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I personally think Issel is oft-forgotten and generally a bit underrated [both in mainstream, and here on RealGM].

The most apt recent comparison for Issel is Amar'e Stoudemire: REALLY good scoring bigs, fair rebounders, bad defenders. The big difference between them in career value [for me] is longevity.......Issel destroys STAT in longevity.

Not that they scored in exactly the same ways. Both were very good mid-range shooting bigs, and scored in that range. Nearer to the basket, though, Stoudemire was the explosive finisher, excellent as a roll-man. Issel scored inside via more basic post moves. He once even commented [paraphrasing here] that he was surprised he was able to score inside so regularly for so long, because he only ever had very basic post-moves that you could teach to a 7th-grader. But done well, and with good position, they're effective.

Another part of what made Issel such a good scorer, imo, was quickness of action [Larry Bird was similar, imo]: he didn't sit on the ball, giving time to his man to set his feet and the help defense time to get set and begin positioning/anticipating......Issel got the ball, and either the shot went up [immediately] or he made his move [immediately] (BEFORE the defense is set).

As to where he ranks all-time among centers [for me], I think it's outside the top 20 centers at this point, but probably inside the top 25. I haven't updated my list in at least a year, fwiw.....I suspect one or both of Gobert and Embiid are passing Issel by now.
Lemme' lay out a rough ordered list below (I count Pau, McAdoo, and Unseld as centers; Duncan, Hayes as PF's, fwiw)....

Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem

Robinson
Moses
Ewing
Mikan
Gilmore

Pau
Howard
Parish
Lanier
Dikembe

Jokic
Mourning
Unseld
Cowens
Thurmond

Reed
B.Wallace/McAdoo/Issel/Beaty
(Gobert and Embiid moving up above them???)

So roughly 25(ish) among centers, for me.

I don't have him close to that high because of his defensive deficiencies. As a PF, maybe, but the center position was so important defensively during his era and he was not a good defensive center. So, just as arguably great offensive centers today like Enes Kanter and Montrezl Harrell can't get starting jobs and Karl Anthony Towns rarely gets mentioned as a candidate for the best current center, I have a tough time giving a ton of credit to Issel as a center. I can see someone who ranks longevity and league average seasons more highly than I do ranking him higher though.

(Owly, I am not using Enes Kanter as a punchline or a direct comparison, only as a guy who consistently has very good offensive numbers but cannot find a consistent starting job).

Even offensively, Kentucky's best year was easily Issel's worst. Denver also didn't seem to lose much moving from Issel to Wayne Cooper or Danny Schayes. It's a shame because he was one of my favorite players growing up, but to me he just doesn't move the needle. He has value as a guy who played forever at or near his prime performance with a good attitude and he was a good interview but top 25 is a serious reach. I'm not sure that top 50 isn't a reach when he's up against the likes of Ed Macauley (50s), Walt Bellamy (60s), Mel Daniels (70s), Robert Parish (80s), Vlade Divac (90s), Jermaine O'Neal (00s), or Gobert (10s).

I don't think I'd have him inside top 25, maybe top 30 is a good call. His longevity is very good, but he's not that amazing for peak.

trex_8063 wrote:I personally think Issel is oft-forgotten and generally a bit underrated [both in mainstream, and here on RealGM].

The most apt recent comparison for Issel is Amar'e Stoudemire: REALLY good scoring bigs, fair rebounders, bad defenders. The big difference between them in career value [for me] is longevity.......Issel destroys STAT in longevity.

Not that they scored in exactly the same ways. Both were very good mid-range shooting bigs, and scored in that range. Nearer to the basket, though, Stoudemire was the explosive finisher, excellent as a roll-man. Issel scored inside via more basic post moves. He once even commented [paraphrasing here] that he was surprised he was able to score inside so regularly for so long, because he only ever had very basic post-moves that you could teach to a 7th-grader. But done well, and with good position, they're effective.

Another part of what made Issel such a good scorer, imo, was quickness of action [Larry Bird was similar, imo]: he didn't sit on the ball, giving time to his man to set his feet and the help defense time to get set and begin positioning/anticipating......Issel got the ball, and either the shot went up [immediately] or he made his move [immediately] (BEFORE the defense is set).

As to where he ranks all-time among centers [for me], I think it's outside the top 20 centers at this point, but probably inside the top 25. I haven't updated my list in at least a year, fwiw.....I suspect one or both of Gobert and Embiid are passing Issel by now.
Lemme' lay out a rough ordered list below (I count Pau, McAdoo, and Unseld as centers; Duncan, Hayes as PF's, fwiw)....

Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem

Robinson
Moses
Ewing
Mikan
Gilmore

Pau
Howard
Parish
Lanier
Dikembe

Jokic
Mourning
Unseld
Cowens
Thurmond

Reed
B.Wallace/McAdoo/Issel/Beaty
(Gobert and Embiid moving up above them???)

