Best non lebron/bird small forward peak

[falcolombardi]

Depending on your definition of wing/small forward which can be tricky with some players (bird for one) who are the best non lebron/bird peaks in this position?

i exclude those two since they probably would get 95+% of votes

also secondary and maybe more interesting question

excluding lebron, bird, dursnt, kawhi and julius who has the best small forward peak?

McGrady? Rick barry?, Havlicek? pippen?

[PistolPeteJR]

Went Durant. I want to choose ‘17 or ‘18 as his peak, but without looking at the numbers, I’m leaning toward ‘14.

[falcolombardi]

Went Durant. I want to choose ‘17 or ‘18 as his peak, but without looking at the numbers, I’m leaning toward ‘14.

other than the 5 guys i mention (lebron, durant, bird, kawhi and julius) who do you think peaked higher at the position?

[dreamshake]

'03 TMac probably would be my pick excluding the ones you mentioned. Shoutout to '97 Grant Hill too.

[kcktiny]

Other than those already mentioned, and looking at just peak value - Paul Arizin, Jack Twyman, Cliff Hagan, Rick Barry, Marques Johnson, Adrian Dantley, Larry Nance, Scottie Pippen, Andrei Kirilenko.

[70sFan]

I consider these three on similar level in terms of peak. I might take 1976 Julius because it's the most complete season of the bunch, more complete than any of Durant's or Kawhi's.

For the second question, it has to be between Baylor and Barry. I'm shocked that Elgin didn't get any mention, he was so good in 1961-63 period. Not sure who I'd take between the two, but they are on different tier peak-wise than Hondo or Pippen for me.

[HeartBreakKid]

I'd take Dr.J over Durant and Leonard. I think he's a bit more well rounded than them, and isn't very far behind as a scorer in the post season.


As for the best of the rest - here's a name that I think has SERIOUS consideration for best peak, Cliff Hagen.

But I'd edge out Elgin Baylor as #1. Basically I think Baylor and Hagen have the most dominant playoff performances of the guys left.

They're all really close on my all time peak list.

#40-50 is this

40) Elgin Baylor
41) Dwight Howard
42) Cliff Hagan
43) Tracy McGrady
44) John Havilcek
45) Rick Barry
46) Reggie Miller
47) Artis Gilmore
48) Dikembe Mutumbo
49) Paul Arizin
50) Alonzo Mourning

[Owly]

Depends what you mean.

Best peak by a player generally considered a SF overall over their career?
Greatest height whilst playing (primarily) as an SF?
There are other variations.

But regarding the latter Dirk and KG were regarded as SFs early on, opening up possibilities for the latter question.

And whilst Reference (typically seemingly often going on height) calls him a PF (and Gary Trent and Joe Smith small forwards), Hollinger regards him as primarily an SF in 2003 and I'm inclined to agree.

[migya]

Baylor was huge and so far ahead of others at his position in his era, it was alien like. Barry's insane over 30pt seasons were also aghast of everyone else at his position.

[70sFan]

Baylor was huge and so far ahead of others at his position in his era, it was alien like. Barry's insane over 30pt seasons were also aghast of everyone else at his position.

Forward position wasn't bad at all during the 1960s. We had Bob Pettit and Dolph Schayes early on, along with Paul Arizin and Cliff Hagan. Then we got John Havlicek and Rick Barry later (with Willis Reed playing a lot at forward spot as well). I don't think Baylor was gigantic outlier, though he was very good.

[LukaTheGOAT]

I'm picking Kawhi, particularly 2017 Kawhi.

He peaked higher in the PS in all the value metrics. I think he has a tight handle that allows him to get to his spots on the floor better than anyone. I also think he is the best defender here, and the playmaking is passable.

[70sFan]

I'm picking Kawhi, particularly 2017 Kawhi.

He peaked higher in the PS in all the value metrics. I think he has a tight handle that allows him to get to his spots on the floor better than anyone. I also think he is the best defender here, and the playmaking is passable.

Do you think Kawhi peaked higher on offense than Julius, Durant, Baylor and Barry (not counting defense)? I think he's pretty clearly the weakest passer and creator of these 5 players.

