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I thought about this after seeing that ginobili had some ridiculous defensive plus minus stats (drapm) in his prime when i had never tought of him as an elite guard defender

which other players without elite physical tools or without the "look" (as in huge steals/blocks, crazy 1vs1 lockdowns) were actually fantastic or elite defenders?

which players seem better defenders thsn they actually were impact wise?

I honestly think (pre-injury) Klay has become an underrated defender at this point. He didn't rack up steals/blocks, and he certainly wasn't as good as Draymond/Iguodala were, but having the foot speed to stay in front of PGs most nights and the strength/size to switch 1-4 comfortably made him a pretty useful defender I think

Jokic this year. He has quietly made a giant leap.

<- this guy

Muggsy Bogues. At 5'3, you wonder if he could guard anyone, I mean Spud Webb has a 3 inch height advantage on him. But he was thick, strong, and superquick (else he wouldn't have had a shot at the NBA no matter how skilled) and he worked at being a annoying pest defensively. Sure, he wasn't going to block your shot, but Kenny Anderson said he was the guy he hatest most to play because no dribble was safe.

Sikma
Jason Collins
Nene
Millsap
Tatum

Ginobili had so many crazy defensive highlights why wouldn't you think he was a great defender

PJ Tucker, I guess

Wes Unseld.

Dave DeBusschere is the first option here. He wasn't huge or long and his athletic ability isn't very pronounced for untrained eye.

He's on the short list of the greatest defenders ever at his positon. There were not many players I would count more on than him on defensive end.

parsnips33 wrote:I honestly think (pre-injury) Klay has become an underrated defender at this point. He didn't rack up steals/blocks, and he certainly wasn't as good as Draymond/Iguodala were, but having the foot speed to stay in front of PGs most nights and the strength/size to switch 1-4 comfortably made him a pretty useful defender I think

I don't Klay was underrated. He was regarded as the best two-way SG in the league, which is praise enough. He was not an elite defender as he was still prone to limitations in awareness and reading plays. Still a good defender pre-injury though.

KobesScarf wrote:Ginobili had so many crazy defensive highlights why wouldn't you think he was a great defender

it was my fault of assuming a not hyper athletic,/super long or tall perimeter defender is probably not in the level of great defenders who have those physical tools

spanishninja wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:I honestly think (pre-injury) Klay has become an underrated defender at this point. He didn't rack up steals/blocks, and he certainly wasn't as good as Draymond/Iguodala were, but having the foot speed to stay in front of PGs most nights and the strength/size to switch 1-4 comfortably made him a pretty useful defender I think

I don't Klay was underrated. He was regarded as the best two-way SG in the league, which is praise enough. He was not an elite defender as he was still prone to limitations in awareness and reading plays. Still a good defender pre-injury though.

I think it's fair to say he overrated at the height of the Warriors doing their thing, but I think the pendulum has swung back too far, at least on this board IMO

parsnips33 wrote:

spanishninja wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:I honestly think (pre-injury) Klay has become an underrated defender at this point. He didn't rack up steals/blocks, and he certainly wasn't as good as Draymond/Iguodala were, but having the foot speed to stay in front of PGs most nights and the strength/size to switch 1-4 comfortably made him a pretty useful defender I think

I don't Klay was underrated. He was regarded as the best two-way SG in the league, which is praise enough. He was not an elite defender as he was still prone to limitations in awareness and reading plays. Still a good defender pre-injury though.

I think it's fair to say he overrated at the height of the Warriors doing their thing, but I think the pendulum has swung back too far, at least on this board IMO

swung back how? up until his return, he still had the same kind of reputation as a defender as he did pre-injury, even with the uncertainty about how much of that might be impacted by the two major leg injuries. I certainly did not think he was a bum on defense until he actually came back anyway.

D'Angelo Williams this year

parsnips33 wrote:

spanishninja wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:I honestly think (pre-injury) Klay has become an underrated defender at this point. He didn't rack up steals/blocks, and he certainly wasn't as good as Draymond/Iguodala were, but having the foot speed to stay in front of PGs most nights and the strength/size to switch 1-4 comfortably made him a pretty useful defender I think

I don't Klay was underrated. He was regarded as the best two-way SG in the league, which is praise enough. He was not an elite defender as he was still prone to limitations in awareness and reading plays. Still a good defender pre-injury though.

I think it's fair to say he overrated at the height of the Warriors doing their thing, but I think the pendulum has swung back too far, at least on this board IMO

i think the biggest issue with klay is that hisw apparent impact per advanced stats or simply team defensive improvement in warriors defense doesnt seem in line with his reputation or "eye test"

it may be noise, but klay seems one of those guys whose strong 1vs1 defense makes them seem more impactful than they are

Doncic and Jokic

spanishninja wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:

spanishninja wrote:
I don't Klay was underrated. He was regarded as the best two-way SG in the league, which is praise enough. He was not an elite defender as he was still prone to limitations in awareness and reading plays. Still a good defender pre-injury though.

I think it's fair to say he overrated at the height of the Warriors doing their thing, but I think the pendulum has swung back too far, at least on this board IMO

swung back how? up until his return, he still had the same kind of reputation as a defender as he did pre-injury, even with the uncertainty about how much of that might be impacted by the two major leg injuries. I certainly did not think he was a bum on defense until he actually came back anyway.

I think the point I'm trying to make is broader than just Klay.

There's guys that are really good at defense because they are captial-D Disruptive - think Draymond or Giannis or Thybulle. Their impact on the defense is active, they usually create a lot of deflections/turnovers, they are as liable to make a play off the ball as they are on it.

Then there are guys like Klay. I think PJ Tucker also falls into this same type of category. The best way I can think to describe their defense is Additive, although that doesn't feel precise enough. They are positionally sound, positionally versatile, strong enough to not be easily moved, and rarely make mistakes on the defensive end. I don't think they are generally as impactful as Disruptive players, and they likely are not anchoring a defense on their own. But I do think the value of this type of defender can be more easily overlooked.

parsnips33 wrote:

spanishninja wrote:

parsnips33 wrote:
I think it's fair to say he overrated at the height of the Warriors doing their thing, but I think the pendulum has swung back too far, at least on this board IMO

swung back how? up until his return, he still had the same kind of reputation as a defender as he did pre-injury, even with the uncertainty about how much of that might be impacted by the two major leg injuries. I certainly did not think he was a bum on defense until he actually came back anyway.

I think the point I'm trying to make is broader than just Klay.

There's guys that are really good at defense because they are captial-D Disruptive - think Draymond or Giannis or Thybulle. Their impact on the defense is active, they usually create a lot of deflections/turnovers, they are as liable to make a play off the ball as they are on it.

Then there are guys like Klay. I think PJ Tucker also falls into this same type of category. The best way I can think to describe their defense is Additive, although that doesn't feel precise enough. They are positionally sound, positionally versatile, strong enough to not be easily moved, and rarely make mistakes on the defensive end. I don't think they are generally as impactful as Disruptive players, and they likely are not anchoring a defense on their own. But I do think the value of this type of defender can be more easily overlooked.

yeah that makes sense. Somebody who is earlier in the trajectory but is gonna be in the same overlooked category is Booker. people who watch him play are seeing a lot of the same things you said about Klay, although he is not on that level yet.

Pau's defensive impact on the Lakers is probably underrated. Dirk was subtly decent I believe. I'm not sure Love was ever as bad as people think. I'm not sure he could have played on 2016 Cavs playoff defense if he was.