So roughly 25(ish) among centers, for me.

I think I'd already take Gobert over Issel. Beaty is another one I'd prefer over Issel.

What about these players:

Neil Johnston
Walt Bellamy
Bill Laimbeer
Rik Smits
Yao Ming
Marc Gasol
Brook Lopez?

Which one of those would you consider over Issel? To me, some of them are clearly ahead.

70sFan wrote:I think I'd already take Gobert over Issel. Beaty is another one I'd prefer over Issel.

Yeah, like I said Gobert may well be ahead by the completion of this season. I just haven't updated my list to include this year [actually, I didn't fully complete an update after last season]. Wouldn't be surprised at all though (although bear in mind that in my criteria, effective longevity or cumulative value above replacement level weighs heavily).

I feel Beaty's got to be at least a kinda close to Issel, and maybe the only reason I haven't put him right there [or even marginally ahead] is because I can only "buck convention" slowly. Baby steps toward a more accurate placing [*than what mainstream history has given him] for Zelmo Beaty.

*There is perhaps not a more forgotten or underrated player [in the mainstream] than Zelmo Beaty. Looking at his career, seriously how is he an almost complete unknown among mainstream fans?

70sFan wrote:What about these players:

Neil Johnston
Walt Bellamy
Bill Laimbeer
Rik Smits
Yao Ming
Marc Gasol
Brook Lopez?

Which one of those would you consider over Issel? To me, some of them are clearly ahead.

For me, none of these guys are ahead; Walt Bellamy is probably the only one kind of close, perhaps in part because he's the only one who is close to Issel in terms of longevity/durability. However, his near-complete lack of team success [even in those few instances he was surrounding by fair/decent talent], impact which seems to lag WAY behind his box imprint, and other concerns about his quality as a teammate (like how the Pistons literally GAVE him away) hold him back for me.

Laimbeer is perhaps not exactly close, but not far either. Underrated guy. A bigger part of the Pistons success [that defense] than he gets credit for. And tbh, if his prime had lasted two years longer than it actually did, I probably would have him above Issel.

Among the others, again bear in mind my emphasis on total career value.......so guys like Johnston and Ming are basically out of the running based upon that [well, also era is a consideration with Johnston].

To a lesser degree all of the others [aside from Bellamy] don't stack up to Issel in terms of longevity/durability either:

Lopez has 14 seasons, and I like how he's shown some versatility in his utility--->initially more of a scorer putting up big numbers for bad teams with questionable defense, transitioning to a defensive presence for a contender in Milwaukee, and also developing serious range to help spread the floor for Giannis. All good things.......but he's basically missed the entirety of THREE of his seasons. I think without those injury losses he might be in mix with, or even edging toward being ahead. But that hurts him in my accounting.

I've never been sold on Marc Gasol as a true DPOY level defender; and it's perhaps telling that in the same year he won DPOY, he actually didn't get All-D 1st [he only got 2nd Team......which is actually his one and ONLY All-D honor].
So......I can see the argument for Marc over Issel: if you're more bullish on his defense than I am, and longevity is less important to you than it is to me, then sure. But that's where I stand on him.

Smits, I'll be honest, I don't think is particularly close to not only Issel, but most of the other guys you've mentioned, too. He seems a bit out of place in this company. 12-year mostly durable career, but mostly a somewhat limited-minute player, in part because he was extremely foul-prone (never avg as much as even 31 mpg EVER in his career; was <26 mpg in six of 12 seasons). Somewhat weak rebounding center, and merely an OK defender overall, too. Not a passer/playmaker at all [a pinch turnover-prone, too]. His chief attribute was as a scorer......and even there he's merely "pretty good", but not great (WELL below Issel in this regard, while also not stacking up in longevity).
I just don't see him in the same league as these other guys.

trex_8063 wrote:Yeah, like I said Gobert may well be ahead by the completion of this season. I just haven't updated my list to include this year [actually, I didn't fully complete an update after last season]. Wouldn't be surprised at all though (although bear in mind that in my criteria, effective longevity or cumulative value above replacement level weighs heavily).

I feel Beaty's got to be at least a kinda close to Issel, and maybe the only reason I haven't put him right there [or even marginally ahead] is because I can only "buck convention" slowly. Baby steps toward a more accurate placing [*than what mainstream history has given him] for Zelmo Beaty.

*There is perhaps not a more forgotten or underrated player [in the mainstream] than Zelmo Beaty. Looking at his career, seriously how is he an almost complete unknown among mainstream fans?

Indeed, Beaty is simply forgotten these days. It's probably because he had his most success in the early years of ABA, which are simply unknown among mainstream fans. Artis Gilmore isn't respected enough either, but at least he played in the NBA in the 1980s and mid-70s was also a more remembered period for the ABA. Not to mention that people usually don't know anything about non-Celtics/Lakers/Sixers 1960s teams.