[DQuinn1575]

I consider these three on similar level in terms of peak. I might take 1976 Julius because it's the most complete season of the bunch, more complete than any of Durant's or Kawhi's.

For the second question, it has to be between Baylor and Barry. I'm shocked that Elgin didn't get any mention, he was so good in 1961-63 period. Not sure who I'd take between the two, but they are on different tier peak-wise than Hondo or Pippen for me.

I picked Baylor as best after Bird and LeBron

[LukaTheGOAT]

I'm picking Kawhi, particularly 2017 Kawhi.

He peaked higher in the PS in all the value metrics. I think he has a tight handle that allows him to get to his spots on the floor better than anyone. I also think he is the best defender here, and the playmaking is passable.

Do you think Kawhi peaked higher on offense than Julius, Durant, Baylor and Barry (not counting defense)? I think he's pretty clearly the weakest passer and creator of these 5 players.

I do or at least in the same general area. I think I would take Kawhi offensively. I think he is probably the best scorer of the group, though I will say I lack some familiarity with Elgin Baylor, so perhaps if I did a deep dive I would change my opinion. However, I feel comfortable putting Kawhi over Durant, so I do hold Kawhi in extremely high regard.

[migya]

Baylor was huge and so far ahead of others at his position in his era, it was alien like. Barry's insane over 30pt seasons were also aghast of everyone else at his position.

Forward position wasn't bad at all during the 1960s. We had Bob Pettit and Dolph Schayes early on, along with Paul Arizin and Cliff Hagan. Then we got John Havlicek and Rick Barry later (with Willis Reed playing a lot at forward spot as well). I don't think Baylor was gigantic outlier, though he was very good.

This thread is about SFs.

[70sFan]

Baylor was huge and so far ahead of others at his position in his era, it was alien like. Barry's insane over 30pt seasons were also aghast of everyone else at his position.

Forward position wasn't bad at all during the 1960s. We had Bob Pettit and Dolph Schayes early on, along with Paul Arizin and Cliff Hagan. Then we got John Havlicek and Rick Barry later (with Willis Reed playing a lot at forward spot as well). I don't think Baylor was gigantic outlier, though he was very good.

This thread is about SFs.

So Arizin, Hagan, Havlicek and Barry were not SFs?

[70sFan]

I'm picking Kawhi, particularly 2017 Kawhi.

He peaked higher in the PS in all the value metrics. I think he has a tight handle that allows him to get to his spots on the floor better than anyone. I also think he is the best defender here, and the playmaking is passable.

Do you think Kawhi peaked higher on offense than Julius, Durant, Baylor and Barry (not counting defense)? I think he's pretty clearly the weakest passer and creator of these 5 players.

I do or at least in the same general area. I think I would take Kawhi offensively. I think he is probably the best scorer of the group, though I will say I lack some familiarity with Elgin Baylor, so perhaps if I did a deep dive I would change my opinion. However, I feel comfortable putting Kawhi over Durant, so I do hold Kawhi in extremely high regard.

I think Kawhi has a strong case for the best scorer of the bunch, but I don't think it's clear. Durant himself is one of the best scorers ever and Julius peaked absurdly high as well. Baylor wasn't as efficient as these 3, but he had absurd volume and was the best passer of the bunch.

I don't know, it's very interesting discussion.

[SashimiLover]

I'm picking Kawhi, particularly 2017 Kawhi.

He peaked higher in the PS in all the value metrics. I think he has a tight handle that allows him to get to his spots on the floor better than anyone. I also think he is the best defender here, and the playmaking is passable.

Do you think Kawhi peaked higher on offense than Julius, Durant, Baylor and Barry (not counting defense)? I think he's pretty clearly the weakest passer and creator of these 5 players.

I do or at least in the same general area. I think I would take Kawhi offensively. I think he is probably the best scorer of the group, though I will say I lack some familiarity with Elgin Baylor, so perhaps if I did a deep dive I would change my opinion. However, I feel comfortable putting Kawhi over Durant, so I do hold Kawhi in extremely high regard.

I agree that 2017 Kawhi might have a a case over KD in any year. It's shame that he got injured after helping his team build a 20-point lead over the Warriors in game 1 in the Western conference final that year. The Spurs would probably won that game had Kawhi not been injured (Warrior only won like 2-3 points in the end after Kawhi went down).

