem to be omitting--or hopefully forgetting--some crucial details regarding the teams.

Shawn Marion only played 42 games for Miami before being shipped off.
Jermaine O'Neal and Jemario Moon played 27 and 26 games respectively.

If you sort the teams by minutes played we get this picture [Including WS/48 and BPM]

Mario Chalmers [2622, 0.095, -0.4]
Udonis Haslem [2560, 0.106, -2.3]
Michael Beasley [2002, 0.081, -1.7]
Daequan Cook [1833, 0.056, -2.1]
Shawn Marion [1516, .113, 0.4]
Joel Anthony [1046, 0.079, -2.7]
Chris Quinn [662, 0.104, -1.0]
Yakhoura Diawara [851, 0.029, -4.5]

Do you see how this looks significantly worse than what you originally posted?

[Colbinii]

1) Kobe
2) West
3) T-Mac
4a) Wade
4b) Drexler
5) Harden

I know Math isn't easy for everyone, but Harden is 6th here.

[Colbinii]

Some people keep saying false things like Wade had a higher peak than Kobe... really, this myth needs to die. Also, to insist that Wade could or should have been the MVP in 2008-09 while simultaneously saying that Kobe shouldn't have been MVP in 2005-06... that's just asinine. Either they both deserved it, or Kobe deserved it and Wade didn't, but not Wade deserved it and Kobe didn't. Why? Well, Wade put up lesser numbers in 2008-09 compared to Kobe in 2005-06... and:

1) had a better team, that
2) played in a weaker conference, yet
3) still managed to finish with lower wins than Kobe's 2005-06 Lakers?

What doesn't add up?

I'm listing the Top 7 players from each squad because those are usually the most important to a team's success and so we don't get stuck in the weeds discussing positions #8-15. Feel free to do so if you want to though.

2005-06 Lakers (45 wins, 37 losses):
Kobe (27yo)
Lamar Odom (26yo)
Kwame Brown (23yo)
Smush Parker (24yo)
Chris Mihm (26yo)
Devean George (28 yo)
Luke Walton (25yo)

2008-09 Miami (43 wins, 39 losses):
Wade (27yo)
Shawn Marion (30yo)
Udonis Haslem (28yo)
Mario Chalmers (22yo)
Jermaine O'Neal (30yo)
Jamario Moon (28yo)
Michael Beasley (20yo)

Kobe was the best player among this group of 14 players... then Miami had the two next best (Wade and Marion)... then came Odom in #4... then it is possibly all 5 of the remaining Miami players before the Lakers players.

In addition to this, Kobe was elected to All-Defensive 1st Team in both 2005-06 and 2008-09... while Wade was in the 2nd Team in 2008-09.

You seem to be omitting--or hopefully forgetting--some crucial details regarding the teams.

Shawn Marion only played 42 games for Miami before being shipped off.
Jermaine O'Neal and Jemario Moon played 27 and 26 games respectively.

If you sort the teams by minutes played we get this picture [Including WS/48 and BPM]

Mario Chalmers [2622, 0.095, -0.4]
Udonis Haslem [2560, 0.106, -2.3]
Michael Beasley [2002, 0.081, -1.7]
Daequan Cook [1833, 0.056, -2.1]
Shawn Marion [1516, .113, 0.4]
Joel Anthony [1046, 0.079, -2.7]
Chris Quinn [662, 0.104, -1.0]
Yakhoura Diawara [851, 0.029, -4.5]

Do you see how this looks significantly worse than what you originally posted?

I am adding the Lakers players.

For the Record, 2006 Lamar Odom is significantly better than 2009 Shawn Marion. It isn't comparable, not to mention he played over twice as many minutes with Kobe.

Lamar Odom [3221, 0.137, 2.7]
Smush Parker [2773, 0.100, 0.1]
Kwame Brown [1978, 0.088, -2.5]
Devean George [1542, 0.082, -0.8]
Chris Mihm [1541, 0.124, -1.9]
Brian Cook [1535, 0.142, -0.1]
Sasha Vujavec [1499, .066, -2.2]
Luke Walton [1333, 0.071, -1.1]

If anything, the Lakers look like they have more rotation level players in the rotation [Rotation player is approximately -2.0 BPM and above]. The Lakers have a nucleus with more minutes together and have...the clear cut best player in Lamar Odom [Not debatable].