For me, none of these guys are ahead; Walt Bellamy is probably the only one kind of close, perhaps in part because he's the only one who is close to Issel in terms of longevity/durability. However, his near-complete lack of team success [even in those few instances he was surrounding by fair/decent talent], impact which seems to lag WAY behind his box imprint, and other concerns about his quality as a teammate (like how the Pistons literally GAVE him away) hold him back for me.

I also have concerns with Bellamy, but even with little team success Bellamy seemed to be a better basketball player than Issel to me. He was even more efficient scorer and slightly better defender (based on small sample of my eye-test at least, I could be wrong). Issel has shooting advantage, but I see Bellamy as the better offensive rebounder and probably more versatile passer (though there are reasons to believe that he was turnover prone, so maybe it was DeMarcus Cousins situation again). I think that they are quite close and Issel doesn't have clear longevity advantage either.

Laimbeer is perhaps not exactly close, but not far either. Underrated guy. A bigger part of the Pistons success [that defense] than he gets credit for. And tbh, if his prime had lasted two years longer than it actually did, I probably would have him above Issel.

I think the longevity is the only factor that keeps him lower than Issel. He was significantly better defender and depsite less versatile offensive game, he had his value on that end as well.

Lopez has 14 seasons, and I like how he's shown some versatility in his utility--->initially more of a scorer putting up big numbers for bad teams with questionable defense, transitioning to a defensive presence for a contender in Milwaukee, and also developing serious range to help spread the floor for Giannis. All good things.......but he's basically missed the entirety of THREE of his seasons. I think without those injury losses he might be in mix with, or even edging toward being ahead. But that hurts him in my accounting.

To be honest, I didn't realize how many games Lopez missed throughout his career. With that in mind, I wouldn't take him over Issel either. I think he was comfortably better player in his prime and I don't think he was ever bad defensive player (at least since he reached his true prime in 2013).

I've never been sold on Marc Gasol as a true DPOY level defender; and it's perhaps telling that in the same year he won DPOY, he actually didn't get All-D 1st [he only got 2nd Team......which is actually his one and ONLY All-D honor].
So......I can see the argument for Marc over Issel: if you're more bullish on his defense than I am, and longevity is less important to you than it is to me, then sure. But that's where I stand on him.

It seems that we definitely see Marc's defense differently, because I have him solidly as one of the best defenders of his generation and clear DPOY candidate. He was the centerpiece of elite Grizzlies defense and although he had very good defensive team around him, I don't think any other player was even close to him in terms of defensive impact.

Strong, very long, light on his feet despite the size, excellent help defender despite of lack of vertical contest and among the best post defenders ever. Seriously, I don't think I would be able to find more than 5 better one on one defenders against post scorers than Gasol and it's not his only strength. I think it's fair to say that he was UNDERRATED if anything during his prime.

About longevity - yeah, Issel has small edge. I think Gasol reached his prime already in 2010 and I don't think he was out of his prime until 2020. Yeah, his boxscore production wasn't the same in 2019, but he proved to have immense impact and Toronto didn't need him to score anymore. That's solid 10 seasons of prime (with 2014 one not being full) and I think Gasol was too good to take Issel over him because of that. I might overrate Gasol in general, but I always felt he was extremely underrated in his best seasons. I don't think I'd take Issel over him under any circumstances.

Smits, I'll be honest, I don't think is particularly close to not only Issel, but most of the other guys you've mentioned, too. He seems a bit out of place in this company. 12-year mostly durable career, but mostly a somewhat limited-minute player, in part because he was extremely foul-prone (never avg as much as even 31 mpg EVER in his career; was <26 mpg in six of 12 seasons). Somewhat weak rebounding center, and merely an OK defender overall, too. Not a passer/playmaker at all [a pinch turnover-prone, too]. His chief attribute was as a scorer......and even there he's merely "pretty good", but not great (WELL below Issel in this regard, while also not stacking up in longevity).
I just don't see him in the same league as these other guys.

Yeah, he might be a reach. I recently watched some of his games and started to appreciate him more than ever before, but he's probably still not in this class.

I suspect Issel has quite a lot range on where he lands depending on how much of his offensive advantage provided he gives back on D (and perceptions thereof). He's productive for a long time so that could be a lot of value, say, above average. But if one thinks he's giving a very large chunk of that back (perhaps more than all of it, depending on the year?) then you're getting into methodological issues about what's the value of a perhaps near league average starting center over a long time versus a Yao or a Daugherty.