We might have seen arguably the best of Kawhi that year (even compared to 2019).

[SickMother]

Pretty easy Durant for me, had the best single season & longest peak. I know he gets dinged by many for the super team stuff, but I think he's closer to LeBron & Larry than he is to Doctor & Kawhi among the Top 5 SF.

I give Doctor the slight edge for the #4 spot because Kawhi just hasn't played enough, never cracking 2500 minutes in any season. Durant gets the injury prone label, but he he lead the league in minutes three different seasons & cracked 2500 nine times.

Here are the best single season & multi season stretches for the Top 5 SF...

LeBron 2012-13: 31.6 PER | .640 TS% | 19.3 WS | .322 WS/48
LeBron 2008-13: 30.4 PER | .606 TS% | 88.0 WS | .296 WS/48

Larry 1987-88: 26.4 PER | .612 TS% | 15.0 WS | .243 WS/48
Larry 1984-88: 26.6 PER | .596 TS% | 61.7 WS | .242 WS/48

Durant 2013-14: 29.8 PER | .635 TS% | 19.2 WS | .295 WS/48
Durant 2012-17: 28.5 PER | .640 TS% | 69.4 WS | .282 WS/48

Doctor 1975-76: 28.7 PER | .569 TS% | 17.7 WS | .262 WS/48
Doctor 1973-76: 26.8 PER | .565 TS% | 51.8 WS | .247 WS/48

Kawhi 2015-16: 26.0 PER | .616 TS% | 13.7 WS | .277 WS/48
Kawhi 2015-17: 26.8 PER | .613 TS% | 27.4 WS | .270 WS/48

Next three are a little tighter & I wouldn't really quibble with any order, but I'd probably line them up something like...

Pippen 1996-97: 21.3 PER | .554 TS% | 13.1 WS | .203 WS/48
Pippen 1994-97: 22.0 PER | .552 TS% | 48.3 WS | .198 WS/48
(more of an Alpha Robin than a Beta Batman, but those rings)

Dantley 1983-83: 24.6 PER | .652 TS% | 14.6 WS | .235 WS/48
Dantley 1982-86: 24.0 PER | .635 TS% | 39.6 WS | .221 WS/48
(maybe the best single season & peak stretch, but no rings)

Baylor 1960-61: 28.2 PER | .498 TS% | 14.8 WS | .227 WS/48
Baylor 1959-63: 26.7 PER | .501 TS% | 48.6 WS | .203 WS/48
(TS% sticks out but it was a different era & he was the prototype)

Then pick two out of these three short peak SFs to round out the Top Ten...

Barry 1966-67: 24.2 PER | .531 TS% | 14.4 WS | .218 WS/48
Barry 1966-70: 25.5 PER | .561 TS% | 30.8 WS | .231 WS/48

Marques 1978-79: 23.9 PER | .586 TS% | 12.2 WS | .211 WS/48
Marques 1977-81: 22.3 PER | .579 TS% | 45.6 WS | .203 WS/48

Grant 1996-97: 25.5 PER | .556 TS% | 14.6 WS | .223 WS/48
Grant 1996-00: 23.7 PER | .546 TS% | 42.9 WS | .186 WS/48

[SickMother]

What really sets the Top 5 apart from the rest is they had secondary (or in LeBron & even Durant's case tertiary peaks) which were still better than the guys' from six down's very best...

LeBron 2004-08: 26.8 PER | .561 TS% | 59.5 WS | .220 WS/48
LeBron 2013-18: 27.7 PER | .611 TS% | 66.8 WS | .230 WS/48

Larry 1981-84: 23.7 PER | .557 TS% | 40.0 WS | .215 WS/48

Durant 2009-12: 25.3 PER | .601 TS% | 40.3 WS | .219 WS/48
Durant 2017-22: 25.4 PER | .639 TS% | 33.9 WS | .206 WS/48

Doctor 1979-83: 24.9 PER | .575 TS% | 50.6 WS | .223 WS/48

Kawhi 2018-21: 26.2 PER | .609 TS% | 27.0 WS | .229 WS/48

Like, there's a pretty solid case that LeBron has 3 of the Top 5 multi season SF peaks of all time.