For what it's worth - and it's not really my bag, and I too wouldn't instinctively tend to have him in this company - Smits's numbers held up pretty well in the playoffs for his career (and that with facing a few tough NYK defenses - otoh I think box-wise and if one were to just focus on rate production and the individual matchup and ignore other team stuff [not to advocate for doing that as getting the best view], he might have looked better than Ewing, at very least I'm pretty sure Smits scored efficiently in that 3 year run versus the Knicks). Not particularly banging that drum in general or versus Issel, just a possible general pro-Smits angle.

He was a superstar, I'd think. Was definitely OPOY level player and arguably top 10 player at his best. Among centers? Really don't know, Even was he a center?

feyki wrote:He was a superstar, I'd think. Was definitely OPOY level player and arguably top 10 player at his best. Among centers? Really don't know, Even was he a center?

In which years do you have him on superstar level and OPOY? I am not even sure he was ever top 5 center in the league to be honest.

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:He was a superstar, I'd think. Was definitely OPOY level player and arguably top 10 player at his best. Among centers? Really don't know, Even was he a center?

In which years do you have him on superstar level and OPOY? I am not even sure he was ever top 5 center in the league to be honest.

He was 22/10/3 with +15 rORtg player in between the 76/83. Of course, he was on the OPOY level, he was a player a tier downgraded Dirk.

feyki wrote:

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:He was a superstar, I'd think. Was definitely OPOY level player and arguably top 10 player at his best. Among centers? Really don't know, Even was he a center?

In which years do you have him on superstar level and OPOY? I am not even sure he was ever top 5 center in the league to be honest.

He was 22/10/3 with +15 rORtg player in between the 76/83. Of course, he was on the OPOY level, he was a player a tier downgraded Dirk.

In which years out of those he was top 3 center in the league?

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:

70sFan wrote:In which years do you have him on superstar level and OPOY? I am not even sure he was ever top 5 center in the league to be honest.

He was 22/10/3 with +15 rORtg player in between the 76/83. Of course, he was on the OPOY level, he was a player a tier downgraded Dirk.

In which years out of those he was top 3 center in the league?

Don't know and didn't think about it.

feyki wrote:

70sFan wrote:

feyki wrote:
He was 22/10/3 with +15 rORtg player in between the 76/83. Of course, he was on the OPOY level, he was a player a tier downgraded Dirk.

In which years out of those he was top 3 center in the league?

Don't know and didn't think about it.

If he's not there in any season, then either you don't have him as an OPOY superstar or you think his defense was so horrible that it limited his potential.

Of the guys today, KAT is the one who most reminds me of Issel. The KAT and The Horse. I'm fairly confident that if he were born in 1995 and grew up spamming as many 3's as possible, Issel could be a threat from deep. Both are/were good athletes who could run and jump, both could score like crazy, neither are/were known for their defense. They aren't exact matches of course, but similar enough to give the younger fans today who never saw Issel play an idea of the type of player he was.

I had always though of Issel as shooting a lot from midrange and outside, especially playing next to Gilmore, but someone here did a shot chart for him (in Denver, not Kentucky) and found he was shooting a lot of his shots from the post. Don't remember the sample size, years, or details, but it wasn't like Kat where he set up outside and used it to set up drives.

Older bigs with a rep for shooting from outside:
50s -- Clyde Lovellette
60s -- Zelmo Beaty
70s -- Bob McAdoo/ Dave Cowens
80s -- Jack Sikma/Bill Laimbeer

penbeast0 wrote:I had always though of Issel as shooting a lot from midrange and outside, especially playing next to Gilmore, but someone here did a shot chart for him (in Denver, not Kentucky) and found he was shooting a lot of his shots from the post. Don't remember the sample size, years, or details, but it wasn't like Kat where he set up outside and used it to set up drives.

Older bigs with a rep for shooting from outside:
50s -- Clyde Lovellette
60s -- Zelmo Beaty
70s -- Bob McAdoo/ Dave Cowens
80s -- Jack Sikma/Bill Laimbeer

Do you remember where to find this data?

Nope, just remember being surprised by it since I'd always though of him as more of a faceup shooter.

He is David Lee with deeper shooting range and a better shooter.
Bad Warriors Played David Lee out of position at center for a few years and Lee did OK.

Issel was not much of a rim protector or a great rebounder. Most of the bad centers in the 1980s were very imobile but very big. Now many of the bad centers are really power forwards. Issel would not be so undersized today but he would not have such a mobility advantage as he had in the 1980s. I did not see peak athleticism Issel in the 1970s.

Issell was a good player for the run and gun Nuggets that tried to outscore teams and hope that the visiting team would wear down from not being used to playing at a mile high elevation. Most years the Nuggets were bad defensively and Issel was part of that.

He was very, very good. He was a superstar in the ABA until age 27, when he moved to the NBA. Led the league in scoring in his rookie year, won a championship in 1975 playing pf alongside Artis Gilmore.